[Wilshire]

I think TTT is just an extension of the probability trance. Just based on before/after. Though, I don't think the outcome of TTT is set. There's room for divergence still, but it takes a titanic effort - like say the usurpation of an entire world...

Put pretty sure thats beyond the scope of this topic.

[H]

I think TTT is just an extension of the probability trance. Just based on before/after. Though, I don't think the outcome of TTT is set. There's room for divergence still, but it takes a titanic effort - like say the usurpation of an entire world...

Put pretty sure thats beyond the scope of this topic.

Well, presumably the Thousandfold Thought is what lead to Moe calling Kellhus to him, so in understanding the confrontation between them, I think understanding what the Thought really is would actually be key.  In fact, not just key but The Key.

For example, if The Thought is really just an extended Probability Trance, then we could surmise that Moe's failing was to not prepare for the slim margin that Kellhus ended up walking.  Of course, that's elementary, naturally Moe had to "play the odds" and so he ended up failing as a result of a highly improbable outcome, so it is hard to fault him here.

However, if the Thought really is external, that is, it's source is actually beyond Moe, then there are a host of other implications here.  One, what is the source?  Two, what is it's aim and is it different than Moe's stated intentions?

This all presupposes that the confrontation was not a success for Moe however.  We don't know if he planned to die there or not, in reality.

I personally do not believe that the Thought follows Before and After, because several key elements hardly fit.  Like allowing Akka to live, Fanayal to live, Psatma to live, etc, seem to be very bad ideas based on past experiance.  Their usefulness is only proven After, justifying the Before, which would seem to violate the principle.

[Wilshire]

Hopefully I'll get my work done earlier today and will revisit this conversation . I like TTT discussions. I'm not entirely sure I have re-evaluated my thoughts on the Thought post PoN (avoided saying post-TTT as that would have been confusing, lol). As such, I'll need some time to muse.

[themerchant]

Also Moe's description of how the thought came to him mirrors the quote at the start of the series about a thought coming when it wants not when "i" want.

So implies some sort of agency in the thought, and maybe perhaps the thousand fold thought.

I think it is predetermined but there is a way to by-pass that, and things like seswatha heart are attempts to do it.

We have 3 prophecies (which could be attempts as well)

1. Celemonas one. Which has been given further context by Akka's dreams, although we now know they have been deceiving him... arghh can't work anything out.

2. one Aurang talks about in WLW. Possibly involving mimara.

3. One Sorweel hears about in Ishterbenith

The three most important characters ( for me ) all have some sort of mysterious voice guiding them.

Kellhus. Been hearing shit since the end of TWP.  Both Celemonas and nonman prophecy name him in some capacity

Akka. Dreams leading him across Earwa

Mimara. sees full histories and current levels of damnation. The eye informs her stances.

[MSJ]

@Profgrape

An implacable fury swelled through Sorweel’s limbs, an urge to throttle— to strike! But it was cracked for the absence of foes, broken into aimless urgency. “They seek …” he said, using calm words to force calm into his demeanour. “They seek to save themselves from … from damnation?”“You know this as well,” Oinaral said. “You only balk because of its implication …”“Implication? What implication?” He could scream, such was the absurdity of it all. “Because it means the Anasûrimbor is An implacable fury swelled through Sorweel’s limbs, an urge to throttle— to strike! But it was cracked for the absence of foes, broken into aimless urgency. “They seek …” he said, using calm words to force calm into his demeanour. “They seek to save themselves from … from damnation?”“You know this as well,” Oinaral said. “You only balk because of its implication …”“Implication? What implication?” He could scream, such was the absurdity of it all. “Because it means the Anasûrimbor is.almost certainly your Saviour.” And there it was. The Amiolas need not blot his sense of breathing. The Mother-of-Birth had doomed him to assassinate a Living Prophet, the true Saviour.

[themerchant]

Here is the bit i'm talking about

page 244-245 hardback

"Everyone knows of the great ruiner," Sorweel retorted. "the question is how you could you know he returns? Or that the Anusrimbor alone can forestall him?"

"It has been prophe-"

"I have been prophecied"

[MSJ]

Here is the bit i'm talking about

page 244-245 hardback

"Everyone knows of the great ruiner," Sorweel retorted. "the question is how you could you know he returns? Or that the Anusrimbor alone can forestall him?"

"It has been prophe-"

"I have been prophecied"

Oh, ok. Even more interesting.

[H]

The question then is when does True Prophecy end and viramsata begin?  Is there even a line?  Or is there even such a thing as True Prophecy?

Here is the bit i'm talking about

page 244-245 hardback

"Everyone knows of the great ruiner," Sorweel retorted. "the question is how you could you know he returns? Or that the Anusrimbor alone can forestall him?"

"It has been prophe-"

"I have been prophecied"

I'm confused why Sorweel is confused.  Why couldn't Oinaral know of the Celmomian Prophecy?  Hell, he even says he was at Eleneöt.

[Wilshire]

Also Moe's description of how the thought came to him mirrors the quote at the start of the series about a thought coming when it wants not when "i" want.

So implies some sort of agency in the thought, and maybe perhaps the thousand fold thought.

That's something from Kant or some other philosopher dude. I won't pretend to understand it, but I will say that I don't think it applies to the books. So, no, I don't believe it implies that.

I think it is predetermined but there is a way to by-pass that, and things like seswatha heart are attempts to do it.

You think Seswatha grasped the thousandfold thought, mused on it like a dunyain, and was attempting to circumvent it? That seems like a huge stretch to me.

We have 3 prophecies (which could be attempts as well)

1. Celemonas one. Which has been given further context by Akka's dreams, although we now know they have been deceiving him... arghh can't work anything out.

2. one Aurang talks about in WLW. Possibly involving mimara.

3. One Sorweel hears about in Ishterbenith

The Celemomian Prophecy has always been 2 parts. Part 1 has been fulfilled - that an anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. Confirmed with Akka's dreams, though the context changed slightly, so now we know that Kellhus IS the end of the world, according to the dream.
Part 2, that the world ends with Seswatha, is now just more confusing. How could Kellhus be the end of the world and also Seswatha. Doesn't make any sense, but thats what we have. I've taken this to mean, for years, that when Seswatha dies, the world ends, and since we've got some weird stuff going on with the heart, then that point is either when the heart is destroied, or when all the Mandati die.

Aurang's prophecy we have so little information about its hard to say anything about it. Mimara/TJE/Something is involved in a prophecy which may or may not be false.

Don't really remember the context of the Sorweel thing you mentioned, even after the quotes provided.

The three most important characters ( for me ) all have some sort of mysterious voice guiding them.

Kellhus. Been hearing shit since the end of TWP.  Both Celemonas and nonman prophecy name him in some capacity

Akka. Dreams leading him across Earwa

Mimara. sees full histories and current levels of damnation. The eye informs her stances.

Something's going on there, yeah.

[Francis Buck]

The three most important characters ( for me ) all have some sort of mysterious voice guiding them.

Kellhus. Been hearing shit since the end of TWP.  Both Celemonas and nonman prophecy name him in some capacity

Akka. Dreams leading him across Earwa

Mimara. sees full histories and current levels of damnation. The eye informs her stances.

Something's going on there, yeah.

Achamian = Past

Mimara = Present

Kellhus = Future

Dunno what that means but it looks cool.

ETA: Something to bear in mind (not only because I see other people forget it so much as I myself do) is that Mimara doesn't technically have the Judging Eye, her baby does -- the eye of the unborn. I don't really know how that plays in but it's too specific not to be a hook for something down the line.

[themerchant]

Also Moe's description of how the thought came to him mirrors the quote at the start of the series about a thought coming when it wants not when "i" want.

So implies some sort of agency in the thought, and maybe perhaps the thousand fold thought.

That's something from Kant or some other philosopher dude. I won't pretend to understand it, but I will say that I don't think it applies to the books. So, no, I don't believe it implies that.

I think it is predetermined but there is a way to by-pass that, and things like seswatha heart are attempts to do it.

You think Seswatha grasped the thousandfold thought, mused on it like a dunyain, and was attempting to circumvent it? That seems like a huge stretch to me.

We have 3 prophecies (which could be attempts as well)

1. Celemonas one. Which has been given further context by Akka's dreams, although we now know they have been deceiving him... arghh can't work anything out.

2. one Aurang talks about in WLW. Possibly involving mimara.

3. One Sorweel hears about in Ishterbenith

The Celemomian Prophecy has always been 2 parts. Part 1 has been fulfilled - that an anasurimbor will return at the end of the world. Confirmed with Akka's dreams, though the context changed slightly, so now we know that Kellhus IS the end of the world, according to the dream.
Part 2, that the world ends with Seswatha, is now just more confusing. How could Kellhus be the end of the world and also Seswatha. Doesn't make any sense, but thats what we have. I've taken this to mean, for years, that when Seswatha dies, the world ends, and since we've got some weird stuff going on with the heart, then that point is either when the heart is destroied, or when all the Mandati die.

Aurang's prophecy we have so little information about its hard to say anything about it. Mimara/TJE/Something is involved in a prophecy which may or may not be false.

Don't really remember the context of the Sorweel thing you mentioned, even after the quotes provided.

The three most important characters ( for me ) all have some sort of mysterious voice guiding them.

Kellhus. Been hearing shit since the end of TWP.  Both Celemonas and nonman prophecy name him in some capacity

Akka. Dreams leading him across Earwa

Mimara. sees full histories and current levels of damnation. The eye informs her stances.

Something's going on there, yeah.

Sorry never explained it properly

No i think Seswatha was told or grasped that "all this had happened before". Or in other words things were progressing to a pre-determined end point. So the heart and the dreams are ostensibly to keep the fanaticism of the mandate but they are also an attempt at influencing the pre-determined outcome in some way i'm not smart enough to figure out.

[themerchant]

Also Moe's description of how the thought came to him mirrors the quote at the start of the series about a thought coming when it wants not when "i" want.

So implies some sort of agency in the thought, and maybe perhaps the thousand fold thought.

That's something from Kant or some other philosopher dude. I won't pretend to understand it, but I will say that I don't think it applies to the books. So, no, I don't believe it implies that.

"I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit-namely, A thought comes when it will, not when I will.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

It's at the start of the book and describes the main theme of the book to a T, imo. I think in the false sun story this phenomenon is referred to as "Onkis".

As Moe says "i was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to me"

I went and got the full quote longer to add context

"“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?”
“From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared."

[Francis Buck]

Good stuff, Merchant. That Moe line is definitely no accident, and I agree with your interpretation thus far.

The False Sun really is a treasure trove of hints and clues IMO, far more than its credited for (and its pretty well credited).

[Monkhound]

You think Seswatha grasped the thousandfold thought, mused on it like a dunyain, and was attempting to circumvent it? That seems like a huge stretch to me.

Interesting thought.
The way Seswatha is connected to the Mandate via the Dreams (1 on *unaccounted number*, let's say 100), looks a bit like the inverted way Kellhus is connected to The Voice / The Legion Within (100 on 1), though. Dreams and hallucinations aren't so different from each other, after all.

[H]

"I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit-namely, A thought comes when it will, not when I will.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

It's at the start of the book and describes the main theme of the book to a T, imo. I think in the false sun story this phenomenon is referred to as "Onkis".

As Moe says "i was quite unprepared when the first of the thought came to me"

I went and got the full quote longer to add context

"“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?”
“From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared."

Indeed, I think that is a big clue to the Thought being external to Moe, not a creation of his.

It could also explain why Moe "had" to die, since the Thought was always from a place beyond him, it needn't always include him.  In other words, he is simply another cog in the machine, not the engine (although he played a role of that for a time).