Serwe

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MSJ

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« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2016, 07:18:49 pm »
Do we know if anyone besides Serwe saw Kel's halos before the circumfixion?  Or only after?  I don't remember.

Esme does, that I'm sure of. And, I believe there are others also. I believe Geoffrobro is right, Martemus does see the haloes then.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2016, 07:21:05 pm »
I want to say people started seeing them after he had been doing his nightly sermons.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2016, 07:31:02 pm »
I think your right Wilshire. Here is the text related to Martemus at Anwurat.

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The Warrior-Prophet smiled, and his eyes glittered with something fierce and unconquerable. “Conviction, General Martemus …” He gripped his shoulder with a haloed hand. “War is conviction.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Bolivar

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« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2016, 01:29:56 am »
There was a passage in TTT that I thought explained a lot of what is going on with the characters in this book but especially Serwe:

Quote
  One night during the infancy of the Holy War—and for reasons Cnaiür could no longer recall—the sorcerer had taken a crude parchment map of the Three Seas and pressed it flat over a copper laver filled with water. He had poked holes of varying sizes throughout the parchment, and when he held his oil lantern high to complement the firelight, little beads of water glinted across the tanned landscape. Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside leaked into the world.
  This, he had said, was madness.

...

  The bead had been broken—there could be no doubt of that. According to the sorcerer, madness all came down to the question of origins. If the divine possessed him, he would be some kind of visionary or prophet. If the demonic …
  The sorcerer’s demonstration seemed indisputable. It accorded with his nagging intuitions. It explained, among other things, the strange affinities between madness and insight—why the soothsayers of one age could be the bedlamites of another. The problem, of course, was the Dûnyain.
  He contradicted all of it.

So this is why Achamian is having the distorted dreams, Cnaiur is near unkillable, Saubon fought off the Coyauri single-handedly at Mengedda, and Kellhus begins hearing voices and seeing halos after the Circumfixion.

The general impression I got on the reread was that Serwe's captivity with Cnaiur was the straw that broke the camels back - the reason she could be so deluded as to think her child is Kellhus' is because she has actually gone insane.

Quote
  Dread.
  Tyrannizing her days. Stalking her sleep. Dread that made her thoughts skitter, flit from terror to terror, that made her bowels quail, her hands perpetually shake, her face utterly slack for fear that one crimped muscle might cause the whole to collapse.

...

  None of this is happening, she thought. No one suffered like this. Not really.
  She feared she might vomit for dread.

There's also a passage illustrating how all of this had built up to this collapse:

Quote
  Her father, pulling her half-naked from her blankets, thrusting her into the callous arms of a stranger. “You belong to these men now, Serwë. May our Gods watch over you.”
  Peristus, looking up from his scrolls, frowning with amused incredulity. “Perhaps, Serwë, you’ve forgotten what you are. Give me your hand, child.”The Gaunum idols, leering at her with faces of stone. Sneering silence.
  Panteruth, wiping her spit from his face, drawing his knife. “The track you follow is narrow, bitch, and you know it not . . . I will show you.”
  Cnaiür, clenching her wrists tighter than any manacles. “Mend yourself to my will, girl. Utterly. I will tolerate no remainder. I will stamp out all that does not submit.”

So it would seem Serwe's other-worldliness stems from her mental state, that the awe others felt around her is legitimate. Regarding the "origins" as Cnaiur put it, whether she was possessed by the divine or demonic, I would say divine, as she finally began to mean something as she always wished, rising to a prominent place, desired by others, and possibly helping Kellhus' shrial knights prophecy come true at Mengedda. This puts into perspective why, after Kellhus sacrifices her, he shortly thereafter has visions of the No-God, suggesting the origins of his possession are demonic.

Of course, as Cnaiur notes, Kellhus' mastery of men contradicts the possibility of free will and meaning in Earwa. Perhaps the way these individuals seem different to others is just the spark of madness in their eye or the witness' own delusion. But if there is some system of the Outside leaking in, it seems this would explain it.


H

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« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2016, 12:25:30 pm »
Well, I think you are on to something, in the sense that some kind of madness afflicts nearly everyone in the series.

Serwe is most certainly delusional, but intentionally so, she has essentially deluded herself, because it's what she needs, psychologically.  She can't accept the abuse, the meaninglessness of what she is to Cnaiur and the senselessness of what the world has done to her, so she latches on to Kellhus as the font of meaning.  New meaning, a new beginning, viramsata through and through.

Not that I don't believe that the Outside does leak in, from time to time.  I think Kellhus is effected by it.  I think Akka is too.  Less so for Cnaiur, because his madness is different to me.  More world-born, Cnaiur and Serwe's brand of "madness" is born of the world's cruelty and their attempts to overcome that with what little they have.  Kellhus believes he guides, but is really guided and Akka is guided, but not to where he thinks he is.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

mrganondorf

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« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2016, 03:36:27 am »
Well, what is Serwe's "power" is as the prototypical believer.  In fact, so typical that she is one of the most powerful believers ever.  In Earwa, this actually translates to something of real power.  The "miracle" of the Circumfix is the transference to Kellhus of her power, that is, the belief-the-can-change-the-world.

I doubt if this is a new idea though and is possibly a derail of what you guys were talking about.

H, I want to like this idea, but I can't shake the part about her getting kilt...  Her 'power' is not, um, effective in terms of gratifying her desire not to bleed all over the place, no?

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« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2016, 10:37:52 am »
Well, what is Serwe's "power" is as the prototypical believer.  In fact, so typical that she is one of the most powerful believers ever.  In Earwa, this actually translates to something of real power.  The "miracle" of the Circumfix is the transference to Kellhus of her power, that is, the belief-the-can-change-the-world.

I doubt if this is a new idea though and is possibly a derail of what you guys were talking about.

H, I want to like this idea, but I can't shake the part about her getting kilt...  Her 'power' is not, um, effective in terms of gratifying her desire not to bleed all over the place, no?

Well, proof is in the pudding, huh?  Haha, indeed, any "power" she has most certainly was not enough to save her.  But that doesn't mean she doesn't posses some kind of power.  For example, Kellhus has power and yet can never heal anyone.  Limited power is still power though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira