The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Elser on December 30, 2013, 09:26:14 pm
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Hey, I've been recently wondering about this and I'd love some of your input.
What would a individual like Kellhus look like in modern times?
What would his goals be?
He would seek to master his circumstances but what would that mean in our world? Would he seek to save us from self destruction or isolate himself in the path to enlightment?
Which path would he follow as means to power?
A technology entrepreneur building a megacorporation, a politician manipulating foes & allies, a cult leader, a revolutionary with a long trail of warcrimes behind him?
In the absence of magic & weak religion, which forces would he use?
Science, media, money, education, heidegger's and nietszche's philosophy?
What would his skills look like, what would the realistic basis for them be?
Uncanny mastery of cognitive biases, genetic engineering, nootropics, a very manipulative mother?
Where would he come from?
A Zen monastery, abject poverty, an insanely privileged family, an experimental boarding school?
Thinking of examples in fiction maybe ozymandias (Adrián Veidt) in Watchmen or the protagonist in the Limitless film, does anyone think of others?
Anyways I think this is a fun analytical excercise.
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Adrian Veidt is probably a good guess. Money + martial prowess/adventurousness. Something like Richard Branson crossed with Vladimir Putin (minus the Bond-villian stuff), with a focus on monopolizing and solidifying a technocracy. Controlling the media would be key, of course.
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I lol'd, Meyna.
Elser, I found you the original version of this thread from over at Zombie Three Seas (http://forum.three-seas.com/): What if Kellhus was one of us? (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/3291). Digging through ZTS is always fun so thanks for another opportunity to do so.
Since there we didn't get past a Dunyain in our world being Anasurimbor Hilton/Spears, (then) newly-elected Obama, or a religious leader, I shall try and do your new questions some justice.
Hey, I've been recently wondering about this and I'd love some of your input.
1) What would a individual like Kellhus look like in modern times?
2) What would his goals be?
3) He would seek to master his circumstances but what would that mean in our world? 3.5) Would he seek to save us from self destruction or isolate himself in the path to enlightment?
4) Which path would he follow as means to power?
5) A technology entrepreneur building a megacorporation, a politician manipulating foes & allies, a cult leader, a revolutionary with a long trail of warcrimes behind him?
6) In the absence of magic & weak religion, which forces would he use?
6.5) Science, media, money, education, heidegger's and nietszche's philosophy?
7) What would his skills look like, what would the realistic basis for them be?
7.5) Uncanny mastery of cognitive biases, genetic engineering, nootropics, a very manipulative mother?
8 ) Where would he come from?
8.5) A Zen monastery, abject poverty, an insanely privileged family, an experimental boarding school?
9) Thinking of examples in fiction maybe ozymandias (Adrián Veidt) in Watchmen or the protagonist in the Limitless film, does anyone think of others?
Anyways I think this is a fun analytical excercise.
1) As I wrote there, we have no Cnaiur to warn us of Kellhus. So we'd probably not be able to understand a Dunyain in our world as we do a Dunyain in the narrative. We would always perceive the Dunyain from inside its lies.
2) Dominion over all. Ultimately, self-preservation or, perhaps, still questing for the Absolute; upload his consciousness to some kind of indestructible interstellar computer-ship or something?
3) Considering we are his circumstances, he would dominate us. Until the whole world was tractable, he would work to make it so. To be honest, this would probably amount to him conducting a massive campaign of eugenics and genocide to bring humans down to a more manageable number; he'd probably see a number of us as quite useless and mostly unnecessary.
3.5) We are tools. Kellhus of the narrative might have been corrupted to perceive that saving humans is an end itself, but I'd say we'd be means only here.
4) Any and all. He'd simply come prepackaged to fill the niche of our choosing. The world is in desperate need of someone to display a basic sense of human dignity; just take a look at the ridiculous fervour over a Pope acting Christ-like :o?!
5) Meyna had this one down, though I'm honestly not sure that Kellhus himself would even need to be visible in the sense of public figures. He'd be like the ultimate puppet-master in our world. As Zarathinius wrote in the ZTS thread, "the Secret Global Conspiracy® would try to draft him." But he'd probably dominate them as well.
6/6.5) He'd master the hard sciences and use his advances as he saw fit. He'd probably read all the "humanities" texts but only as it would make people easier to control.
7/7.5) As per 6/6.5, he'd master and expand on math, biology, chemistry in ways we can't yet fathom. Then he'd do whatever he wanted with his abilities.
8 ) If he's not a Dunyain like the books, then he'd either be a genetic anomaly or from affluent means.
9) That's the great thing about Kellhus. He's a fairly original and unique character. Laplace's Demon but that isn't fiction, per say.
I think something this thread (and the other) inevitably hit upon is that without goals (questing for the Absolute is a gamble in our world), it is very difficult to surmise why Kellhus would use us for anything. Unless the Dunyain are invariable creatures of domination, simply dominating circumstances endlessly.
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In regards to the question of other fictitious examples, I'd throw in the Judge from Blood Meridian. Although his overarching philosophy is different, he too seeks to "dominate all things", so that nothing in Creation exists without his permission (and, thus, he constantly reads in order to gather knowledge).
Hell, he even has a "miracle in the desert" moment, where he shows the men how to make gunpowder.
I don't think these similarities are a coincidence either, given Bakker's clearly massive influence from McCarthy.
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I don't know what his goals might be, but the Christian church would see him as the anti-christ and try to kill him (which reminds me ever so much of the 100...).
I'm sure he'd pick a major religion and wield it like a sword, causing world wide calamity until he ruled it all.
Though that's a bit unimaginative. Probably just as easy for someone like that to conquer the world with economics and money so as to not put one's self in harms way. Crime seems inevitable though. Its just so much easier to get to the top when you aren't restricted by things like "laws" and "morality".
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Or s/he would stay in their isolation and attain the absolute. No sranc here to bother them. :p
Without a mission they would be as motivated as a supercomputer that just got left on without a program running.
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Personally, I think Steven Moffat (or possibly Mark Gatiss) is a Dunyain. The TV series Sherlock is a Conditioning of the Ground to get us to see such a character as essentially heroic so that we will eventually accept (nay, demand) Moffat (or Gatiss) as God-Emperor of Earth.
Meybe this should be in the 'Conspiracy or Paranoia' thread... :P
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It is not a mystery nowadays - that such communities as Dunians exist in every long-lasting philosophical \either religious traditions worldwide and they occasionally dwell on human society ,but never dominate over it - because they would have to deal with it on daily basis, where their first condition is to permanently stay away of contaminating /corrupting factors -such as human society in general . Conscience of adepts is wiped off subjective fragments of psyche/mind - that very state lets them grasp phenomenas of Universe (such as mind of regular human) as it is (without extractions and deceptions) Good examples are Taoist(Zen) internal schools of Wu Shu
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Personally, I think Steven Moffat (or possibly Mark Gatiss) is a Dunyain. The TV series Sherlock is a Conditioning of the Ground to get us to see such a character as essentially heroic so that we will eventually accept (nay, demand) Moffat (or Gatiss) as God-Emperor of Earth.
Lol. I watched the first episode last night, and Sherlock definitely has some Dynain blood in him:)
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I doubt a Dunyain would seek to harness any more of the world than was necessary for his autonomy and pursuit of the Self Moving Soul. Considering global interconnectedness that would be a considerable "footprint" he would leave, but not necessarily something politically noticeable and probably not control of the whole world.
1) What would a individual like Kellhus look like in modern times?
I think Kellhus would make himself rich in a year or two by playing the stock and commodities markets and would use that money to set up a base of operations from which he could work towards his goals. After that it is a question of finding a niche in which he will receive minimal outside interference while being able to exert the most influence outside as possible (so he can control himself or his circumstances maximally). I think he would become a therapist, perhaps a Freudian or Jungian analyst, and use that social setting to pry into the minds of the rich and powerful of the world to make them his tools, the loyal servants of their psychoanalytic guru. This would provide him with subtle, hidden political influence and lots of money (though he will already have plenty of it as it is). A player behind the scenes, securing his own interests through his pawns.
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Dude would get elected to be president of the USA and have all power consolidated under him within 20 years. Kellhus on Earth now basically equals Peter Wiggin.
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I think you all try too hard. Kellhus was inspired by real world examples, the humans that in most cases have shaped history for their own purposes. Today's Kellhuses are harder to spot, they have mostly succeeded in their goals so they remain far from the spotlight. They own the media, the governments, public and private debt, the banks and the industry, but most importantly they own us, their cattle. If you are looking for specific examples, guys like Edward Bernays are a good place to start. This guy practically made conditioning every part of human life through propaganda the modus operandi of the world. And speaking of Eddy, he used to work for the Rockefellers. You know, those dudes that financed the eugenics Nazi experiments, that funded the feminism movement just so they could increase production, that desperately want a vast decrease in the human population etc.
The Rockefellers of the world are our Kellhus, and they have means in their disposal that our imaginary Dunyain could only dream of.
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A dunyain would make those people look like cattle. The Rockefeller Empire, that took a lifetime to build, would take Dunyain a decade or less. I think you need to work on your imagination a bit. An IRL anything would pale in comparison to what a magical Dunyain could do.
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The Rockefeller Empire, that took a lifetime to build, would take Dunyain a decade or less.
Lifetimes.
A Dunyain could possibly play the Bruce Wayne, the Tony Stark, on steroids of that world, though.
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Tweaking my earlier response:
Kellhus might show up in our world as an obvious power player, but Old Moe and the rest of the Dunyain would rule from the shadows: unknown CEO's in big banks, NSA, Kremlin.