The False Sun (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/)[/u]
A tale of Shaeonanra, Gift of Light, the Grandvizier of the Mengaecca shortly before he is convicted of impiety and his School is outlawed, a man well on his way towards his future as Shauriatas, the Cheater of the Gods.
Major Spoiler Rating for the Second Apocalypse
I'm still torn at which of the current tales I like more. I love False Sun for the glimpse into the Consult's beginning, Titirga's sheer presence, the implications of Compulsion, and perhaps the funniest dick joke in all of Second Apocalypse so far. I'm desperately hoping Titirga may have a whole reference in the expanded encyclopedia coming out after TUC. His childhood blindness, the connections with blindness and the Outside that have been in constant debate since the books (and more importantly, since this came out as well) have made for excellent foof for thought in my off hours when I'm in an SA mood.
Plainly.
Quote from: Sideristhe expanded encyclopedia coming out after TUC.
is this going to be a separate volume, or an expanded version of the one in the back of TTT? how confirmed is it?
Its hilarious how Bakker gets attacked by some for his characterisation, and Martin gets praised for introducing the Red Viper and bringing him to life in a single chapter. For mine Titirga is on par with Oberyn.
I do find his end underwhelming. I suppose that was the point of it, but still.
Honestly, seeing as he started shouting Cants as he was falling, I maintain - even with the mountain falling on his head - he was just working his way back up to deliver a beating after those two were finished jacking around. Clearly.
And @cielago, it's not really confirmed yet, but the more Bakker talks about it, the more it seems uncertainty creeps in. Seems like both are going to be huge works.
Did Seswatha see the Inverse Fire? And if sorcerers know they are damned, why become a sorcerer at all?
The massive power of the Tekne...(click to show/hide)
Quote from: sciborg2Did Seswatha see the Inverse Fire? And if sorcerers know they are damned, why become a sorcerer at all?
Power, the fact that some believe they can cheat damnation, and that it is not merely sorcerers who are damned.
Quote from: Cynical CatQuote from: sciborg2Did Seswatha see the Inverse Fire? And if sorcerers know they are damned, why become a sorcerer at all?
Power, the fact that some believe they can cheat damnation, and that it is not merely sorcerers who are damned.
I think there's a fair number of agnostic sorcerers too.
I initially thought that there were actually some atheists kicking around in the Three Seas. Akka's roommate/lover laughing at the Tractate, Eleazaras despair upon his deciding Kellhus is a prophet and that they really are damned, etc...Not so sure now though.
Why aren't you sure any more? It stands to reason athiests would exist... I mean there's more direct proof of god in this universe, but it hardly availible to the average person or conclusive.
Just seems later on that even in internal monologue no one ever doubts the existence of the Gods in some form.
Kellhus did go a long way to polarizing all atheists and agnostics. In my mind, you're a theist even if you think Kellhus is a demon. But most of the atheists and agnostics - many of them originally Schoolman - bent knee to a living God after the Prince of Nothing.
Its hard to be atheist or agnostic in light of Kellhus' "supposed" Divinity. He's offering freedom from damnation. And cookies.
Though, this is not a commentary on my belief on Kellhus. Just how he looks from inside these beliefs.
Quote from: The SharmatJust seems later on that even in internal monologue no one ever doubts the existence of the Gods in some form.
Agree with Madness. Plus, it's more the PoVs we get - most everyone is so wrapped up in Kellhusmania that being an atheist is unlikely, or after they've seen Cil-Aujas they've literally walked through hell so atheism would have to be reconsidered.
Ironically the Dunyain are an athiest sect.
So I'm not sure if Bakker edited the False Sun (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/) at some point but a user by the name of Zacherson (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/#comment-11021)[/b][/u] has made an interesting observation:
"It appears as though Shaeonanra and Aurang lose the ability to use sorcery after their acts were deemed “outrages” by whatever force judges them, either referring to their destruction of the Nonman mansion, the murder of Titirga, or both. This is something that is unprecedented in the series, although we are not entirely sure whether this prohibition is permanent ... Not once have readers seen one of the Few being stripped of their abilities."
The part he's referring to, I believe, is this:
At last they paused to regard their labour, the Inchoroi alighting upon the same spectral floor that bore Shaeönanra. Crimson sunlight bathed the southern ramps, inking the numberless crevices across the wrack and ruin. And they rejoiced, Man and Inchoroi…
They had no inkling of the greater violence their sorcery had unleashed.
The sky cracked. Iros shuddered. The impossible sun tipped and stumbled. Plumes of ejecta exploded from points along the mountain’s perimeter, scarcely visible for the Diurnal’s encompassing glare. The mound that had been Nogaral shrugged then slumped into its contradiction. It was as if a dome of cloth had been pressed into a dimple. Summit became basin. Illumination became shadow. The mountain had been rotten with Viri, its innumerable ways fractured by the cataclysmic impact of the Ark thousands of years before. The underworld mansion imploded, collapsed inward and downward, tier upon tier, hall upon hall, undone by this final indignity. This last outrage.
The Man and the Inchoroi toppled with it. Though suspended, they remained bound to the earth, and as with all drastic changes of circumstance, the meaning of their sorcery ceased to be. Only Aurang’s wings saved them. The Inchoroi seized the Man from kicking emptiness, bore him up beyond the Diurnal blue into the truth that was cold and night ... Shaeönanra laughed in the crazed, marvelling way of children who find their destruction multiplied beyond belief. Once again, he succumbed to the sacrilege of Fate, he who walked ways invisible to the Gods. He exulted at this Sign, rejoiced that his hated foe would have a pit and not a barrow to memorialize his fall.
I mean, it sounds like they just bore too deep trying to bury Titirga. However... Thoughts?
EDIT: In rereading, it sounds like they were using the echo of the Mountain, which was itself a rotten Nonmen Mansion, itself to float - sorcerers don't truly fly. Mansion collapses, no echo to walk on, the sorcery is momentarily useless, not permanently.
I think there are various references in the series to how sorcerers simply walk an echo of the earth. I think the sorcerer of the 'stone trolls' (IIRC) has a scene where the ground runs out for him and with it, so to the sorcerous echo he walks upon - and so he falls.
It's worth wondering why Earwa can't damn you when your alive, though. Why does merely being alive put you outside the grip of the very gods?
I saved the text of the false sun in a word doc the day it was posted, since revisions kept happening to the first atrocity tale.
here's the same passage from day 1QuoteAt last they paused to regard their labour, the Inchoroi alighting upon the same spectral floor that bore Shaeönanra. Crimson sunlight bathed the southern ramps, inking the numberless crevices across the wrack and ruin. And they rejoiced, Man and Inchoroi…
They had no inkling of the greater violence their sorcery had unleashed.
The sky cracked. Iros shuddered. The impossible sun tipped and stumbled. Plumes of ejecta exploded from points along the mountain’s perimeter, scarcely visible for the Diurnal’s encompassing glare. The mound that had been Nogaral shrugged then slumped into its contradiction. It was as if a dome of cloth had been pressed into a dimple. Summit became basin. Illumination became shadow. The mountain had been rotten with Viri, its innumerable ways fractured by the cataclysmic impact of the Ark thousands of years before. The underworld mansion imploded, collapsed inward and downward, tier upon tier, hall upon hall, undone by this final indignity. This last outrage.
The Man and the Inchoroi toppled with it. Though suspended, they remained bound to the earth, and as with all drastic changes of circumstance, the meaning of their sorcery ceased to be. Only Aurang’s wings saved them. The Inchoroi seized the Man from kicking emptiness, bore him up beyond the Diurnal blue into the truth that was cold and night.
They set foot upon the depression’s edge. The Day Lantern painted a dishevelled landscape, drawing their shadows into the darkness of the great concavity below. The earth still shivered, resounded with hidden percussions, knocking dust into smoky halos about the debris.
Shaeönanra laughed in the crazed, marvelling way of children who find their destruction multiplied beyond belief. Once again, he succumbed to the sacrilege of Fate, he who walked ways invisible to the Gods. He exulted at this Sign, rejoiced that his hated foe would have a pit and not a barrow to memorialize his fall. And as the echos trailed into cavernous thunder, he began singing, as a true Long-boned Son of Umerau should,
I was thinking before if Earwa is round, then the center of the universe is at it's core. Perhaps that's where the well led to? And maybe that and sending debris down into it has something to do with...QuoteHe hears it, a faraway wind, the groan of impossible multitudes–the collective shriek. His lungs become as stone. Horror makes pins of his skin. And he feels it, the burning vaults above, the smoldering glimpses...
posted this at westeros, but wanted to snark here too.
The Math-Thesis Point?
Really?
I Lol'd.
Quote from: MadnessI Lol'd.mainly I'm kicking myself for missing the "point" until now!
I vaguely remember that someone discussing this... Is the Onkhis mentioned (twice) in The False Sun, the same as the Onkis that Inrau prays to, in TDTCB? If so, what is the significance? There might be some link between Onkis and Nonmen too, according to the PON wiki...
And tangentially, do we know if any of the Hundred Gods has an earlier or later origin than the others?
And Lockesnow, I didn't get the Mathesis connection until you pointed it out!
Tangentially, we do not.
The Onkhis and Onkis are one and the same in my mind. The significance, I think, is mundane, that Shaeonanra comes from a culture with pervasive Kiunnat belief, which Inri Sejenus amends into Inrithism - still reflecting belief in the same Gods but as aspects of the God.
Its like the Greeks calling a storm Zeus and rough seas Poseidon, it reflects a culture's, and an individual's, explanatory style, how they make sense of the world.
But, I agree, Twooars, something seems strange. Why, if the IF cleanses the cognitive palate so, would Shaeonanra's explanatory style still reflect a belief in the Gods? To the point, that they move him still?
The darkness always moves us Madness.
True ;). Still curious.
I'm going to be that annoying nitpicky guy again and suggest that Psyche and Eros are better examples of your point than Zeus and Poseidon, Madness.
I think it's hard for us to look down on Shae for using a god's name to describe part of his own unconscious mind, when we modern and enlightened humans use the names of gods we haven't even believed in for 2000 years for the exact same purpose. :D
Incidentally (and probably quite irrelevantly), Psyche was sometimes portrayed on Greek vases as looking exactly like a Synthese (probably from Egyptian influence).
I certainly have an explanatory style but it doesn't reflect Onkis, or any other God, moving me.
You'll have to enlighten me on the Psyche and Eros references beyond Plato or myths of Cupid and Psyche - though, you clearly got my communication by the conception.
+1 for imagery. Neat irrelevancy.
Quote from: MadnessI certainly have an explanatory style but it doesn't reflect Onkis, or any other God, moving me.I'm not really sure what you mean here.QuoteYou'll have to enlighten me on the Psyche and Eros references beyond Plato or myths of Cupid and PsycheAgain, I'm not sure what enlightenment you're looking for. 21st century humans use the word 'psyche' to refer to our own mental structure, and the word 'erotic' to refer to things we consider sexy. That does not imply we still worship those two gods, or even that we consider them gods any more. Likewise, Shae's use of the word 'onkhis' doesn't necessarily imply that he still feels that goddess is moving his soul, merely that 'onkhis' is the word, in his language, for that part of the mind where thoughts arise.
You could actually replace the word 'onkhis' in The False Sun with 'his psyche', and it wouldn't significantly change the meaning.
Quote from: DuskweaverYou could actually replace the word 'onkhis' in The False Sun with 'his psyche', and it wouldn't significantly change the meaning.
Mind blown. Thank you! I think this revelation sheds some light on what has been frustrating me about the interactions between certain characters. More to follow after some research.
At this rate, I am going to be looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack on my favorite topics instead of doing my re read.
love the onkhis psyche connection
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Anyone else ever note that in the story in which we first hear about THE INVERSE FIRE, that story is titled THE FALSE SUN
Seems like there's an apparent and ripe association there. Yes it is probably referring to Titirga's stuff, but it could very well be referring to the main idea of the text, which is Shae's obsession with damnation that was triggered by the inverse fire. Perhaps Shae operates under the light of a false sun?
Or perhaps the false sun is more direcly connected to the inverse fire. Maybe a better name for the IF would be the FALSE fire?
The Inverse Fire is a lie! (the Inchoroi's version of cake)
+1 all y'all. I concur.
Duskweaver, we're making sense but I don't think we're being mutually topical.Quote from: DuskweaverQuote from: MadnessI certainly have an explanatory style but it doesn't reflect Onkis, or any other God, moving me.
I'm not really sure what you mean here.
I hazard that you know what an explanatory style is but for brevity it reflects how we internalize events, usually circumstances involving ourselves and negative consequences. Generally, it is used to describe our foremost conscious interaction with our individual perceptual realities, how we explain that interaction to our selves - without reflecting on the big questions of blind brains or the hard and binding problem.
I might use something as foreign from psyche as Christians when God moves them.Quote from: DuskweaverLikewise, Shae's use of the word 'onkhis' doesn't necessarily imply that he still feels that goddess is moving his soul, merely that 'onkhis' is the word, in his language, for that part of the mind where thoughts arise.
You could actually replace the word 'onkhis' in The False Sun with 'his psyche', and it wouldn't significantly change the meaning.
As I wrote, I figure you understood the conception of what I tried to communicate with Zeus and Poseidon. I offered those examples instead of those more anachronistic so as to jar our contemporary perspectives. What the narratives of Homer (or the Homeric Poets) suggest is that humans in the past explained their volition, in part, in terms of Gods, or Onkis - in fact, thinking back to my Ancient Greek Philosophy or the belief schema I've studied in my life, I actually think that there are cultures with Gods similar to Her within our own historical narrative, if the Greeks didn't have one themselves.
I feel like you understood all this?
Following from that, I don't think that you can make the separation for Shaeonanra. Perhaps, Shauriatas, though we've not had exposure to him except from the Nau-Cayuti in the Ark Dream of the Ch. 1 - 2000 years ago itself.
It doesn't significantly change the meaning for us... but to Shaeonanra in Earwa?. Could it not reflect the fact that Shaeonanra understands he is trapped in all the chains binding man to the Gods until such a point he can close the world from the Outside?
If he is making the distinction you suggest is there good reason he doesn't simply use a Nonman or Inchoroi word, something linguistically exotic - like Sorcerers using a foreign tongue to frame novel semantic structures. It's even likely that one of those species have words with more concise meanings for "onkis" or "his psyche?" (I think we may be well off the reserve as to Bakker's Intentions here, though estimating the man is impossible :). Though, I'd guess that the Dunyain have names for the parts of the brain that exhibit external behaviors with Neuropuncture - if only, Horror Base 2, Motion Sequence 7, etc.)Quote from: DuskweaverAgain, I'm not sure what enlightenment you're looking for. 21st century humans use the word 'psyche' to refer to our own mental structure, and the word 'erotic' to refer to things we consider sexy. That does not imply we still worship those two gods, or even that we consider them gods any more.
Any novel understanding really. I concur but if we're exploring Bakker's fiction then this should be about the perception of antiquated humans. Though, obviously, the author is using the trope of ancient man to anachronistically communicate to a contemporary reader ;). Lol.
I offer you some "enlightenment" - I use it mostly in the mundane sense, though I'd hardly call my experience of novelty mundane so far as "I" go. I've grown into a person who doesn't ascribe metaphysical explanations to events in life, as I'd rather just cultivate my appreciation of being whatever it is to be human and figuring that out in a mundane sense. Why can't all the amazing, unique human pillars in history just be human first, before they're Divine, or Alien? So the title of the zine has to be framed in jest on my part, not advocacy of the overarching themes. Cheers. But it featured heavily in my connotations when you suggested Eros and Psyche.
Eros and Agape, Agency and Communion (http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j41/guru-pandit.asp?page=2)
By the way, in one of the renditions of that myth I found, when Eros falls in love with the human Psyche, he refuses to play cupid and there is no new life until he resumes his duties for Venus.
Quote from: MadnessI don't think we're being mutually topical.That was the impression I was getting, hence my confuzzledness.QuoteI might use something as foreign from psyche as Christians when God moves them.Well, OK. I don't personally tend to use the word 'psyche' much myself in a personal context. But it would not seem strange at all (to me) for a character in a story who is supposed to be a secular-minded 21st century Englishman (for example) to use the term 'psyche' in that way. It reflects certain aspects of cultural baggage, yes, but is not at all incompatible with him flatly rejecting ancient Greek religion (or metaphysics generally) as an explanation for his own thought patterns. Reading about such a character using 'psyche' in that way would lead me to think of that character as somewhat poetically or romantically inclined rather than pious, if that makes sense?QuoteI feel like you understood all this?I didn't think we were disagreeing in principle. But you seemed to be making more of something that seemed to me to be just colourful set-dressing. Shae's use of Onkis' name suggests cultural baggage to me more than some deep insight into how he, personally, thinks (although, bearing in mind who wrote it, I'm starting to reconsider that). It may even be intended as consciously ironic (like the fiercely atheist/materialist Anton LaVey co-opting Christian imagery and spiritualist trappings).QuoteFollowing from that, I don't think that you can make the separation for Shaeonanra. Perhaps, Shauriatas, though we've not had exposure to him except from the Nau-Cayuti in the Ark Dream of the Ch. 1 - 2000 years ago itself.I think the separation would have to be ongoing thing. So, yeah, maybe at the time of The False Sun, he's still basically seeing the world as his countrymen do.
Going back to your original comment:QuoteWhy, if the IF cleanses the cognitive palate so, would Shaeonanra's explanatory style still reflect a belief in the Gods? To the point, that they move him still?My tentative opinion is that the IF doesn't "cleanse the cognitive palate". I don't see the IF as some sort of brainwashing device. The psychological effect it has is essentially mundane, IMO. It doesn't magically force you to turn into a sadistic, genocidal loon, it just gives you information whose logical implications are such that genocide might seem like an appropriate response. I'm pretty sure if I received irrefutable proof of my own eternal damnation, I'd be willing to do literally anything to escape it. It wouldn't require my brain to be rewired, nor would it cause me to change my underlying psychological makeup. I can't see any reason why my explanatory style would necessarily change overnight.QuoteCould it not reflect the fact that Shaeonanra understands he is trapped in all the chains binding man to the Gods until such a point he can close the world from the Outside?It could, yes. That's certainly one interpretation. You could even argue that the "cultural baggage" I mentioned is one such chain.QuoteIf he is making the distinction you suggest is there good reason he doesn't simply use a Nonman or Inchoroi word, something linguistically exoticTongue firmly in cheek, maybe that's the significance of the extra letter 'h'? :P
No, I'm starting to think you're right. If Bakker intended the use of 'Onkhis' to be purely cultural baggage / set dressing / telling us about the Ancient Norsirai rather than about Shaeonanra himself, surely Shae himself would have commented on that in his internal monologue? Demonstrating some irritation at the limitations of his own language to properly express what he's actually thinking about how he thinks, for example? But he doesn't seem to question it at all.QuoteWhy can't all the amazing, unique human pillars in history just be human first, before they're Divine, or Alien?Well, I'd agree with this. To me, the Divine comes after and is itself a human gloss (by which I mean any and all of the following: "a post-hoc explanation"; "an enhancing addition"; "a superficial and deceptive appearance" ;) ).QuoteEros and Agape, Agency and Communion (http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j41/guru-pandit.asp?page=2)Thanks. I'll give it a read.
Looking back, this post may well be completely incoherent. I've been typing it a tiny bit at a time all morning, in amongst trying to work out what's wrong with my blasted central heating boiler... :evil:
No, no... Yeah, yeah... No, no... [In Jest].
+1 Duskweaver. Not incoherent by any measure.
While I realize you might not completely agree with the initial parts of your post...Quote from: DuskweaverReading about such a character using 'psyche' in that way would lead me to think of that character as somewhat poetically or romantically inclined rather than pious, if that makes sense?
Absolutely concise. But... Bakker ;)? As I wrote, and you've acknowledged, Bakker makes the damn difference (pun... intended). He tries to be pretty conscious of what he's writing. Benjuka is figuring out his connotations - hense, Second Apocalypse. Sweet, sweet, nurturing ambiguity.Quote from: DuskweaverIt may even be intended as consciously ironic (like the fiercely atheist/materialist Anton LaVey co-opting Christian imagery and spiritualist trappings).
May be. +1 for thoughts.Quote from: DuskweaverMy tentative opinion is that the IF doesn't "cleanse the cognitive palate". I don't see the IF as some sort of brainwashing device. The psychological effect it has is essentially mundane, IMO
See, this was my opinion as well, at the start, but I tend to take many of my social cues from people around me (I've done some damage to any ability to relate socially - even moreso as of the Mayan Apokalypsis, fuck New Years Resolutions ;)). Consensus seems to be that no one would revert to such behaviour without some material change...Quote from: DuskweaverIt could, yes. That's certainly one interpretation. You could even argue that the "cultural baggage" I mentioned is one such chain.
+1.Quote from: DuskweaverTongue firmly in cheek, maybe that's the significance of the extra letter 'h'? :P
No, I'm starting to think you're right. If Bakker intended the use of 'Onkhis' to be purely cultural baggage / set dressing / telling us about the Ancient Norsirai rather than about Shaeonanra himself, surely Shae himself would have commented on that in his internal monologue? Demonstrating some irritation at the limitations of his own language to properly express what he's actually thinking about how he thinks, for example? But he doesn't seem to question it at all.
Lmao. This is part of the Madness I try and stop everyday, Duskweaver. Madness grew out of a saying I had for social situations (like talking past each other ;)) that are inherently ridiculous for their miscommunications. Stop the Madness :D... Huge Lol humanity, as much as I've dedicated my life to changing you.
What does Bakker see :@!!!Quote from: DuskweaverWell, I'd agree with this. To me, the Divine comes after and is itself a human gloss (by which I mean any and all of the following: "a post-hoc explanation"; "an enhancing addition"; "a superficial and deceptive appearance" ;) ).
+1 :(. Yay for Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius, and the Vedic Authors... +1 for all the cultures with honourable mentions (which is all cultures, with some kind of belief system - all cultures, always interpretive of reality). Learn me good.
Lol. I wish I had more practical knowledge... I'm all about embodied cognition so my body is fast becoming subject to my tinkering.
Cheers.
"Who are you to condemn?” Shaeönanra cried in the mock way of too-learned Men. “The Schools have no stake in Nonman wars.”
This much was true. The Siqu were loathe to speak of the War–even Cet’ingira, who had led the Mangaecca to the Ark and the revelation of the Xir’kirimakra. Their feud with the Inchoroi was theirs and theirs alone, so much so they denied their Mannish pupils all but the most elliptical knowledge of it.
But Titirga frowned as if at a tiresome juvenile. “Who are you to decide our stake?"
A flush of horror. Shaeönanra tensed against the sudden loosening in his bowel, not quite believing that the Inchoroi had dared name it aloud. Xir’kirimakra. The Inverse Fire.
Quote from: WilshireOr perhaps the false sun is more direcly connected to the inverse fire. Maybe a better name for the IF would be the FALSE fire?
The Inverse Fire is a lie! (the Inchoroi's version of cake)
But then why was he the one trying to destroy the Barricades? Why lead the Mangaecca to the IF if he was trying to suppress its nature before?
So I guess I didn't fully understand this before, but Xir’kirimakra is another name for the Inverse Fire. Cet'ingira was one of the Three, the name given to the 3 nonmen who entered the ark and stumbled upon the IF. The other two where presumably killed for being mad, but what of Cet'ingira? He told Nil'Giccas to kill the others, but for what purpose? To hide the truth of the IF revelations?
Unless he isn't Erratic. He could be our first glimpse of the Intact. Maybe all of the sane Nonmen, those who really can remember, have been preserved with some kind of manipulation of the Tekne, and all of them are fully under the Inchoroi "control". But by control, I mean willing servants converted to their side via the IF and then psycho-modified to hold the millennium of extra memories.
After all, it was Kellhus that taught us that the most fanatic of his followers often came from the doubters, not the believers. In the end, everyone is a believer, a follower, they just need to be shown.
Gotta say that I love Titirga, but I think he was probably a one story character. I can't see Bakker's editor letting him include Titirga in TUC without more foreshadowing withing TSA. The editor would point out that there's no guarantee that the average series reader is also 3lbbrain fan? Would be cool to see him in more Atrocity tales.
“They speak of you often in Umerau and Sauglish,” Titirga said, his manner sinister for being so bland. “They say you have the eyes of a serpent…”
Shaeönanra smiled. Vanity had been a well-known flaw of his, yes. He had preened in the days before…
“No. Just a dog. No different than other Men.”
What is with this part:Quote“They speak of you often in Umerau and Sauglish,” Titirga said, his manner sinister for being so bland. “They say you have the eyes of a serpent…”
Shaeönanra smiled. Vanity had been a well-known flaw of his, yes. He had preened in the days before…
“No. Just a dog. No different than other Men.”
Does the 'eyes of a serpent' mean vanity? Or is it merely something to aspire to? Considering that in PoN the Cish use serpents for eyes and that serpents are considered holy, is there a relation?
Perhaps the reference is more towards some kind of dangerous regard - the unblinking stare of a defensive snake can be unnerving, I think.This make sense to me, though I don't know if that translates to vanity, though what some groups aspire to can be rather alien (no pun intended).
What is with this part:Quote“They speak of you often in Umerau and Sauglish,” Titirga said, his manner sinister for being so bland. “They say you have the eyes of a serpent…”
Shaeönanra smiled. Vanity had been a well-known flaw of his, yes. He had preened in the days before…
“No. Just a dog. No different than other Men.”
Does the 'eyes of a serpent' mean vanity? Or is it merely something to aspire to? Considering that in PoN the Cish use serpents for eyes and that serpents are considered holy, is there a relation?
So he stood waiting before the gate of his cyclopean tower, Nogaral, staring southward across the heaving leagues of the Neleöst Sea, knowing that soon–very soon–a light would stride across the moonlit waters.
Why would a member of a culture like that build a machine that forced the idea of damnation upon them?
I very much doubt the Inverse Fire is some kind of illusion or mind control device, since some Inchoroi must have invented it at some point, and they wouldn't want to use such a thing on themself. I imagine the Inchoroi culture, prior to the discovery of the Inverse Fire and damnation, was extremely nihilistic and hedonistic. I greatly doubt they believed in any Gods at all, or any morality that we would understand. Why would a member of a culture like that build a machine that forced the idea of damnation upon them?Clearly they didn't invent it, rather inverse prometheus stole the inverse fire from the inverse gods
I personally suspect they came across the invention of the inverse fire, the discovery of an afterlife, and the knowledge that there was objective morality and damnation, entirely by accident, in the course of other scientific inquiry. Naturally, the discovery and its irrefutability shocked and transformed their entire culture. Enough that they took their entire species to the stars to seek out the source of their damnation, and destroy it.
I very much doubt the Inverse Fire is some kind of illusion or mind control device, since some Inchoroi must have invented it at some point, and they wouldn't want to use such a thing on themself. I imagine the Inchoroi culture, prior to the discovery of the Inverse Fire and damnation, was extremely nihilistic and hedonistic. I greatly doubt they believed in any Gods at all, or any morality that we would understand. Why would a member of a culture like that build a machine that forced the idea of damnation upon them?
I personally suspect they came across the invention of the inverse fire, the discovery of an afterlife, and the knowledge that there was objective morality and damnation, entirely by accident, in the course of other scientific inquiry. Naturally, the discovery and its irrefutability shocked and transformed their entire culture. Enough that they took their entire species to the stars to seek out the source of their damnation, and destroy it.
One theory I'm kinda toying with is that they used the Tekne to remove the atomic structure that overlays whatever comprises the basic matter of the Earwaverse and ended up with a hole that lets you see out of the universe.
Perhaps they were trying to find a power source or something.
That's how many major practical scientific discoveries happen in our world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_chance_in_scientific_discoveries).
If it is a power source, it could also be the engine of the arc, now rerouted to their synthese labs, Shae's life-support pit and the golden room etc.
Or perhaps the false sun is more direcly connected to the inverse fire. Maybe a better name for the IF would be the FALSE fire? The Inverse Fire is a lie! (the Inchoroi's version of cake)A false fire. Sounds like a falschfeuer in german whis is a flare in english.
My personal feelings are that it is called such because we often presume hell (or Hell) to be a fiery place, yet the reality the damned face in the Outside is actually it's opposite. Fire would be hot, burning, consuming. Damnation in the outside is the opposite, cold, freezing, preserving. Where fire would devour and extinguish, the coldness of damnation is is endless.The play of Fire is probably close to the mark, regardless of what actually occurs in that hell. An anchor for the reader.
That crack-pottery isn't what struck me in the story though, it was the exchange between Shae and Titirga. Is it just me, but I actually believe that everything Shae (and Aurang) is actually true. What they see really is their damnation. I don't fee like the Inverse Fire is a device made to control, it is simply something of a window that reveals what I would term "dread knowledge.";I think that Shae, and potentially Aurang, believe that what they say is true, and I'm not entirely sure that the difference is too important.
The idea of such a thing is knowledge that does not enwisen, but rather fosters something of a guttural fear response.Reminds me of Adam/Eve and the tree of knowledge.
Indeed, what Shae and the Consult choose to do is actually rather logical, however, it is motivated by the basest and most primitive of thoughts and feelings, pleasure and self-preservation. Nothing is inherently wrong with either, but when they are exacted as pleasure for it's own sake and self-preservation at any cost that is an issue.I agree that its logical. If you knew that you would burn for eternity if you did nothing, it would likely be difficult to see the point of any sort of morality. For even just the chance to forestall and absolve an eternity of suffering, all things would be possible.
Titirga offers them the alternative: oblivion. The Consult rejects this though, because that base need of self-preservation, so closely linked to fear, drives them to try to achieve "salvation" at any cost.The choice between nothing, and an eternity of peace, seems like a pretty easy one as well, especially if the 'oblivion' gambit if not a sure bet and you end up burning forever anyway.
I don't know if that makes any real sense to anyone but me, but I figured I'd just lob it out there...Made perfect sense. I hope you lob some more this way if ever you forget your ebooks again ;).
The play of Fire is probably close to the mark, regardless of what actually occurs in that hell. An anchor for the reader.I agree that the idea of the Void (space, as we call it) and the Outside (eh, I guess something like Heaven, Hell and Purgatory) are actually kind of mirrors (maybe?) of each other. In the sense that the Void is the nothing outside the physical realm (ok, not actually nothing, but something very much like it, conceptually) and the Outside is the nothing outside the spiritual realm. Planets (well, matter, so stars, etc.) are the breaks in the Void, the Gods seem to be the breaks in the Outside. I guess that what leads me to conflagration the two together to put meaning to what Inverse Fire could mean.
The analogy for cold works, though cold if often associated with numbness, and peace/quiet, while for me fire is more easily associated with suffering and screaming agony. I can't imagine a more horrific way to spend eternity, endlessly burning in a fire...
I also think you might be combining 'The Void' and "The Outside'. The Void is presumably a reference to space, while The Outside is the spiritual realm. There are many different kinds of 'Outsides', as many or more than the number of Gods, and I associate the oblivion/nothingness that the Nonmen/Titirga seek is someplace untouched by those entities, a place of nothing.
Reminds me of Adam/Eve and the tree of knowledge.
The choice between nothing, and an eternity of peace, seems like a pretty easy one as well, especially if the 'oblivion' gambit if not a sure bet and you end up burning forever anyway.
Welcome H,That's me, yeah, mostly a lurker there though too.
Think I seen you around as .H. on westeros?
I always thought the Consult seemed to mock the idea of "finding oblivion" as if they thought this was just a Nonman myth. Shae and Aurang definitely seemed to be mocking Titirgas understanding of damnation.
Well not all of you made it to here, so I stand by my previous welcoming :). Great profile picture btw, where did you get that from?
Actually, I didn't connect the mirror between Void and Outside, but I like that quite a bit.
I meant Salvation by closing the world from the gods and therefore forever escaping damnation, rather than some kind of redemptive steps to cleanse their souls. I was unclear.
I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.
As for Kellhus, "then what" is pretty much as far as it goes. I think some common suggestions are: save everyone, save himself, become a god, seal the world from the gods, get everyone killed, join the consult, destroy the consult, steal/use/learn the Tekne, become a self moving soul, or some combination of those things.My memory is a little foggy on this, but has anyone ever seen the Inverse Fire and not joined the Consult? Did Seswatha actually see it?
We call you folks Old Names for a reason.I figured as much. At first I thought it was just a direct copy from TDTCB cover, but realized that the text doesn't surround the building thing. A coloration of the chapter headers then. Either way, very cool.
Come to think of it, I think the colored version of the Temple came from the Three-Seas board itself. Hard to remember, it was about 10 years ago...wow, that's a long time...
Yeah one of the Nonmen explicitely said they saw it I thought, Nil'Giccas maybe, and didn't join.
Seswatha is speculated to have seen it, but no outright proof that he did.
But im clearly foggy as well. Other's know things more clearly than I, but are harder to find :P.
We call you folks Old Names for a reason.
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.
Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.
Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.
I shy away from the neuropath approach, probably because they were already masters of the mundane sciences. If its real, it has to be metaphysical/magical for them to have dropped everything to save themselves.
Maybe that Nil'giccas then, but I could have sworn we have a reference for someone who saw the IF and didn't join up with the Consult.
i think it was Nil'giccas who ordered Mekeritrig and 2 others to go look at it and then report back?
@ H - that is neet-so looking into the IF basically swept away the nonman religion? another thing to make them crazy!
where are your pictures!!! want to see!
lol, i was reading too fast and thought you said you photoshopped something Bakker something--but it was your avatar you were talking about! sorry!
p.s. i don't think it says anywhere that Ses or NC did see the IF, it would just be hella-interesting
maybe the IF was how the Consult convinced Ieva to poison NC?
Do we know for sure if any of the characters in WLW know about the Inverse Fire? Is it possible that they could just blunder into it?I dont think anyone we know of is completely aware of its existence. They could accidentally look into it :P. Maybe the Consult has put the IF out in a field somewhere and hope that Kellhus and the ordeal turn it on and then all join their side... like Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi :P
Do we know for sure if any of the characters in WLW know about the Inverse Fire? Is it possible that they could just blunder into it?I dont think anyone we know of is completely aware of its existence. They could accidentally look into it :P. Maybe the Consult has put the IF out in a field somewhere and hope that Kellhus and the ordeal turn it on and then all join their side... like Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi :P
This link: http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/
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Royce, I can't believe you missed this story :)
This link: http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/
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Royce, I can't believe you missed this story :)
Thanks Wilshire. Yeah, I am not sure how that happened either:). When is it recommended to read this story? I have not read TSA in almost 3 years so I remember very little of it.
Thanks Wilshire. Yeah, I am not sure how that happened either:). When is it recommended to read this story? I have not read TSA in almost 3 years so I remember very little of it.
But the very reason I enjoyed writing “The False Sun” so much is also the reason I need to issue a SEVERE SPOILER ALERT. The Second Apocalypse is big, so big that the narrative and thematic dimensions only come into collective focus here and there. ”The False Sun” is a story about the origins of the Consult, and so brings together the historical and metaphysical dimensions of the greater saga in a decisive way. Nothing is spoiled in terms of plot, but in terms of setting, this story cuts against the way the details of the World have been rationed over the course of the series. Drawing the curtain back on Golgotterath is something I’ve reserved for The Unholy Consult.
Thus the spoiler alert: Reading “The False Sun” will have a profound impact on your reading of The Unholy Consult, and if you are as jealous of your narrative surprises as I am, you might want to set this story on the back-burner.