The Second Apocalypse
Miscellaneous Chatter => Philosophy & Science => Topic started by: The Great Scald on February 11, 2014, 12:18:20 am
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I want to hear some input from the Bakker-reading crowd on this serious dilemma I've had.
Is there anything of value in the world? The answer, at least to me, seems to be "No". I've long had these ideas myself, and reading up on neuroscience basically confirmed them. Neuroscience definitely seems to prove that meanings and purposes (as we see them) don't actually exist and that "the self" is an illusion of bio-chemistry. We're not "real". Consciousness fools us all into believing that we're real instead of a puppet of our biology. The old-school pessimist philosophers like Schopenhauer have the same view - that every single thought, idea, concept, image, symbol, and representation are fundamentally distractions that prevent people from realizing that everything is meaningless.
Last week, I read Thomas Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against The Human Race, a book I really recommend to anyone who liked Neuropath: http://forums.philosophyforums.com/download.php?attachid=4970 (http://forums.philosophyforums.com/download.php?attachid=4970)
Reading this book was sort of enlightening to me, although probably the most depressing kind of "enlightenment" imaginable. Most of these ideas were thoughts I'd already had myself, but Ligotti's book made things a lot clearer. He's basically a Schopenhauer-style pessimist who writes that life isn't worth living and explains the reasons why. Through the whole book, I couldn't find anything to disagree with.
I've been thinking about suicide on and off, over the last few weeks. On some level, I obviously have the instinct for self-preservation, which is probably the main thing keeping me from killing myself. I've tried going to a psychiatrist, but half the time he doesn't understand what the hell I'm talking about. I take antidepressant pills, but they're not helping much. I've stopped going to my uni lectures and basically don't give a shit about anything. I've stopped going to work. Since I now know that my life is meaningless, and that all "goals" are pointless distractions created by chemical reactions in my head, I don't do much at all.
To use Bakker's terms, going back to "Disney World" isn't really possible for me anymore. I want to, but it's impossible. I'm not good at compartmentalizing my thoughts and willfully ignoring stuff. There's some philosophy professors (Brassier, for example) who have wives and kids that they love, follow society's norms and rules in their daily lives, and then go to their universities (or wherever) and hold lectures about the meaningless and deterministic nature of reality without breaking a sweat. I'm not one of those. I can't live a lie. But neither can I really, fully be a nihilist/determinist and stay sane.
I tend to agree with Bakker (and Lovecraft, etc) that there are realities so hostile and alien that human minds can't handle them. But once you've stumbled onto these truths, what can you do?
(To be honest, I wish I'd never read Bakker, Schopenhauer, Brassier, Ligotti, Cioran or any of those authors. But what's done can't be undone.)
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It's really a weird dilemma, because on the one hand, I obviously want to live, but on the other hand, I realize that life is pointless and shitty.
If I keep living with this knowledge, I really don't know what to do. I definitely don't want to end up like Rust from "True Detective", that's for sure.
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I just go along for the ride. I'm programmed to believe I'm making decisions (I don't really think I am), and that everyone else is too. Until I can change my programming, I can do nothing but gain what joys I can out of life (or, take what joys life hands to me). Existing is interesting. I'm in no rush to face oblivion, even if ultimately the when/how I get there is meaningless.
If I keep living with this knowledge, I really don't know what to do. I definitely don't want to end up like Rust from "True Detective", that's for sure.
I just don't think about it. Or I try not to. This is hard, because I think about this shit constantly. At least once a day I stop and think, "This is pointless. I'm basically a robot." Then I shake the thoughts from my head and move on. I use art to express my troubles in this regard.
The only answer is not to think about it. Not until we can change it.
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I might ask if you are married or have a partner of any kind?
ETA: I'm being overly simplistic here because I don't have time to properly answer but I feel I should elaborate at least a little, since I feel for you as personally I deal with this shit daily, all the time.
When I say, "Just don't think about it," I don't mean never, ever think about it and become a drone in Disney world. But I do mean to live a lie. LIVE THE LIE. Why the fuck not? Wring out every ounce of substance from this existence that's possible. Value doesn't exist, no. Everything is meaningless. But we, as human beings, create the illusion of meaning. We may not be doing it intentionally (after all, it's just a chemical process), but that's the lie that we need. Don't abandon your enlightenment. This is the great curse of consciousness.
But suicide does NOTHING. Most of the time it amounts largely to causing unnecessary pain to those around you. And, after all, it's not you deciding to do it anyway, is it? It's your brain's mechanistic chemical process. So if you're willing to sit there and debate suicide, then you're already living the lie. Keep living it, and do it better.
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This makes me a bit sad Auriga. You don`t have to be so convinced that all these people you read actually are right in their assumptions. I know that it is pretty convincing though, since I (and probably everyone on this board) share your perspective. I am sad, because I have been there, and I know there is a way out(at least for me there was). Of course I do not know you, and we are all very different, but we are also very much alike. I have mentioned this many times in other treads, but a healthy dose of psilocybin mushrooms can work wonders. I am not saying it will work for you, only that it worked for me. It is important that you do your homework if decide to do this.Read about it. I would also recommend that you give Alan Watts a chance. He may be the only guy who have gotten my out of a depression by using words. The book: On the taboo against knowing who you are, is pure brilliance IMO. Just do me(this guy you do not know:)) a favor and read that one. Writing might also help, write all that shit down. It might give you new perspective.
Here is a little quote: "When you know for sure that your separate ego is a fiction, you actually feel yourself as the whole process and pattern of life." Psychedelics make you feel this, seriously. PM me if you want to talk more about this.
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Yeah, Alan Watts is fantastic. +1 that recommendation.
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It is true that value and meaning are invested attributes. But why should this make them illusory simply because they have no material reality?
Do you define logic and mathematics as illusory?
By your own definition, are they not manufactured by the functions of our biological processes? In which case they do come from without, but it's your game to manage and direct them.
Personally, I disagree that free will is an illusion. Certainly, the latitude of our ability to determine our own actions is grossly over-estimated and the realization of this has led many to consider that the opposite is true. Especially the depressive philosophers like Schopenhauer et al.
I would recommend reading up on chaos and complex systems if you think that we live in a clockwork, predetermined universe. "Chaos" by James Gleik is an easy read that changed the way I look at the world. Nothing ever repeats perfectly, so how can we truly be bound to repeat ourselves? Our behaviours are bifurcating chaotic patterns, they may look similar but differences propagate, multiply and are winnowed.
Personally I'd much rather live in a bounteous world where we have just randomly wound up with the ability to experience joy, pleasure and fulfilment than some bullshit world where we struggle to understand some great meaning imposed from without. So what if I can trace my enjoyment of chocolate to some childhood experience and a genetic predisposition and my enjoyment doesn't really matter? Still better than knowing that bad shit happens because the universe has some ultimate plan or function.
Honestly, you sound somewhat depressed. That's cool, but you need to avoid dwelling on existential bullshit like this. Set yourself a challenge, change something about yourself and tell me if the highs and lows you experience on that journey are worthwhile or not.
Behavioural systems are certainly based on repetition and reinforcement, but rationality and the ability to change your environment are very real ways to change or instill new values within your life. Psychological development is the process of practicing mental eugenics, embrace your ability to apprehend patterns and apply rational logic in order to direct your development and you can achieve many things, not least of which is learning to value your own existence.
Sitting about wondering if you are wasting your time and getting morose is a mug's game. Fuck the cold reality of the universe, it will go on without you.
@Royce; if you are going to drop mushies in a depressed state, ensure that you have a trusted buddy that will help you by discussing the issues you are struggling with
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I'm responding but I do want to note that please seek out every available counter-argument (including, and especially, direct criticisms of the authors who have affected this "negative enlightenment" in you - obviously also help-line, educated psychologists/clinicians, etc; though, it sounds like you are in the process of engaging these resources to no avail).
Is there anything of value in the world? The answer, at least to me, seems to be "No". I've long had these ideas myself, and reading up on neuroscience basically confirmed them. Neuroscience definitely seems to prove that meanings and purposes (as we see them) don't actually exist and that "the self" is an illusion of bio-chemistry. We're not "real". Consciousness fools us all into believing that we're real instead of a puppet of our biology. The old-school pessimist philosophers like Schopenhauer have the same view - that every single thought, idea, concept, image, symbol, and representation are fundamentally distractions that prevent people from realizing that everything is meaningless.
You've not seen the value I do in my views in other, similar conversations so I won't reiterate them here. I believe you are valuable in that you have unique experiences and knowledge unavailable to me and you've already expanded me much in your interaction here in the past (almost) twoish years.
Last week, I read Thomas Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against The Human Race, a book I really recommend to anyone who liked Neuropath: http://forums.philosophyforums.com/download.php?attachid=4970 (http://forums.philosophyforums.com/download.php?attachid=4970)
Reading this book was sort of enlightening to me, although probably the most depressing kind of "enlightenment" imaginable. Most of these ideas were thoughts I'd already had myself, but Ligotti's book made things a lot clearer. He's basically a Schopenhauer-style pessimist who writes that life isn't worth living and explains the reasons why. Through the whole book, I couldn't find anything to disagree with.
To be fair, people say Neuropath is the amateur Ligotti. My main question of such thinkers is "are the criterion by which you establish meaninglessness a result of sociocultural organization as it has stood/stands?" If so, then every nihilist has an obligation to affect change in society and cultural to prove that every sociocultural arrangement actually does result in meaninglessness.
I've been thinking about suicide on and off, over the last few weeks. On some level, I obviously have the instinct for self-preservation, which is probably the main thing keeping me from killing myself. I've tried going to a psychiatrist, but half the time he doesn't understand what the hell I'm talking about. I take antidepressant pills, but they're not helping much. I've stopped going to my uni lectures and basically don't give a shit about anything. I've stopped going to work. Since I now know that my life is meaningless, and that all "goals" are pointless distractions created by chemical reactions in my head, I don't do much at all.
I know I haven't been where you are. I've had dances with the darkness and I can't concisely say what chance stayed my hand. In part, I'm with FB in saying that existing interests me.
However, why is the goal of suicide the result? How do you know that all those thinkers that contribute to this worldview aren't poor arguers (beyond the fact that they seem to have convinced you whose intelligence I found refreshing).
If what exists, if what we experience is inherently meaninglessness, what is to stop us, truly, from making that meaninglessness beautiful? Why does the result always have to be incapacitation? Why does the reaction have to be one of apathetic futility?
To use Bakker's terms, going back to "Disney World" isn't really possible for me anymore. I want to, but it's impossible. I'm not good at compartmentalizing my thoughts and willfully ignoring stuff. There's some philosophy professors (Brassier, for example) who have wives and kids that they love, follow society's norms and rules in their daily lives, and then go to their universities (or wherever) and hold lectures about the meaningless and deterministic nature of reality without breaking a sweat. I'm not one of those. I can't live a lie. But neither can I really, fully be a nihilist/determinist and stay sane.
I don't know what to say, Auriga. Isn't it possible that there is coherency beyond what our human brains can perceive? Isn't it likely that humans don't actually know enough about anything for nihilism, religions, philosophy to be "the way things are?"
I tend to agree with Bakker (and Lovecraft, etc) that there are realities so hostile and alien that human minds can't handle them. But once you've stumbled onto these truths, what can you do?
(To be honest, I wish I'd never read Bakker, Schopenhauer, Brassier, Ligotti, Cioran or any of those authors. But what's done can't be undone.)
They all have their detractors. And in the end, it's about you. You are now, not them. It's about inking your response to the mystery.
It's really a weird dilemma, because on the one hand, I obviously want to live, but on the other hand, I realize that life is pointless and shitty.
If I keep living with this knowledge, I really don't know what to do. I definitely don't want to end up like Rust from "True Detective", that's for sure.
I'm not sure where I myself stand. Many of Bakker's fandom seem to be comfortably/uncomfortably nearing Rust/Neil/Kellhus, etc. I know I'm not.
I want to engage life. I refuse to not try and change the world. One life. And I'm selfish. I need people like you to live and to help me because we here all know that those who are as smart as us are already in power (or not) and the rest of them...
We need a network. We need more brains operating at your capacity, not less. You are too valuable a resource for me to let you go quietly, Auriga.
As far as my response goes so far, I would just like to add that I will make any kind of time to reach out for reals. PM me, we can chat, skype, phone call, whatever.
I just go along for the ride. I'm programmed to believe I'm making decisions (I don't really think I am), and that everyone else is too. Until I can change my programming, I can do nothing but gain what joys I can out of life (or, take what joys life hands to me). Existing is interesting. I'm in no rush to face oblivion, even if ultimately the when/how I get there is meaningless.
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I just don't think about it. Or I try not to. This is hard, because I think about this shit constantly. At least once a day I stop and think, "This is pointless. I'm basically a robot." Then I shake the thoughts from my head and move on. I use art to express my troubles in this regard.
The only answer is not to think about it. Not until we can change it.
I for one appreciate experiencing and thinking about the absolute peak moments I have communicating with you lot. It's the most meaningful meaninglessness, if that's the case.
I would also recommend that you give Alan Watts a chance.
Read some Ken Wilbur too. I used to say I'm like 65% Bakker, 35% Wilbur. Actually, if reading material is up for suggestion, I have a number of titles to suggest. Also, watch some Jiddu Krishnamurti, he's an amazing thinker.
I would recommend reading up on chaos and complex systems if you think that we live in a clockwork, predetermined universe. "Chaos" by James Gleik is an easy read that changed the way I look at the world. Nothing ever repeats perfectly, so how can we truly be bound to repeat ourselves? Our behaviours are bifurcating chaotic patterns, they may look similar but differences propagate, multiply and are winnowed.
Information was also a great read.
Auriga, I value your unique reality-tunnel and I still wish to spend a whole lifetime learning from differences between us.
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A fitting passage from the textbook I'm reading (it also talks about precursor term for the depression/intelligence correlation, neurasthenia):
(Writing about William James)
During the dark months of 1869, James began to construct a philosophy of life, compelled not so much by intellectual curiosity as by despair. He read much philosophy, including essays by Charles Renouvier on freedom of the will, which persuaded James of its existence. He decided that his first act of free will would be to believe in free will. Next, he resolved to believe that he could cure himself of his depression by believing in the power of the will. Apparently he succeeded to some extent because in 1872 he accepted a teaching position at Harvard in physiology, commenting that “it is a noble thing for one’s spirits to have some responsible work to do” (James, 1902, p. 167).
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Personally I'd much rather live in a bounteous world where we have just randomly wound up with the ability to experience joy, pleasure and fulfilment than some bullshit world where we struggle to understand some great meaning imposed from without. So what if I can trace my enjoyment of chocolate to some childhood experience and a genetic predisposition and my enjoyment doesn't really matter? Still better than knowing that bad shit happens because the universe has some ultimate plan or function.
Honestly, you sound somewhat depressed. That's cool, but you need to avoid dwelling on existential bullshit like this. Set yourself a challenge, change something about yourself and tell me if the highs and lows you experience on that journey are worthwhile or not.
Behavioural systems are certainly based on repetition and reinforcement, but rationality and the ability to change your environment are very real ways to change or instill new values within your life. Psychological development is the process of practicing mental eugenics, embrace your ability to apprehend patterns and apply rational logic in order to direct your development and you can achieve many things, not least of which is learning to value your own existence.
Sitting about wondering if you are wasting your time and getting morose is a mug's game. Fuck the cold reality of the universe, it will go on without you.
Even though Curethan and I seem to disagree in regards to free-will (I don't think we have it, or if we do then it's so shriveled and malnourished as to be near useless), but I nonetheless agree with everything said here. Just live life. Most importantly, in my opinion, find someone to live life with. A girlfriend. A best friend. A mentor. Whatever. Find a partner, in the broadest sense of the term, and revel in their existence, so they might revel in yours.
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I for one appreciate experiencing and thinking about the absolute peak moments I have communicating with you lot. It's the most meaningful meaninglessness, if that's the case.
Oh, as do I. Hell, I can genuinely say that our discussions are some of my favorite parts of being alive right now. That may sound super weird but it's the truth. And that's why the meaninglessness doesn't matter. Even if it's an illusion, it's an illusion that CANNOT BE ESCAPED. Even enlightenment has its routine.
That's why I said: Just go along with the ride. Pursue interests. Gather knowledge. Create art. Make friends. Do drugs. Have sex. Make love. BE IN LOVE. There's a reason some people think love is the metaphysical core of reality. I certainly don't think that's true in a high-level reality sense, but I think the concept has merit in the human universe. Love is one of the few things that can undercut FEARS of all kind. Fear of death, even, and that's almost always the greatest fear of all. But also the fear of meaninglessness. Love makes you not give a shit about the illusion. And again, I'm not necessarily talking about romantic love. I mean love for the brother and the sister, the other apes we're all in this together with. My love for Madness, for making this forum and so we can all be here talking, and my love for the communications we've had. My love for all of my friends, online or off, however much I may dislike them at certain times. My love for my girlfriend, of course, and the other romantic interests I've had in my lifetime. My love for my parents and family. That feeling is still REAL. Just because it's made up of chemical processes instead of supernatural soul-energy doesn't change a damn thing.
The point, I guess, is this: Who cares if it's an illusion? Why do you read books? Why do you watch movies? It's the EXPERIENCE. That's all we have, and I say we work with it and make life as great as possible for everyone involved. Whether we have a choice in the matter is irrelevant at that point.
It's hard for me to explain, but I believe I may be one of the more optimistic pessimists I've ever met. I'd like to meet more. :)
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I'd echo Madness and definitely seek out a therapist or a hotline.
Maybe it's because I spent a long time as a crazy child believing in an indeterministic universe, and have a soft spot for variations on the Argument from Reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_reason#Similar_views_by_other_thinkers), but I've yet to be totally convinced by anyone's arguments that free will isn't real and apparently John Lucas (http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jrlucas/Godel/turn.html) & the guy who runs Conscious Entities aren't either.
(http://www.consciousentities.com/personhood.htm)
I had a friend who was a depressed determinist who converted to spirituality because of ayahuasca. Now I'm not saying Mother Ayahuasca is a real goddess but the important thing is if you just commit suicide you will never know exactly what that experience was so make attending an ayahuasca church ceremony your goal.
On a less extreme note, check out philosophers like McGinn (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1999/jun/10/can-we-ever-understand-consciousness/?pagination=false) and Chalmers (http://consc.net/papers/nature.html). Not everyone in philosophy is as convinced about how consciousness actually works. Heck, Chalmers even considers neutral monism and panpsychism as more likely than materialism, and McGinn wonders if mental causality is really the same as physical causality. (http://www.closertotruth.com/video-profile/How-Can-Free-Will-Work-Colin-McGinn-/792)
It relates to the whole experience thing Francis was talking about, but I guess I'm also saying take a gamble on philosophical conclusions being wrong. Remember until quantum mechanics few people were seriously considering the acausal events of indeterminism.
And speaking of QM, have you heard of Penrose-Hammeroff's Orch-OR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d5RetvkkuQ)? It posits consciousness is the collapse of the wave function and thus would precede the causal, classical universe.
I couldn't help but think it was reaching but there's actually unexpected corroborating evidence (http://www.kurzweilai.net/discovery-of-quantum-vibrations-in-microtubules-inside-brain-neurons-corroborates-controversial-20-year-old-theory-of-consciousness).
There's just so much weird stuff out there that suggest we don't know as much as we think we do, whether it's Krippner's weird Grateful Dead telepathy results (http://www.sfweekly.com/2012-04-25/news/the-grateful-dead-parapsychology-dream-telepathy-joe-eskenazi/) or just the placebo effect. (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18524911.600-13-things-that-do-not-make-sense.html#.UvnfE_ZsjGw)
Even if ultimately free will is illusory you don't know that now with 100% certainty, and even then some philosophers believe there's a place for meaningful living. I think Madness said on the old boards that the idea of a willful self is worth fighting for [and I'd echo that sentiment].
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Addendum:
Madness mentioned Krishnamurti, and I made a thread about the guy here (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1155.0).
eta: I should mention Searle, as he posits the physical body creates consciousness but there's still a possibility for free will. Here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rZfSTpjGl8).
eta: Maybe Searle is supposing a model for the mind like the one described here (http://www.informationphilosopher.com/introduction/)? Note other quantum consciousness possibilities here (http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/) & here (http://quantum-mind.co.uk/).
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@Royce; if you are going to drop mushies in a depressed state, ensure that you have a trusted buddy that will help you by discussing the issues you are struggling with
Yeah, this is very important indeed.
Some practical advice could also help here. Just get out and run, run til you fall flat on the ground. Exercise can make wonders. Clean your flat, every fucking inch of it. Anything to exhaust your body, and your brain will reward you.
You know that this boils down to a perspective that you have created on your own right? This downward spiral that you have created is obviously not good for you, so why not create something else? Don`t give up until you have at least tried to change your perspective, because it can be done so easily. You have let yourself be convinced by words all your life, why not do that one more time, just to break the spiral and start to flow again.
Again Alan Watts shares your perspective, but with a slightly different approach to the problem. Seek out other sources of information, like Madness suggested.
Depression is of course a complex matter, but often there are just small adjustments that need to be done.
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Interesting answers, I'll respond later today when I have the time.
I'll keep up my visits to the psychiatrist, even though I feel they're pointless. Need to buy more antidepressant pills as well. More exercise is probably a good idea, although running didn't help me at all.
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More exercise is probably a good idea, although running didn't help me at all.
I won't pretend to be as well spoken or educated as many of your respondents are... But, when I was depressed several years back, drinking myself to sleep every day and filling in the gaps either being stoned or experimenting with a myriad of other drugs, I contemplated suicide often.
While there might have been many contributing factors that helped me climb out of my downward spiral, running is what by far and large helped me the most.
It wasn't just running.. (1 or 2 miles) Endurance Running is where it is at. It saved my life. I recommend setting several fitness goals and running a half or full marathon. (and then doing it again and again)
Out of all my daily actions, to me at least, only running is real.
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I will echo GJ that diet, exercise, especially, and when practiced, meditation, are all supremely important in contributing to overall positive affect (feelings).
But, elsewise, I'm just waiting to listen for the moment whenever that happens to be.
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Hi, OP.
I agree with post above. Exercise a lot, go long-distance running or hit the gym, those endorphins will make you feel better. Use party drugs, get laid, whatever. If everything in life ever is a pointless distraction, then you can at least engage in the more pleasant distractions.
You're obviously into reading. Try reading something else than neuroscience books and manic-depressed German philosophers, it'll only fuck with your head if you're already depressed yourself.
Another thing: I see the reductionist "I'm not a real person, everybody is nobody" is a bit of a main theme in your OP. But how's your own suffering "real" then? How can the suffering be real, if the sufferers are not?
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Oh, and the infamous Tom Ligotti book you linked to, I've read it years ago. Here's a fairly good response to his EVERYTHING IS HORRIBLY USELESS author tract:
http://lovecraftzine.com/magazine/issues/2012-2/issue-13-april-2012/this-inscrutable-light-a-response-to-thomas-ligottis-the-conspiracy-against-the-human-race-by-brandon-h-bell/ (http://lovecraftzine.com/magazine/issues/2012-2/issue-13-april-2012/this-inscrutable-light-a-response-to-thomas-ligottis-the-conspiracy-against-the-human-race-by-brandon-h-bell/)
Stop reading books by mentally diseased people, and start reading things you actually enjoy. Don't start wallowing in this negativity or get stuck in a feedback loop.
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Another thing: I see the reductionist "I'm not a real person, everybody is nobody" is a bit of a main theme in your OP. But how's your own suffering "real" then? How can the suffering be real, if the sufferers are not?
This. Although suffering can feel overwhelmingly real, just as ecstacy is a overwhelmingly positive feeling. Feelings are tricky.
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This. Although suffering can feel overwhelmingly real, just as ecstacy is a overwhelmingly positive feeling. Feelings are tricky.
I know.
I was just telling OP that he's not making sense: either both him and his suffering are real, or neither of them are.
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could not agree more.
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Auriga - I think I can relate to how you feel, at least partially. Throughout my life thinking of suicide has always been with me, although mostly as a kind of escape exit "If it gets worse, I can always kill myself". And not for any philosophical reasons, but simply because life sucks. Last week it got so bad, I even started thinking about technical details, fortunately I managed to climb out of my black hole.
What keeps me alive is mostly feeling of responsibility, I do not want to let down all those people who trust me, my principal, my students. Which is strange, as I also suffer from impostor syndrome, so whenever my professional achievements are praised I feel fear that people would find out that in reality I'm a cheat.
I've been in therapy, it helped some, not with everything. Last week I seriously considered going to a psychiatrist but did not get to arranging an appointment. Maybe I will, one day, or maybe I will go back to therapy. Or maybe my life circumstances will change enought to make me feel better.
Anyway, exercise is OK, endorphines make a great drug, but I would not stick to running. For me it's the most pointless activity ever, so I do aerobics, weight training and dancing instead. And it helps. Mostly. I also have people to whom I can talk, although the majority of them are on the internet. People around me, my colleagues, my students, know nothing about my real life, one of my colleagues even calls me "Sunshine". It seems I'm a master of disguise.
If I were you, I would keep going to psychiatrist. Sometimes the medication takes some time to kick in - or possibly it's time to think about trying something new? Often it's not the first drug that helps.
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Interesting thread, lots of food for thought here. Since there's so much discussion here, I'll answer your posts separately:
Francis
I might ask if you are married or have a partner of any kind?
Not anymore, no. My last relationship didn't end well. I'm not the easiest person to live with, as anyone can see from reading my posts.
When I say, "Just don't think about it," I don't mean never, ever think about it and become a drone in Disney world.
What do you mean, then?
But I do mean to live a lie. LIVE THE LIE. Why the fuck not?
I can't force myself to live a lie, if I know it's a lie. Once those pleasant illusions are gone, they're not coming back. I've said before that I'm terrible at compartmentalizing my thoughts - other people can easily stay in "ruthless cynicism" mode at work (or even "nilihism" mode if they're a philosophy professor), only to switch into "Disneyland fairytale" mode when they're back at home with their families, all of this without breaking a sweat. I don't have that ability.
In the end, I guess it comes down to biologically hardwired preferences - I guess I'm predisposed to have a gloomy temper and to value Truth over happiness. Even though I obviously want both, they seem to contradict each other.
Value doesn't exist, no. Everything is meaningless. But we, as human beings, create the illusion of meaning. We may not be doing it intentionally (after all, it's just a chemical process), but that's the lie that we need.
I agree.
We do need the lie of intentionality to function - but when you know it's a lie, what the hell can you do? Knock your head against a wall and hope for brain damage and memory loss?
Don't abandon your enlightenment.
It's not just that I won't abandon it, it's that I can't.
This is the great curse of consciousness.
Consciousness is a curse, I agree. As a great man once said, "to live is to suffer". Sure, things like pleasure and suffering aren't really quantifiable, but my life has definitely involved the latter more than the former.
Never having been born in the first place is probably my greatest wish.
But suicide does NOTHING. Most of the time it amounts largely to causing unnecessary pain to those around you.
And why should I care? When I'm gone, how will the "pain of those around me" affect me at all? Will I ever be aware of their pain that I killed myself?
Keep living it, and do it better.
Empty platitudes, lol.
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On to next answer:
Royce
You don`t have to be so convinced that all these people you read actually are right in their assumptions.
As far as I can infer, they're completely right. Empirical science definitely suggests that human consciousness is an emergent system (an epiphenomenon caused by pre-programmed biology, if you will) and not some sort of supernatural core in the center of our minds. I obviously can't prove they're correct, in the same way I can't prove God doesn't exist, but they're convincing to me. There's something called "inference to the best explanation", you might want to look it up.
I'm far too level-headed and rational (you might call it Aspergery) to make some sort of great leap of faith and believe in things that aren't empirical reality. I don't have a religious bone in my body.
I know that it is pretty convincing though, since I (and probably everyone on this board) share your perspective
If we both agree on these things, why are you even arguing with me at all?
I am sad, because I have been there, and I know there is a way out(at least for me there was).
What was you way out, then? Eating shrooms and reading Buddhist platitudes?
I would also recommend that you give Alan Watts a chance. He may be the only guy who have gotten my out of a depression by using words. The book: On the taboo against knowing who you are, is pure brilliance IMO. Just do me(this guy you do not know:)) a favor and read that one.
I have it on PDF now, will check it out later. Thanks for the recommendation, though.
Here is a little quote: "When you know for sure that your separate ego is a fiction, you actually feel yourself as the whole process and pattern of life." Psychedelics make you feel this, seriously. PM me if you want to talk more about this.
Ok, will do.
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Curethan
It is true that value and meaning are invested attributes. But why should this make them illusory simply because they have no material reality? Do you define logic and mathematics as illusory?
They're illusory because they don't correspond with material reality. Intentionality doesn't exist anywhere outside of the human imagination. There's nothing that suggests the universe around us has any purpose or meaning at all.
Math, on the other hand, does correspond with material reality. It's a "language" of symbols, if you will.
By your own definition, are they not manufactured by the functions of our biological processes? In which case they do come from without, but it's your game to manage and direct them.
Are you serious? I don't "manage and direct" my thoughts, nobody does. They're the result of unconscious processes that I don't control at all. It's funny you bring this up on a Bakker forum, of all places.
Personally, I disagree that free will is an illusion. Certainly, the latitude of our ability to determine our own actions is grossly over-estimated and the realization of this has led many to consider that the opposite is true. Especially the depressive philosophers like Schopenhauer et al.
Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree then.
I would recommend reading up on chaos and complex systems if you think that we live in a clockwork, predetermined universe. "Chaos" by James Gleik is an easy read that changed the way I look at the world. Nothing ever repeats perfectly, so how can we truly be bound to repeat ourselves? Our behaviours are bifurcating chaotic patterns, they may look similar but differences propagate, multiply and are winnowed.
I'll check out that book as well. Lots of reading on my list for this week, it seems.
Honestly, you sound somewhat depressed.
Thanks, Captain Obvious.
That's cool, but you need to avoid dwelling on existential bullshit like this.
I can't avoid dwelling on it. I always have this gnawing suspicion, every hour of every day, that it's this nihilist/determinist view that is the Truth and that everything else is delusional bullshit.
Set yourself a challenge, change something about yourself and tell me if the highs and lows you experience on that journey are worthwhile or not.
Challenges are meaningless. So what if I overcome them? What then? I can't think of a reason why I'd want to change anything about myself.
Sitting about wondering if you are wasting your time and getting morose is a mug's game. Fuck the cold reality of the universe, it will go on without you.
I agree, sitting around and whining is a waste of time. But then again, my whole existence is a waste of time. I can't "avoid" thinking about this, and that's why suicide is looking like a better and better option with each day.
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Auriga, you sound very much like a friend of mine, who is severely depressed. And just like I don't know what to tell her, I don't know what to tell you. Telling you things like "you need to stop thinking those depressing thoughts", "you need to do something positive" won't work, this never works. Even though dwelling on things that make you feel even worse is quite typical for depression.
So I guess I can say only that - I sincerely hope you find something that will make you feel better.
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As far as I can infer, they're completely right. Empirical science definitely suggests that human consciousness is an emergent system (an epiphenomenon caused by pre-programmed biology, if you will) and not some sort of supernatural core in the center of our minds. I obviously can't prove they're correct, in the same way I can't prove God doesn't exist, but they're convincing to me. There's something called "inference to the best explanation", you might want to look it up.
Well, I would wait until it is an undisputed fact before I conclude. Who knows what will be discovered next. To make such a drastic choice as ending your life, based on something that is suggested seems to me a bit hasty.
If we both agree on these things, why are you even arguing with me at all?
I agree with the description, but I do not agree that it has to be viewed as pessimistic or meaningless. That is just a matter of perspective.
What was you way out, then? Eating shrooms and reading Buddhist platitudes?
You can be as condescending as you like sir, it does not change the fact that it might help you too. I have not really read much buddhism, or any eastern religion really. I sincerely think that direct experience work much better than words. Many examples are already mentioned, but IMO psychedelics did something indescribable. There is a difference between thinking/reading about being punched in your face, and actually being punched. Psychedelics punch you.Hard. Being smeared all over the universe, has to do something to you. What it does is not for me to say, it has to be experienced. But again, it is extremely important that you treat them with respect, and honestly, I am not sure it is a good idea if you suffer from a mental illness. If you are diagnosed with something, I would tread lightly and do some research before I entered the universe.
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Sciborg
Maybe it's because I spent a long time as a crazy child believing in an indeterministic universe, and have a soft spot for variations on the Argument from Reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_reason#Similar_views_by_other_thinkers), but I've yet to be totally convinced by anyone's arguments that free will isn't real and apparently John Lucas (http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jrlucas/Godel/turn.html) & the guy who runs Conscious Entities aren't either. (http://www.consciousentities.com/personhood.htm)
Interesting links. I'll make sure to read them after responding to the other posts here.
I've read some of Conscious Entities, and he seems to be pretty skeptical about most things. Not quite sure what his own views are, since he brings up other philosophers most of the time. His articles on Thomas Metzinger (another determinist philosopher who I mostly agree with) were interesting, I gotta reread them sometime.
I had a friend who was a depressed determinist who converted to spirituality because of ayahuasca. Now I'm not saying Mother Ayahuasca is a real goddess but the important thing is if you just commit suicide you will never know exactly what that experience was so make attending an ayahuasca church ceremony your goal.
::)
Not everyone in philosophy is as convinced about how consciousness actually works. Heck, Chalmers even considers neutral monism and panpsychism as more likely than materialism, and McGinn wonders if mental causality is really the same as physical causality. (http://www.closertotruth.com/video-profile/How-Can-Free-Will-Work-Colin-McGinn-/792)
I've read some of Chalmers, but not enough to be able to comment (IIRC, Brassier's Nihil Unbound criticized him a lot). As for the other guy, Colin McGinn, he seems to believe in a semi-religious dogma of "we can't discover anything more about consciousness, this is it." It all sounds a bit too neat to me, IMO. And it's unsatisfying, especially in this age where we're learning more and more about how the brain actually works every year. Neuroscience has totally changed the way we look at human consciousness.
(If there were things we couldn't possibly discover or infer, we wouldn't be worried about them in the first place - what difference would they make to us? If the answers of consciousness are completely beyond us, then the questions should be beyond us too. Dogs can't understand nuclear physics, but that's because they don't get that there's anything there to understand in the first place.)
It relates to the whole experience thing Francis was talking about, but I guess I'm also saying take a gamble on philosophical conclusions being wrong. Remember until quantum mechanics few people were seriously considering the acausal events of indeterminism.
Don't know enough about quantum mechanics to comment on this, TBH.
There's just so much weird stuff out there that suggest we don't know as much as we think we do, whether it's Krippner's weird Grateful Dead telepathy results (http://www.sfweekly.com/2012-04-25/news/the-grateful-dead-parapsychology-dream-telepathy-joe-eskenazi/) or just the placebo effect. (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18524911.600-13-things-that-do-not-make-sense.html#.UvnfE_ZsjGw)
Never heard of those Krippner telepathy experiments, either. Since this is the first time I ever hear about them, they can't have been especially convincing, so excuse me if I'm still seriously doubting that telepathy exists.
Anyways, thanks for the reading tips. Whew, that's one huge pile of books on the "to read" list for this week...
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And for the second time...
Francis (again)
And that's why the meaninglessness doesn't matter. Even if it's an illusion, it's an illusion that CANNOT BE ESCAPED.
How's that a good thing? I can only see two ways to get out of the situation I'm in:
1) suicide
2) drug use, until I'm too stoned to think normally
3) memory loss
Either way, the only way for me to cope with the illusion is to not know that it's an illusion.
That's why I said: Just go along with the ride.
Don't see any point in it.
Pursue interests. Gather knowledge. Create art. Make friends. Do drugs. Have sex. Make love. BE IN LOVE.
Why? They're all meaningless in the end.
There's a reason some people think love is the metaphysical core of reality.
That's because most people are idiots who think the universe revolves around them and their feelings.
Love is one of the few things that can undercut FEARS of all kind. Fear of death, even, and that's almost always the greatest fear of all. But also the fear of meaninglessness. Love makes you not give a shit about the illusion. And again, I'm not necessarily talking about romantic love.
YAWN. More platitudes.
The point, I guess, is this: Who cares if it's an illusion? Why do you read books? Why do you watch movies? It's the EXPERIENCE. That's all we have, and I say we work with it and make life as great as possible for everyone involved. Whether we have a choice in the matter is irrelevant at that point.
Why should I make life as great as possible for everyone else involved (and, for that matter, for myself?)?
So I can feel morally superior and pat myself on the back? So I can satisfy my herd-animal instinct, a pointless instinct that exists only to perpetuate a pointless species, to feel altruistic?
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Never heard of those Krippner telepathy experiments, either. Since this is the first time I ever hear about them, they can't have been especially convincing, so excuse me if I'm still seriously doubting that telepathy exists.
Oh, I wasn't saying telepathy definitely exists, just that there's so many weird results like the ones Krippner got and so many things left to be found. My point was that there's still so much weird stuff out there, which is why I mentioned the placebo effect. Basically my point was Krippner, who's never been convinced by his own unusual results after decades of work, still was driven by the curiosity of what might be possible.
Part of the reason to stick around is to see what unfolds, and part of it is to experience things yourself. Why I suggested the ayahuasca ceremony. If you're thinking of doing drugs anyway might as well try and do something that could change the way you perceive things. Curiosity seems like a good reason to stay alive.
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You describe your emotions and thoughts very well, Auriga and most of it mirrors my own thoughts and reflections in the last years a bit.
When I realized most of the things in the world aren't as meaningful and substantial, as many people told me, they should be, I fell in a hole. Like Nietzsche said: "And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
It began with the books I read. In the last years I couldn't read a lot comedy and satire books or somewhat "light", "positive" or "friendly" literature. Almost all my books I bought in the last years had a "dark" and "heavy" theme, a lot to think about, or need to be very grim and depressing. I can't read a book about true love or some positive way of life anymore.
I have a relatively negative view of the world and I'm really unsure about my own perspective of living since I have read Bakker's books, Ligotti, and other authors. It is feels like a long-drawn-out depression. I have thought to visit a psychiatrist or therapeut, because I'm often very sad or oddly bored of many things ( especially human interactions and similar things ). But everytime I say to me:"What can he tell me, that I don't know myself?" and I don't go.
In my job as a pre-school teacher I have a lot a lot of kids around me - mostly 20 or more, 3-6 years old - and all my colleagues are women with families and a a very clear conception of their way of life ( and all the Illusions and self-adulation which come with it in my opinion...) The work with the kids is stressful but also sometimes entertaining and funny. But in the conversations with my female colleagues I'm being infamous because of my cynical comments and "realistic" evaluations of situations and dialogues with the staff and the parents. And it is getting worse, I think.
From time to time I think, I'm beginning to lose my human empathy because of my negative and nihilistic opinions about life and human existence. This mindset seems to be REALLY out of place in my kind of job. What brings me through the day most of the time, is one hope: That I can teach the little kids some kind of basics, which almost none of my colleagues could not or want not to do: to be able to think critically in school and life in a few years, to conceive their OWN opinion about the world and their living, despite the typical indoctrination in the political, religious and cultural beliefs of their parents or teachers.
I have often dark ideas and thoughts and need to keep my inner demon at bay, sometimes the chains of reality barely holding up his struggle to throw me finally in a meaningless darkness. But every once in a while I NEED to say to me, there are a lot of things, which are interesting enough for me, to enjoy life: More Knowledge about history, write my own stories, see interesting places, meet interesting people and learn new, fresh ideas and so on. Some of the time it works well, sometimes it doesn't work at all.
But I keep struggling for now, I hope it will be enough.
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But everytime I say to me:"What can he tell me, that I don't know myself?" and I don't go.
You might be surprised. I didn't think therapy could help but it can be pretty great just to talk to someone who isn't in your circle.
@Auriga:
First, definitely read the link (http://lovecraftzine.com/magazine/issues/2012-2/issue-13-april-2012/this-inscrutable-light-a-response-to-thomas-ligottis-the-conspiracy-against-the-human-race-by-brandon-h-bell/)suggested by Phallus Pendulus as it's an interesting response to Ligotti.
Minor point on Philosophers - I'm obviously more sympathetic to McGinn's "Mysterian" idea but I think we might conceive of questions without being able to conceive of answers...and our inability results in us retreating to the easy ones inherit in materialism.
Just seems the more I read/watch/listen the less sure I am about the supposedly obvious conclusions. Hoffman, who deals with perception (http://www.cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/interface.pdf), dares to suggest Idealism is possible while noting we're not in a position to figure it out:
Although the interface theory is compatible with idealism, it is not idealism, because it proposes no speci fic model of objective reality, but leaves the nature of objective reality as an open scientifi c problem.
Finally, regarding consciousness as an emergent phenomenon I've read critiques that this seems to lead to Chalmers' dreaded panpsychism anyway. IIRC the issue related to how the qualia of subjective experience emerge from non-conscious material.
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And finally we get to the aspect-emperor of the forum, the big cheese, the numero uno:
Madness:
I'm responding but I do want to note that please seek out every available counter-argument (including, and especially, direct criticisms of the authors who have affected this "negative enlightenment" in you)
I haven't found any convincing counter-arguments to any of them. How do you argue against philosophies that are grounded in actual cognitive psychology and empirical science? I don't especially want to be an eliminativist or a nihilist, but I can't disprove these views.
As for Bakker in particular...I've never seen any valid counter-arguments to The Argument, and I can't think of any. The only serious one I've seen was a review of Neuropath that basically played a semantics-game and redefined the concept of "self": http://www.shaviro.com/Blog/?p=698 (http://www.shaviro.com/Blog/?p=698)
Other than that, the most common criticism of Bakker's position seems to be "Bakker is a sexist poo-poo head, I hate him".
You've not seen the value I do in my views in other, similar conversations so I won't reiterate them here. I believe you are valuable in that you have unique experiences and knowledge unavailable to me and you've already expanded me much in your interaction here in the past (almost) twoish years.
Thanks, I guess.
To be fair, people say Neuropath is the amateur Ligotti. My main question of such thinkers is "are the criterion by which you establish meaninglessness a result of sociocultural organization as it has stood/stands?" If so, then every nihilist has an obligation to affect change in society and cultural to prove that every sociocultural arrangement actually does result in meaninglessness.
Interesting. Could you explain it further?
(The nihilist view, which I share, is that socio-cultural arrangements exist only for evolutionary purposes, which are ultimately meaningless and purposeless.)
However, why is the goal of suicide the result?
I'm not saying that nihilism = suicide. A real nihilist would be indifferent to life or death. I'm just saying that there's no actual reason why life is objectively better than death. From a purely rational standpoint, the choice of life isn't any superior to death. Looking at it from a nihilist/materialist point of view: if you want to kill yourself, there's really no reason not to.
Almost all my life, I've been a melancholic sort of person. This is far from my first depression, and I'll probably have many more if I live into old age. Why shouldn't I end it all?
How do you know that all those thinkers that contribute to this worldview aren't poor arguers
This is a non-question. How do I prove God doesn't exist?
You're basically asking me to tell myself: "I believe science is wrong because I want it to be wrong."
If what exists, if what we experience is inherently meaninglessness, what is to stop us, truly, from making that meaninglessness beautiful?
You first have to decide that "beautiful" is an objectively meaningful concept, lol. I don't think it is.
Why does the result always have to be incapacitation? Why does the reaction have to be one of apathetic futility?
I dunno. It's probably got a lot to do with the fact that people who have these existential doubts are usually introverted people. Quiet, thoughtful people who spend a lot of time in abstract thinking. They're not extroverted, energetic go-getters (those kind of people are usually more interested in other people than in abstract ideas) who have lots of motivation to change things.
Introverted people usually get overwhelmed by these kinds of thoughts, and become mentally paralyzed.
Isn't it possible that there is coherency beyond what our human brains can perceive? Isn't it likely that humans don't actually know enough about anything for nihilism, religions, philosophy to be "the way things are?"
No. If we can't perceive or infer it, then it can't exist for us.
It doesn't matter if there's a coherency or purpose beyond what our brains can know, it's really a non-issue.
I want to engage life.
Good for you.
Auriga, I value your unique reality-tunnel and I still wish to spend a whole lifetime learning from differences between us.
Thanks for the compliment, I suppose, although "my" reality tunnel isn't really "mine" in any real sense - it was all a pointless delusion of being a person.
Anyways, to end this debate:
"Since there's no personal God and no gods, no good and no evil, no right and no wrong, no meaning and no purpose, it means that there aren't any no values that are inherently valuable. There's no justice that is ultimately justifiable, no reasoning that is fundamentally rational, and no sane way to choose between science, religion, racism, philosophy, nationalism, conservatism, nihilism, liberalism, surrealism, fascism, asceticism, subjectivism, elitism, or ismism. If reason is incapable of deducing ultimate non-arbitrary human ends, and nothing can be judged as ultimately more important than anything else, then freedom is equal to slavery, cruelty is equal to kindness, love is equal to hate, destruction is equal to creation, life is equal to death, and death is equal to life."
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Auriga, who said that last quote? I guess I've never really understood the idea behind big-M "Meaning", since things feeling meaningful always seemed subjective and thus a personal pursuit to me.
Why does the possible lack of Meaning prevent you from finding things that are personally meaningful?
(Also made a new thread to discuss stuff like Krippner's results here (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1156.0).)
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Auriga, who said that last quote?
It's from a suicide note (the world's longest one, the guy wrote more than 1000 pages before he shot himself in the Harvard yard). I agree with most of what he says.
Why does the possible lack of Meaning prevent you from finding things that are personally meaningful?
Because there is no "I" in any real sense. Once those comforting illusions are broken, I can't go back and live a lie.
Maybe I'm clinically insane. I don't know.
First, definitely read the link (http://lovecraftzine.com/magazine/issues/2012-2/issue-13-april-2012/this-inscrutable-light-a-response-to-thomas-ligottis-the-conspiracy-against-the-human-race-by-brandon-h-bell/)suggested by Phallus Pendulus as it's an interesting response to Ligotti.
The critique of Ligotti is pretty well thought-out, but he completely redefines "Truth" for the sake of the argument (he writes that Truth is a completely subjective thing, and more of a heuristic experience than a divine commandment of Nature/God/whatever). His conclusion wasn't that impressive.
Maybe he does have a point - that there's some higher truths or realities that we're not able to grasp, while our brains are hardwired to constantly search for the truth. So every time we decide on a final ultimate Truth (whether it's Christianity or Nihilism or whatever), it will inevitably turn out to be flawed and unsatisfactory.
An interesting article, all in all. Reminds me a lot of the "total uncertainty" of Celia Green, in many ways.
Just seems the more I read/watch/listen the less sure I am about the supposedly obvious conclusions.
I suppose that's one way of dealing with existential doubts, lol. Overloading your brain with all sorts of different philosophies and scientific theories, until you just break down from the overload and throw up your hands in the air and admit "All I know is that I don't know a shit."
Finally, regarding consciousness as an emergent phenomenon I've read critiques that this seems to lead to Chalmers' dreaded panpsychism anyway.
Panpsychism makes no sense to me. If "everything is conscious", what even counts as a "thing"? If my shoe is conscious, is any part of it separately conscious too? Is the (arbitrary but valid) object consisting of my foot inside the shoe a conscious mind?
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An interesting article, all in all. Reminds me a lot of the "total uncertainty" of Celia Green, in many ways.
Interesting coincidence that she's been recommended to me in varied circles this last week. The crazier subpersonals in my blind brain would dare to suggest it's Jungian synchronicity (http://www.carl-jung.net/synchronicity.html)! ;)
Thanks, will check her out.
Because there is no "I" in any real sense. Once those comforting illusions are broken, I can't go back and live a lie.
Maybe I'm clinically insane. I don't know.
This makes me think of the question on Conscious Entities - If the I is an illusion who is being fooled? If there's no "you" who is suffering?
As for clinical insanity, I suspect many people are. I know my underlying feeling of indeterminism is a symptom of anxiety, but it does make things funner in the mental sphere as it leads to:
I suppose that's one way of dealing with existential doubts, lol.
Heh, I think my brain exploded after nonlocality and what is apparently the lack of time at the quantum scale which allows for retrocausality!
I haven't even gotten to Hume's critique of causality itself...
Panpsychism makes no sense to me. If "everything is conscious", what even counts as a "thing"? If my shoe is conscious, is any part of it separately conscious too? Is the (arbitrary but valid) object consisting of my foot inside the shoe a conscious mind?
Oh, I'm not an advocate for panpsychism, it's just that I recall a philosopher who noted emergence has to include proto-consciousness in matter. As I remember the critique regarding emergence is all physical emergent properties like liquidity/wetness are extant in some sense within the molecules that make things up.
Chalmers goes into a similar critique of emergence in Consciousness and Its Place in Nature (http://consc.net/papers/nature.html) (linking again for convenience)
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OP, we can't solve the meaning of life for you. Do it yourself.
And for fuck's sake, stop reading other depressed people's texts. Tom Ligotti, suicide notes, etc etc. It'll just get you stuck in an endless loop of negativity.
I've known other depressive cases, a lot them seek out opinions like their own so they can wallow in their sadness and feel like WAH WAH NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME and affirm their own negative beliefs (Holy moral certainty, Bakker!). Don't get stuck in that situation.
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Auriga, I'm left wondering if something is screwing up your base enjoyment of the world and the 'loss of meaning' is just a sideshow? A false blame for that?
Where do you live? Apart from the medication, do you use drugs? What do you remember about being a child?
Regardless of what you think you know, if there is various interupting damage from these sources or to it in the latter case, this is is part of what is happening.
Perhaps bring a copy of neuropath for your psychologist... :)
And for fuck's sake, stop reading other depressed people's texts. Tom Ligotti, suicide notes, etc etc. It'll just get you stuck in an endless loop of negativity.
I've known other depressive cases, a lot them seek out opinions like their own so they can wallow in their sadness and feel like WAH WAH NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME and affirm their own negative beliefs (Holy moral certainty, Bakker!). Don't get stuck in that situation.
I second this! Just looking for evidence for the conclusion you are already fixed upon is not looking for evidence at all, it's just looking for confirmation.
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Honestly, you sound somewhat depressed.
Thanks, Captain Obvious.
I am not a doctor or therapist, although I have some experience dealing with depressives. I am not about to make bald-faced diagnoses on people's mental health. You did not state depression in your OP, so I cautiously present my opinion rather than risking offence by claiming your argument less valid because you are not of sound mind.
Depression means that one's judgement in situations like this cannot be trusted. It's not merely a feeling or conclusion, it is a condition.
Your argument for suicide makes as little logical sense to me as those I have heard from my brother (anxiety and depression) and my ex (bipolar), although your points are quite different.
Clearly, I have no intellectual or emotional authority to lend you in this matter, so I will opt out of the discussion lest I somehow reinforce your convictions. But know that I value the small impact you have had on my life; I wish you all the best and hope that you can find a way to view your own life in a more positive fashion.
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Because there is no "I" in any real sense. Once those comforting illusions are broken, I can't go back and live a lie.
The funny thing is that this realization has been around for ages, nothing new about it at all. You are kind of saying that since western science finally ended up with the same conclusion, it is finally ok to grasp it as truth. Why is it that people who arrive at the same conclusion (there is no I) end up on opposite sides of an emotional scale? That seems weird right? some end up depressed, and some end up full of wonder, joy and awe of it all. I think the difference lies in how you obtain this realization. As I have mentioned before there is a huge difference between reading it and feeling it. By just reading you will not really understand it in the same way as someone who has felt it.
Have you tried to define what makes you reach out and seek help? What is that "drive" that urges you to talk about this with strangers? Why anti-depressants? Psychotherapy? Don`t you think that deep down on a emotional level you most of all want to be convinced that you are wrong? I think that this urge/drive you have actually is the will to live, and you prove that you have it by reaching out in your own special way. Keep your chin up sir and hopefully you will get through this.
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And for fuck's sake, stop reading other depressed people's texts. Tom Ligotti, suicide notes, etc etc. It'll just get you stuck in an endless loop of negativity.
Sums up my thoughts nicely. Sounds like you mostly seek out stuff that you'll likely agree with even though you're trying to have a debate with yourself. Kind of a one sided debate if you only arm one side. As the sole debater, its your responsibility to find evidence for both sides else there really is no debate.
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My own reservations come from a sense of limited scope. I occupy such an insignificant slice of history (though I concede that I could be doing a lot more with yon slice). Maybe I would feel more fulfilled if I were to have access to more of existence, or maybe I should stop watching time-travel films.
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Don`t you think that deep down on a emotional level you most of all want to be convinced that you are wrong?
Of course I want to be convinced that I'm wrong.
(AFAIK, even Bakker himself said the same thing in the Neuropath foreword - that he's found himself in the bizarre position of wanting his own theory to be wrong, since it goes against all the pleasant fictions our brains tell themselves.)
I think that this urge/drive you have actually is the will to live, and you prove that you have it by reaching out in your own special way.
The will to live isn't necessarily a good thing.
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Auriga, I'm left wondering if something is screwing up your base enjoyment of the world and the 'loss of meaning' is just a sideshow? A false blame for that?
Well, this could be something as simple as a neurotransmitter imbalance. Which is in a way scary, as it supports the concept that we are nothing but automata, governed by chemicals and electrical impulses.
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My own reservations come from a sense of limited scope. I occupy such an insignificant slice of history (though I concede that I could be doing a lot more with yon slice). Maybe I would feel more fulfilled if I were to have access to more of existence, or maybe I should stop watching time-travel films.
So many of these films use the time loop as if it's original. At least Continuum makes you guess what kind of time travel it uses.
I've read time doesn't exist at the quantum level, and that it might be an emergent phenomenon only existing for those within the universe...which raises new questions about why things seem to follow rationally from moment to moment...might make a thread for this but want to do some reading.
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I've read time doesn't exist at the quantum level, and that it might be an emergent phenomenon only existing for those within the universe...which raises new questions about why things seem to follow rationally from moment to moment...might make a thread for this but want to do some reading.
Time does not exist while tripping either. Is that proof of me being in a other universe while tripping? :P
Or maybe I visited the quantum world? Just kidding. Make that thread happen sci:)
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Auriga, I'm left wondering if something is screwing up your base enjoyment of the world and the 'loss of meaning' is just a sideshow? A false blame for that?
Well, this could be something as simple as a neurotransmitter imbalance. Which is in a way scary, as it supports the concept that we are nothing but automata, governed by chemicals and electrical impulses.
I was looking at enviromental effects.
The fact is compared to our ancient ancestors we live in blasted, horrible wastelands - there are no food baring trees or plants. Such a place, for our primitive lower brain, is apocalypse. Money makes no sense to that lower brain.
Generally everyones over the top faith in capitalism tends to move that lower brain to feel fine about living in a blasted landscape, as if 'everything will be all right'.
While I wouldn't suggest that faith, I would suggest some sort of faith to stop the lower brain seeing utter doom all around - even though to a large degree it's right, weve severed ourselves from food prosperous territory. But you don't need it's howing - it's estimate of the blasted landscape (I mean blasted as in covered in concrete and no food bearing plants or animal prey to hunt) is only partly right.
Further that recreational drugs just overshadow and thus kill the natural feedback loops.
It's alot like Auriga is on a sinking boat and thinking since the water is up to his waist, he must want to sink under the water.
Atleast fix the damn boat so it floats, before figuring out whether you want to go under the waves. It's bullshit to let the boat decide this for anyone.
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What keeps me alive is mostly feeling of responsibility, I do not want to let down all those people who trust me, my principal, my students. Which is strange, as I also suffer from impostor syndrome, so whenever my professional achievements are praised I feel fear that people would find out that in reality I'm a cheat.
I've been in therapy, it helped some, not with everything. Last week I seriously considered going to a psychiatrist but did not get to arranging an appointment. Maybe I will, one day, or maybe I will go back to therapy. Or maybe my life circumstances will change enought to make me feel better.
Anyway, exercise is OK, endorphines make a great drug, but I would not stick to running. For me it's the most pointless activity ever, so I do aerobics, weight training and dancing instead. And it helps. Mostly. I also have people to whom I can talk, although the majority of them are on the internet. People around me, my colleagues, my students, know nothing about my real life, one of my colleagues even calls me "Sunshine". It seems I'm a master of disguise.
If I were you, I would keep going to psychiatrist. Sometimes the medication takes some time to kick in - or possibly it's time to think about trying something new? Often it's not the first drug that helps.
Men [humans], Kellhus had once told her, were like coins: they had two sides. Where one side of them saw, the other side of them was seen, and though all men were both at once, men could only truly know the side of themselves that saw and the side of others that was seen—they could only truly know the inner half of themselves and the outer half of others.
I wish your inside half solace of some kind, if only momentary. I've appreciated your words as I've come to know them so far.
In my job as a pre-school teacher I have a lot a lot of kids around me - mostly 20 or more, 3-6 years old - and all my colleagues are women with families and a a very clear conception of their way of life ( and all the Illusions and self-adulation which come with it in my opinion...) The work with the kids is stressful but also sometimes entertaining and funny. But in the conversations with my female colleagues I'm being infamous because of my cynical comments and "realistic" evaluations of situations and dialogues with the staff and the parents. And it is getting worse, I think.
From time to time I think, I'm beginning to lose my human empathy because of my negative and nihilistic opinions about life and human existence. This mindset seems to be REALLY out of place in my kind of job. What brings me through the day most of the time, is one hope: That I can teach the little kids some kind of basics, which almost none of my colleagues could not or want not to do: to be able to think critically in school and life in a few years, to conceive their OWN opinion about the world and their living, despite the typical indoctrination in the political, religious and cultural beliefs of their parents or teachers.
Many of us experience these kinds of jobs, Davias. Yours is obviously at a greatest juxtaposition, it seems clearly contrary.
But those colleagues grew up in one kind of cultural immersion, those kids have a chance at another.
We're here. We all seem to concede we live in this reality, that we are here, whatever that means. We can affect different worldviews ourselves.
But mostly, Davias, strengh. You are alive, you breath, heart beating in your chest like mine own. It matters most of all how we conduct ourselves in relation to reality experienced.
I'm responding but I do want to note that please seek out every available counter-argument (including, and especially, direct criticisms of the authors who have affected this "negative enlightenment" in you)
I haven't found any convincing counter-arguments to any of them. How do you argue against philosophies that are grounded in actual cognitive psychology and empirical science? I don't especially want to be an eliminativist or a nihilist, but I can't disprove these views.
I can empathize more with the intellectual/emotional disconnect. But to the bold - you can know more than those people. They spend years of study to allow you to make your "conclusion" now.
As for Bakker in particular...I've never seen any valid counter-arguments to The Argument, and I can't think of any. The only serious one I've seen was a review of Neuropath that basically played a semantics-game and redefined the concept of "self": http://www.shaviro.com/Blog/?p=698 (http://www.shaviro.com/Blog/?p=698)
We make changes to ourselves everyday in the form of our habits, what we experience. From that resulting flux, we come to see old perspectives framed within new perspectives. Work to affect some change in your cognition and see if it still looks as hopeless.
Practice an instrument, learn a language, practice ambidexterity, dance, martial art. Just like taking medications, diet and exercise both need time to build up and affect their change. You can intellectually make changes that might affect your emotional state.
Other than that, the most common criticism of Bakker's position seems to be "Bakker is a sexist poo-poo head, I hate him".
We both know this is unrealistic.
To be fair, people say Neuropath is the amateur Ligotti. My main question of such thinkers is "are the criterion by which you establish meaninglessness a result of sociocultural organization as it has stood/stands?" If so, then every nihilist has an obligation to affect change in society and cultural to prove that every sociocultural arrangement actually does result in meaninglessness.
Interesting. Could you explain it further?
(The nihilist view, which I share, is that socio-cultural arrangements exist only for evolutionary purposes, which are ultimately meaningless and purposeless.)
We live now, in this global sociocultural arrangement. I mean, the argument could be made that all such arrangements do "exist only for evolutionary purposes, which are ultimately meaningless and purposeless" but I don't think we can decide and know that without experience a number of different ones first. So to prove their argument, people who proclaim so should work towards making sure every one is absolutely meaningless and purposeless.
However, why is the goal of suicide the result?
I'm not saying that nihilism = suicide. A real nihilist would be indifferent to life or death. I'm just saying that there's no actual reason why life is objectively better than death. From a purely rational standpoint, the choice of life isn't any superior to death. Looking at it from a nihilist/materialist point of view: if you want to kill yourself, there's really no reason not to.
Almost all my life, I've been a melancholic sort of person. This is far from my first depression, and I'll probably have many more if I live into old age. Why shouldn't I end it all?
Well, I've voiced my selfish reasoning. Because I can still learn from you. By your living, you might affect "good" in the world, affect change for "better," and that is the chance I want to gamble on.
How do you know that all those thinkers that contribute to this worldview aren't poor arguers
This is a non-question. How do I prove God doesn't exist?
You're basically asking me to tell myself: "I believe science is wrong because I want it to be wrong."
I realize that can be taken this way. I wanted to say, if you were to critique these thinkers, who you have come to orient yourself with, based on the quality of their argument and not the content, would you still be so convinced? If the way they reached their conclusions are flawed...
If what exists, if what we experience is inherently meaninglessness, what is to stop us, truly, from making that meaninglessness beautiful?
You first have to decide that "beautiful" is an objectively meaningful concept, lol. I don't think it is.
You can't subjectively qualify anything as beautiful? Wondrous? Elegant? Evocative? Words? Paintings? Music? Nothing?
Why does the result always have to be incapacitation? Why does the reaction have to be one of apathetic futility?
I dunno. It's probably got a lot to do with the fact that people who have these existential doubts are usually introverted people. Quiet, thoughtful people who spend a lot of time in abstract thinking. They're not extroverted, energetic go-getters (those kind of people are usually more interested in other people than in abstract ideas) who have lots of motivation to change things.
Introverted people usually get overwhelmed by these kinds of thoughts, and become mentally paralyzed.
Absolutely. That doesn't mean they are outliers, either way. Introverted people might also be socialized that way. Our sociocultures don't make space for abstract thinking. Thus, those of us who do think these things are ostracized by the dominant strain. Doesn't mean we can't interact, together and what was an introverted experience might become something different.
Isn't it possible that there is coherency beyond what our human brains can perceive? Isn't it likely that humans don't actually know enough about anything for nihilism, religions, philosophy to be "the way things are?"
No. If we can't perceive or infer it, then it can't exist for us.
It doesn't matter if there's a coherency or purpose beyond what our brains can know, it's really a non-issue.
To the bold: that is only true in the sense of perception. All kinds of things that don't exist "for us" still exist and influence us...
I want to engage life.
Good for you.
You can too. Anyone can.
Auriga, I value your unique reality-tunnel and I still wish to spend a whole lifetime learning from differences between us.
Thanks for the compliment, I suppose, although "my" reality tunnel isn't really "mine" in any real sense - it was all a pointless delusion of being a person.
You are the only "thing" I can talk to at your particular intersect of matter, space, and time, with your particular history of experiences, thoughts, readings, etc. That makes you a unique distinction to me.
Anyways, to end this debate:
"Since there's no personal God and no gods, no good and no evil, no right and no wrong, no meaning and no purpose, it means that there aren't any no values that are inherently valuable. There's no justice that is ultimately justifiable, no reasoning that is fundamentally rational, and no sane way to choose between science, religion, racism, philosophy, nationalism, conservatism, nihilism, liberalism, surrealism, fascism, asceticism, subjectivism, elitism, or ismism. If reason is incapable of deducing ultimate non-arbitrary human ends, and nothing can be judged as ultimately more important than anything else, then freedom is equal to slavery, cruelty is equal to kindness, love is equal to hate, destruction is equal to creation, life is equal to death, and death is equal to life."
Since I qualify you dying as a negative thing, I would rather that these types of thinkers erred on the side of "good." I think (and do) you can have these types of thoughts and by the same twist of meaninglessness, not become incapacitated into thinking suicide is the only motion one can make. In fact, if it was meaninglessness and not our projecting meaninglessness onto the world, then you would have a larger percentage of these nihilist thinkers, turning around and spending their lives saving already living, starving children or something.
All things being equal.
Just offering some formalized thoughts, Auriga. Hope you're having a better/different day, one day at a time.
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Thanks, Madness. And I realised one more thing, while reading your post. I'm a hopeless humanist. Which means that my life motto is "Trying to make the world a better place". It's hopeless. It's naive. It's unrealistic. But that's part of my personality, and that's probably the other thing that keeps me afloat on those bad days.
(And then, there are these moments, like when on the last day of school two students came up to me with a bunch of flowers, saying that they want to thank me "for teaching them. About everything". Those moments are rare and far between, but when they happen, they're like a beacon of light.)
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Thanks, Madness. And I realised one more thing, while reading your post. I'm a hopeless humanist. Which means that my life motto is "Trying to make the world a better place". It's hopeless. It's naive. It's unrealistic. But that's part of my personality, and that's probably the other thing that keeps me afloat on those bad days.
(And then, there are these moments, like when on the last day of school two students came up to me with a bunch of flowers, saying that they want to thank me "for teaching them. About everything". Those moments are rare and far between, but when they happen, they're like a beacon of light.)
+1 the post, Alia.
To the bold, especially in this circumstance, I'm trying to sketch out practically how to adopt this perspective. And I don't believe it hopeless, naive, or unrealistic. Adopting that perspective of "trying to make the world a better place" means that we can speak and act in ways that aren't possible otherwise. We can make that real and then it ceases to be hopeless, naive, or unrealistic because we can affect change for real, in this reality :).
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The very existence of "purpose" and "value" as aspects of conscious experience makes the OP wrong.
(I'm not sure what the OP really means via the word "value". Is he talking about intrinsic goals and/or purposes? Is he considering material outcomes, or even meta-physical or spiritual outcomes? Does he consider the difference between subjective and objective valuations?)
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I'm a hopeless humanist.
Hopelessly hopeful, in other words? :)
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Auriga, sorry to be showing up so late to this thread--I hope you are well.
Not that long ago I nearly committed suicide myself. I had it all planned out, motive, opportunity, and means. I said goodbye in a roundabout way to everyone I loved and penned my last letter.
What stopped me was the nagging feeling that I couldn't be certain I was reading my own situation clearly. This is what I like about Socrates and what I like about Bakker--harping on the continuous state of ignorance we live in. So I called the suicide hotline and got help. Now I'm on drugs and its done wonders for me.
Since you are sharing on a Bakker forum, think back to when old Moe told Kellhus that his feeling of certainty was no mark of truth. Your feeling of certainty that you have your whole situation mapped out could be an illusion in ways that you are ignorant to. Science works because two brains are better than one and three is better than two and so on. Don't let your own brain decide it knows everything about itself. Get some more brains in on the issue--keep seeing your psychiatrist, reach out to friends and family, talk to people who you know you already disagree with. Suicide is so final, you should not leave any stone unturned and you are fooling yourself if you think you've turned them all over. Your presumption that you know know know the utter meaninglessness of everything is the very mark of the isolation of your intellect.
Also, I know everyone is saying exercise and drugs like prozac have a social stigma attached to them, but drugs are what works for me and its worked for others I know. Give it a try. Try different levels and combos, the shrink will know best. They take a while to kick in and then DON'T DON'T DON'T try to get off them when you feel better. You can get off them eventually, of course, but many people become dangers to themselves and others by getting off too soon and without consultation.
Peace, Auriga. I hope you are alive. I'm only in my 30's, but every big realization I've had in my life comes with "how could I have been so blind before?"