Rupert Sheldrake

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Wilshire

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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2013, 01:26:58 pm »
 ::)

I figured that was the last thing you wanted to hear, so I said it.

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Madness

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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2013, 01:44:41 pm »
While I note that you acknowledge that the person who makes the claim should provide the evidence, at the same time I think it is a bit rich to expect scientists to investigate what are largely preposterous claims.  The option is open to Sheldrake to assemble such a convincing body of evidence that would convincingly show that paranormal events do in fact occur.  Would he meet with criticism at the outset?  Of course, he would; and if he engaged with the criticism (i.e. performed his experiments a bit differently; eliminated this or that variable) his evidence would be a lot stronger (this is the point of peer-review and criticism: to make a stronger and more convincing case).  I submit that Sheldrake has not done this, and at present there is such poor and equivocal evidence for a paranormal event that anyone could reasonably dismiss such a claim.

The onus is on those who have knowledge to make sense of it to those who do not. There is just no other way for that dissemination to work.

I agree with everything you write. My problem is that there are an obscene number of qualified academics who aren't practicing - Sheldrake just happens to be one of them so I feel it necessary to go to task for the practice as I'm sure to make this argument over and over throughout my life.

Given the tools (which happens to equate to funding in our civilization, which happens to reflect the bottleneck of institutional ethical approval - ethic boards could be assembled in pretty much any local harboring academics, graduates, governments, and industry, not simply those employed by institutions) could Sheldrake form and test a hypothesis that grants null?

I'd see it fail before discounting it entirely on the grounds that it might. Any other points raised simply reflect the difficulty for any practicing academic to actually get grants - much less, without describing the gauntlet of ingrained bias and criticism and prevalent circles of power in ethical bodies.
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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2013, 06:05:59 pm »
The other thing to consider as far as genuine telepathy research is that, even if you threw billions of dollars at it, and still found absolutely no evidence whatsoever, it would still never dispel the "rumors" and conspiratorial ideas around it, because it's already classified as something potentially inexplicable by science. If science fails to prove it, then it just means science is wrong, or that telepathy is somehow out of the bounds of scientific inquiry. The same goes for ghosts, demons, God, etc.

Wilshire

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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 06:56:57 pm »
The same goes for ghosts, demons, God, etc.
One might say that any undeniable proof regarding the existence of God actually disproves its existence :), since, of course, the whole purpose is faith and with true proof there is no longer faith.
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Royce

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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 08:21:41 pm »
For those who are interested,here is a debate on the issue

http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies/telepathy_tape.html

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 08:50:22 pm »
For those who are interested,here is a debate on the issue

http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies/telepathy_tape.html

Oh wow thanks for that link. Nothing like a little bit of hard evidence in a discussion about science.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2013, 04:14:24 am »
I wonder what you do with things like Krippner's dream telepathy experiments though. I mean you have curious results, at least from what I've read, that AFAIK have never been replicated.

Psi just seems like one of those things that is a gloss on the material world. There's enough stuff out there to make one curious, but never enough evidence that you'd want to bet money on it.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 12:59:34 am by sciborg2 »

Royce

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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2013, 06:56:20 am »
Quote
Psi just seems like one of those things that is a gloss on the material world. There's enough stuff out there to make one curious, but never enough evidence that you'd want to bet money on it.

I agree,but if you listen to the debate,you will hear that there is a lot more to it than that.This boils down to two perspectives that crashes.For a materialist there is nothing more tabu than this subject,and as Sheldrake clearly states,they won`t even look at his evidence(just as the guy he is debating is looking away when he provides his evidence at this talk).

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I agree with everything you write. My problem is that there are an obscene number of qualified academics who aren't practicing - Sheldrake just happens to be one of them so I feel it necessary to go to task for the practice as I'm sure to make this argument over and over throughout my life.

What do you mean that he is not practicing? If he has collected data and conducted experiments according to the scientific method,and his results show well above chance on several occasions,wouldn`t you call that practice?

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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2013, 01:17:45 pm »
The other thing to consider as far as genuine telepathy research is that, even if you threw billions of dollars at it, and still found absolutely no evidence whatsoever, it would still never dispel the "rumors" and conspiratorial ideas around it, because it's already classified as something potentially inexplicable by science. If science fails to prove it, then it just means science is wrong, or that telepathy is somehow out of the bounds of scientific inquiry. The same goes for ghosts, demons, God, etc.

I'm certain we would find evidence of something...

I agree. My contention would be that it would minimize the manifestation of those false beliefs simply by being contrary data on a random number of occasions.

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I agree with everything you write. My problem is that there are an obscene number of qualified academics who aren't practicing - Sheldrake just happens to be one of them so I feel it necessary to go to task for the practice as I'm sure to make this argument over and over throughout my life.

What do you mean that he is not practicing? If he has collected data and conducted experiments according to the scientific method,and his results show well above chance on several occasions,wouldn`t you call that practice?


I'm not sure he's been collecting data or conducting experiments for a number of years.

Perhaps, we might consent an aspect of science as social practice? After all, if his hypotheses aren't being replicated, it could suggest be bad science... or simply being ostracized by the community.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2013, 01:22:21 pm »

Perhaps, we might consent an aspect of science as social practice? After all, if his hypotheses aren't being replicated, it could suggest be bad science... or simply being ostracized by the community.

I think this is an important factor that most people tend to overlook. Its expensive to do research, and if you're not doing something popular, you simply can't do your experiments. No one wants to be thought of as crazy, which is why fields of study can stagnate for years without progress because people are afraid to innovate. True innovation is always dangerous.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2013, 04:53:16 pm »
I think this is an important factor that most people tend to overlook. Its expensive to do research, and if you're not doing something popular, you simply can't do your experiments. No one wants to be thought of as crazy, which is why fields of study can stagnate for years without progress because people are afraid to innovate. True innovation is always dangerous.

Well, AFAIK there are people researching Psi. There was that recent controversy on precognition that IIRC came out of Cornell.

I don't think anyone replicated the results, though there seems to be some back and forth about that.

The only Psi research I've read about - and I'm willing to read anything on the subject - that really seems solid is Krippner's dream telepathy.

I recall hearing there are something like 4 really solid cases that strongly suggest reincarnation but I don't know what these actually are.

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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2013, 05:15:38 pm »
Quote
The only Psi research I've read about - and I'm willing to read anything on the subject - that really seems solid is Krippner's dream telepathy.

I suggest you listen to that audiolink i posted earlier,or maybe check out this book by Sheldrake.

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I'm not sure he's been collecting data or conducting experiments for a number of years

He certainly tries to state that he has done exactly that,but that is futile to argue about :),since either he is a fraud,or the implications of evidence of telepathy is a bit to much to swallow for materialists who have built up a body of work assuming telepathy is impossible.
Is it right to say that millions(maybe billions) of people who claim that they have had a paranormal experience are deluded? Can we prove that they are deluded,or are we just assuming they are?
I have personally never encountered anything paranormal,but to say that everyone who has is deluded,without proof,just doesn`t sound very scientific.

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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2013, 05:32:51 pm »
Is it right to say that millions(maybe billions) of people who claim that they have had a paranormal experience are deluded? Can we prove that they are deluded,or are we just assuming they are?
I have personally never encountered anything paranormal,but to say that everyone who has is deluded,without proof,just doesn`t sound very scientific.

First I'd like to just mention that the number of people isn't indicative of correctness. I will say though that something like 5% of top 'scientists", like nobel laureates, people extremely respected and at the top of their field, believe in a personal god. Not specifically one religion or the other, but a god that interacts with them. Until that  % is 0, I don't think its "scientifically" sound to dismiss the idea that things exist outside of known science.  Yes i know that God and psychics/paranormal activities are not entirely related, but my point remains the same. The absence of positive proof is not the same as disproof.

And to your second question: are they all deluded? I know one or two people very well that did not at all believe in any kind of paranormal anything until the encountered it on a personal basis. They don't claim to know exactly what happened or how it worked, but simply that it happened and it was real. to them. I don't believe that qualifies as delusion.

If believing in anything that isn't 100% supported by evidence based science makes you deluded.... well then 100% of everyone in all human history has been deluded. There would never be any kind of innovation in any field of study, and life as we know it would exist as is until it went extinct. The belief in somthing more is what drives the evolution of ideas.

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Royce

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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2013, 05:59:04 pm »
Of course numbers doesn`t indicate correctness,but if something as strange as this occurs on a regular basis among humans,shouldn`t we give it some serious attention at least?
Descartes was communicating with angels,and even the big bang theory states that everything sprang out of nothing in an instant.That is like saying that you can believe in one miracle,and everything that happens after that we can explain just fine.

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2013, 06:44:12 pm »
That is like saying that you can believe in one miracle,and everything that happens after that we can explain just fine.
I love this distinction. Eventually it comes down to faith, its just what one person believe over another. Very few things, if any, can be explained to its most minute detail, and at some point you just need to say "well its just that way because thats how it is". Not to say all theories on every subject are equally viable, but its something that should be remembered.

Of course numbers doesn`t indicate correctness,but if something as strange as this occurs on a regular basis among humans,shouldn`t we give it some serious attention at least?
I think that that should make it worth looking into.
 Also, I understand your point completely about quantity and why its important, I just can't stand it when people blindly throw numbers at something to prove a point (which is not at all what you did, my comment was mostly just for me  :P).


Completely unrelated: Royce I find it interesting that you don't add a space after any punctuation except for the apostrophe   :)
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