The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Warrior-Prophet => Topic started by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:45:22 pm

Title: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:45:22 pm
Quote from: Fëanor
What do you think about the trick of the heart? When Kellhus, almost dying, is cut free from the circumfix and reaches to his heart and shows it to the multitude, with haloed hands... (that too, what with those haloes?)

I didn´t find any answer in the subsequent books. Any of you know something, from another source maybe?

Conjectures, Nerdanels?

To me it would be very disappointing if they turn out to be "miracles". No miracles allowed in SF or fantasy (in good fantasy, I mean). I believe that Kellhus is indeed manipulating people with that idea, of being some God amongst men (or THE God), and that's the point of these tricks, plainfully... but we know better.

Do we?
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:45:30 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
I think the favored theory is that Kellhus reached into his chest, but his hand/arm went into the outside rather than into his chest, it then came back inward inside of Serwe's chest and grabbed her heart, then he withdrew his hand through the hole, looking all the world like he'd just pulled out his own heart.  He was able to do this through some outside soul shenanigans that I don't metaphysically much understand and it was enabled by Serwe's sacrifice/attachment/-soul-close-to-his-outside or some such. 

or it was just sleight of hand and he already had her heart secreted on his person and he just pulled off an illusion.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:45:37 pm
Quote from: Madness
I think it's interesting that you suggest miracles "aren't allowed" in SFF, Feanor.

I remember Bakker wrote on Three-Seas once that there was a scene cut between Cnaiur and Kellhus - he felt the ambiguity we wrestle with concerning Kellhus' Circumfixion and Serwa's Heart reflected the lack of this other scene.

But bar sleight of hand, I think lockesnow has the current consensus down, something I've only gotten on board with in the past two years. It's really only since WLW that I ever really considered the agency, effects, and metaphysics of the Outside in the Second Apocalypse.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:45:45 pm
Quote from: Fëanor
Hm, yeah, the Outside again. TAE comes heavy with that. I say I am 50/50 with each one (that, and the quick hand, haha).

The haloes? Baskerville trick?

About the "not allowed"... its a way of saying that Fantasy and SF are miracles themselves... so why curling the curl? If the autor subcreates a world/universe in which rules are different, nature is different, even Gods (I prefer books with no God intervention, though some deitys may be "allowed"... not Homer like (acting, fighting in the battlefield and conspiring with this or that party) but Tolkien (watching... and eventually breaking half the world)) anyway, I was saying, if they have this miraculous stage... they don't need miracles within. Forgive my english again, it's difficult to talk these stuff and make it understandable.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:45:56 pm
Quote from: Madness
You're doing fine, Feanor, don't worry about it. The beauty of communication... hell, I'd love to see any of us English speakers try this in Spanish ;).

I get the distinctions and, honestly, I feel like Bakker will author Gods & Miracles somewhere between Homer and Tolkien - he has said both are heavy precursors.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:46:08 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Gah, there was this bit - not sure where I read it, where Scott actually said he had a fair bit more for that passage, but it got cut. I wish I could find it for you...

Perhaps along with the halo's (that Serwe see's first), the heart is like that. It's possibly the very moment he goes mad (and we cease getting any POV writing from him).
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:46:13 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Is there such thing as a madman when everyone is insane? The sane become mad, and the mad sane. Perspective.

Anyway, I'd say Callan, that there is a possibility there, except that not everyone would have seen the heart if it was an 'illusion' similar to the halos that eventually everyone comes to see. At least not at this point when so many still didnt believe.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:46:20 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
The heart is a moment that is more than a bit like Leto II taking on the sandworm symbiosis, isn't it?

regarding miracles.  Bakker is playing with that expectation Feanor.  Fantasy is inherently a secondary world where the old understandings or laws-of-the-world (pre-science) hold sway.  We should see more miracles in fantasy worlds.  However it's an interesting paradox and contradiction that despite having an inherently magical world, these worlds tend to be portrayed with a realist/scientific bent that often disproves (to the non-diagetic reader) miracles.  Bakker is turning this comfortable genre convention on its head.  The convention where the reader is comforted by having a meaningful world (rather than the modern disenchanted/explained world science gives us) and is comforted because the world is explained and presumed to operate on the same principles that the reader's modern world operates on; if the world were full of meaningful miracles, gods, saints, demons and other supernatural agencies and events the reader would be constantly challenged by the unreality and would not be comfortable--indeed, there are many fans of this series who were FURIOUS when the implicit was made explicit in the Judging Eye: that the world was not backgrounded by the comfortable, known world of Earth they had assumed, rather the world was Other, and was the logical continuation of the fantasy Earwa backgrounded by the magical, supernatural and the unknown.

It's very unsettling and VERY purposeful.  Oh howl they did howl.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:46:28 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'm still howling ;).

Interesting thought that, lockesnow. If Wilshire's finally done Heretics, perhaps, its time for us to congregate in his PON vs. Dune thread.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:46:46 pm
Quote from: Fëanor
Yeah, lockesnow that's the point. One thing is what we call miracles from this world and its rules and science. Fantasy transcend those rules, so it's "miraculous", ok; but gives us some amount of explanations (not everything, mistery must be dosed), and it's not merely about being comfortable; it's a game in which the author can do almost everything, but deus ex machina or plainly unexplicable things tend to let us down, because it's like foul play. So, the miracles I don't want to see in this books are not the ones I mentioned (those in relation to our world, science), but those like when "something is this way" with no possible explanation, and I don't need that explanation right now... It's enough if we can conjecture different possibilities, but not "just because". Magic, for example. If Kellhus did magic and pulled his heart out... that's curling the curl, because we already are in a wolrd in which magic exists with certain rules (anagogic, pushke, daimotic, gnostic, inchoroi and quya stuff). The theory Madness produced about his hand entering the outside and reaching Serwë's heart for any reason, it's ok to me. Supervelocity hand, too. But I'm not ok if it's like "just because". I'm struggling with the language and don't seem to succeed...
EDIT: I don´t mean Madness's hand, but Kellhus's.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:46:50 pm
Quote from: Fëanor
Quote from: lockesnow
there are many fans of this series who were FURIOUS when the implicit was made explicit in the Judging Eye: that the world was not backgrounded by the comfortable, known world of Earth they had assumed, rather the world was Other, and was the logical continuation of the fantasy Earwa backgrounded by the magical, supernatural and the unknown.
This doesn't apply to me, I'm fine whit Earwa (or he world in which Earwa, Eanna and who knows what exists), and I'm ok with some deitys milling around in this subcreated world. But still would bother me a miracle "out of that universe", something anomalous that happens "just because". Like Tom Bombadil, haha.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:46:58 pm
Quote from: Madness
Credit to that one can't go to me, Feanor. Someone in the ethereal One-Thread Famine times at Westeros came up with that bit. I just have a memory for fiction ;).
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:47:10 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote
If Kellhus did magic and pulled his heart out... that's curling the curl, because we already are in a wolrd in which magic exists with certain rules (anagogic, pushke, daimotic, gnostic, inchoroi and quya stuff).

That reminds me of the bit where Cnaiur fights Kellhus on the steep and to Kellhus it seems as if Cnaiur hand passes through Kellhus's sword arm.

That's what pushke is - utter passion. Blind rage! Except the pushke is teachable - so even though it falls off the damnation radar for being passion based, it's still closer to it's intellectual brethren than a raw outburst of it is (if you'll take the Cnaiur example of being some kinda magic outburst).
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:47:17 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Fëanor
Quote from: lockesnow
there are many fans of this series who were FURIOUS when the implicit was made explicit in the Judging Eye: that the world was not backgrounded by the comfortable, known world of Earth they had assumed, rather the world was Other, and was the logical continuation of the fantasy Earwa backgrounded by the magical, supernatural and the unknown.
This doesn't apply to me, I'm fine whit Earwa (or he world in which Earwa, Eanna and who knows what exists), and I'm ok with some deitys milling around in this subcreated world. But still would bother me a miracle "out of that universe", something anomalous that happens "just because". Like Tom Bombadil, haha.

There's a couple problems with your position:

One: Earwa is explicitly an enchanted world, we live in an explicitly disenchanted world, you seem to want a disenchanted experience within an enchanted world, something the author has repeatedly said he is deliberately avoiding. 

Two: A 'just because' anomalous miracle is impossible in an enchanted world.  The very conception of "just because" is completely rooted in a modernist disenchanted perspective, if you regard anything miraculous in-world as happening 'just because' your disenchanted Earth perspective is blinding you to the fact that in-world there is always an explanation that the miraculous has motive and the miraculous is not a mis-interpreted coincidence.

To make this a bit clearer:  In our past the world was perceived to be inherently enchanted, before science disenchanted the world, in a culture like ancient Greece, if someone was struck by lightning it was because Zeus was angry with them and they probably deserved it; in our disenchanted world if someone was struck by lightning it was just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time it has nothing to do with the victims misdeeds or lack of good deeds it has nothing to do with dieties, it's just because of a scientific fact of how lightning happens, there's no motive behind the lightning.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:47:26 pm
Quote from: Fëanor
Argh, I know the translation is killing me! Is the third time I try to explain mi position and I read you and I agree but I cannot make myself clear.

Your "One": I don't want a disenchanted expirience within an enchanted world! I just want this enchanted world to be consistent itself, in a way of saying -I'm not "scientificist" (there is such a word in spanish; can't find it in english, though; it's not "scientist", it's "someone who thinks scientific methods must extend to all realms of intellectual and moral life, without exception")-; I'm just talking about that "intellectual challenge" Bakker talks about regarding fantasy readers; IOW, I want all wonder imaginable, yes (prefer not deitys, but can be), but don't want the author introducing anomalys "just because", which leads to...

"Two": So we all agree, no "just because" events in enchanted world. That's what I am talking about. That's why I asked about conjectures to explain the heart trick. And now I notice that there was no need to specify (EDIT, "express", not "specify") my fear, 'cause you agree (your "Two" says exactly what I think).

I mean... obviously I understand all that stuff with the lighting and the greeks trying to find out meaning... Sorry if make you explain that.

EDIT AGAIN: And so my mistake was calling those anomalys "miracles". Maybe that is so because, to me, the word "miracle" inevitably evoke discussions with religious people who pray and actually expect miracles to happen (in our very world, yes). Sorry.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 02:47:33 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
You want causality. Something happened because something happened prior, to bring it about.

Generally I'm okay with a 'just because' when the author latter brings in reasons why it happened. Even if in the writing process he had something happen, then made up why it happened afterward while he was writing.

Otherwise I get it - when something seems to 'just happen', it spoils things, it undermines the solidness of the fictional world.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: mrganondorf on February 18, 2014, 05:50:56 pm
I can't get it out of my head that the whole event could be psukhe.  Psukhe could get Kellhus to pull out his own heart (and crack the floor with beads of blood--doesn't that happen?), psukhe could send dreams into Kellhus mind to convince him he's got a special connection to Mog, psukhe could convey thoughts to Cnaiur 'as if' Kellhus was talking to him while K is hanging upside down, and psukhe could cause a starved holy war to beat a massively greater host.

We know the cish are there, and they don't seem to help out much during the battle!  I'm thinking it's all a lie about Moe having no water, or it simply doesn't matter--he dominates them that does.

Bonus points?  Psukhe could arrange for Kellhus to be saved at the right moment by the trapper and on the hill of sranc by Cnaiur.  Such close brushes with death make me think they were setups!  More dunyain level propaganda to bend one of their own into a tool.  Psukhe could make halooooesss, I think (but why the hell would cish put haloes on the skin spy that rapes serwe?).
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2014, 11:18:31 pm
Well we know that Moenghus knew Kellhus would be hanging from that tree, or thereabout. It is possible that he sent him dreams, so I'll give you that.

As for halos, lies that are preferable to the truth are more readily believed.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Madness on February 27, 2014, 12:55:16 pm
Wow, Wilshire.

Simple and elegant.

The tree in the "No-God" dream sequence is the tree above the Kyudean Mansion. The figure bent like a monk is Moenghus. Kellhus was supposed to realize that Moenghus would test his Dunyainity before meeting with him.

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Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on February 27, 2014, 07:15:30 pm
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noooooooooooooo


Wow, Wilshire.

Simple and elegant.
;)
The tree in the "No-God" dream sequence is the tree above the Kyudean Mansion. The figure bent like a monk is Moenghus. Kellhus was supposed to realize that Moenghus would test his Dunyainity before meeting with him.

Great now I have to go back and read it to see if its possible. We've got a thread around here somewhere.....
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: mrganondorf on April 29, 2014, 10:10:39 pm
Revisiting the Circumfix and thinking about the whole thing being orchestrated by the psukhe, that would fit would 1) that the Cishaurim are there (Akka and Xin saw them), 2) there's no evidence that the Cishaurim helped the Kianene forces in the battle at the end of TWP, and 3) the impossibility of a smaller, weaker force defeating the Kianene no matter what kind of conviction they have--the Cish helped crush the Padirajah.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 02:08:57 am
Hmmm but the human spirit conquers all! Love trumps everything! ...

You're right, that does seem like a bit of optimism, which makes it out of place. Dunno if its the Psuke, but perhaps they did have some unseen help. Remember the Consult feared the Cish as well.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: mrganondorf on May 08, 2014, 07:20:13 pm
Hmmm but the human spirit conquers all! Love trumps everything! ...

You're right, that does seem like a bit of optimism, which makes it out of place. Dunno if its the Psuke, but perhaps they did have some unseen help. Remember the Consult feared the Cish as well.

I feel stupid for admitting it, but that never occurred to me!  Now you got me thinking of all the ways the Consult could have helped.  Aurang, being the Battle Master of Abominations has a last ditch contingency in place for just such an unlikely scenario.  It includes:

- Extra infusion of skin spies to help the Holy War.
- Extra infusion of skin spies to sabotage the Fanim.
- All skin spies fighting for the Holy War are super fit for fighting, having secretly cannibalizing others to keep up their strength and just being hardier in general.
- Some possible fringe use of sorcery.  It would have to be done just right so as not to stick out too much from the SS magic during the melee.  Maybe some selective use of glamors?  Making a rushing mob of Inrithi seem like they are 50 yards away when they are really 10 would be very effective.  The person who would most likely notice it, Kellhus, wouldn't necessarily be inclined to say anything.
- Other secret Consult methods employed of which we won't learn about until TUC.  They'll be used against the Great Ordeal!

- Plus a couple of bashrags in blonde wigs that are just referred to as "Yalgrotta's cousins"

The victory at Caraskand seems so unlikely to me, I think it's got to be Cishaurim or Consult or gods.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 04:20:27 am
The victory at Caraskand seems unlikely. Unlikely...but not impossible. Battles have been won in similar situation in real life. What is said here:

Hmmm but the human spirit conquers all!
Is true, to an extent. In battle, an iron age set piece battle especially, will to fight is arguably the most important thing there is. Like Caesar's final battle with Pompey, when by all rights he should have lost, he prevailed. It was all down to a bit of luck AND the fact that Caesar's men must win or die. Pompey's men had other options. The same is true a Caraskand. Every man of the Holy war knew that he must triumph on the field or die that very day. The Fanim on the other hand, had the option of fleeing if things started to go bad. Sun Tzu has a quote about it that I can't entirely remember that goes something along the lines of "If you want to learn how hard men can fight, leave them no avenue of retreat."

Also never underestimate the power of shock. The human mind can take tremendous abuse if it is prepared for it. Surprises though? Surprises sap your morale with alarming alacrity.  A soldier that's been in a dozen battles can develop PTSD from a single ambush.

The Fanim expected an easy victory against a starved and despairing rabble. When they fought screaming fanatics with iron wills instead, they were left shocked and disoriented. Much easier to rout.

These two things combined, the desperation and superior morale of the Men of the Tusk, and the lesser will to fight and surprise employed against the Fanim, led to the Padirajah's host being routed.

noooooooooooooo
Why does this dismay you so? Kellhus is a monster. He deserves to be broken. The only reason he's even a protagonist is because the antagonists are even more monstrous.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: SilentRoamer on September 03, 2014, 08:03:55 pm
Why does this dismay you so? Kellhus is a monster. He deserves to be broken. The only reason he's even a protagonist is because the antagonists are even more monstrous.

Kellhus is more! He bore the Circumfix for all Men and performed a miracle. Don't be a hater.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on September 04, 2014, 03:56:44 pm
Good points about the fight. They were still fighting human enemies at that point. Maybe a bit different if it were sranc legions. Win or die is a difficult enemy to beat.
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--
Not dismay so much as disbelief.
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Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 04, 2014, 04:06:16 pm
The Sranc aren't an army. They're a swarm. Not the same thing at all. The rules of morale are different with them. As seen when White Luck Warrior Spoilers
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Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 07, 2014, 07:25:07 pm
As for halos, lies that are preferable to the truth are more readily believed.
I'm re-reading this and during the battle of Anwurat, when a Skin-Spy wearing Kellhus' face is plying Serwe, she sees halos on its hands too.

Apparently all you have to do to see halos is believe really hard, because I'm pretty sure that Skin-Spy wasn't a prophet.

EDIT: And I see someone brought this up up-thread and I missed it. Oops.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: locke on September 07, 2014, 08:06:49 pm
Yeah those halos are one of the most talked about scenes of the series.  But how do we know that data point was a rule and not an exception?

One data point is one data point.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 07, 2014, 08:37:29 pm
The fact that it's an exception is the important thing. It proves that the halos are not necessarily something inherent to Kellhus himself, because someone else was perceived to have them.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Triskele on September 07, 2014, 09:09:14 pm
I think that I read somewhere that Caraskand was loosely based off of the Battle of Antioch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Antioch



Quote
On Monday, 28 June, the crusaders emerged from the city gate,[33] with Raymond of Aguilers carrying the Holy Lance before them. Kerbogha hesitated against his generals' pleadings, hoping to attack them all at once rather than one division at a time, but he underestimated their size. He pretended to retreat to draw the crusaders to rougher terrain, while his archers continuously pelted the advancing crusaders with arrows. A detachment was dispatched to the crusader left wing, which was not protected by the river, but Bohemond quickly formed a seventh division and beat them back. The Turks were inflicting many casualties, including Adhemar's standard-bearer, and Kerbogha set fire to the grass between his position and the crusaders, but this did not deter them: they had visions of three saints riding along with them: St. George, St. Demetrius, and St. Maurice. The battle was brief and disastrous for the Turks. Duqaq deserted Kerbogha and this desertion reduced the great numerical advantage the Muslim army had over its Christian opponents. Soon the defeated Muslim troops were in panicked retreat.

Title: Re: The heart
Post by: locke on September 07, 2014, 09:19:27 pm
The fact that it's an exception is the important thing. It proves that the halos are not necessarily something inherent to Kellhus himself, because someone else was perceived to have them.
No it says serwe sees what she already expects to see.  It doesnt disprove anything about what shes seen on kellhus.  How much color do you literally see in your peripheral vision and how much color does your brain edit into what you are seeing because that's what you expect your eyes to show you?

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 12:58:29 am
When someone that doesn't believe Kellhus is divine sees him possessing halos, then I'll believe there's something special about him producing them, instead of the effect originating with the observer.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: locke on September 08, 2014, 06:11:11 am
Why isolate it to the watcher when there's a significant textual indicator that the to-be-looked-at-ness is just as important as the looking.

I think i had a post once that delved into the question of how skin spies would have to have some metaphysical component as well, obviously the mandate skin spy would have to appear to have the mark to all his fellow sorcerers to pull off the illudion.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 02:22:24 pm
Why isolate it to the watcher when there's a significant textual indicator that the to-be-looked-at-ness is just as important as the looking.
Explain further?

I think i had a post once that delved into the question of how skin spies would have to have some metaphysical component as well, obviously the mandate skin spy would have to appear to have the mark to all his fellow sorcerers to pull off the illudion.
We can't extrapolate much from the Mandate skin-spy metaphysically compared to the others given that he had a soul.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wic on September 08, 2014, 07:23:22 pm
There are a few quotes throughout the series that indicate the value of 'witnessing', much of it in Kell's lectures (which are prone to be lies used for manipulation, but the Dunyain know how easily you can manipulate with the truth instead), and the importance of the Judging Eye lends credence to that. 

Perhaps the fact that the God (or any god) can only judge by holding witness lends credence to that.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: locke on September 08, 2014, 08:18:47 pm
Circuit of watcher and watched that underwrites all of existence.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 08:30:55 pm
I'm still not sure what that means.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: locke on September 08, 2014, 08:43:42 pm
Well you're dismissing the entire principle of watcher/watched in the effort to discredit serwe based on the skin spy datum. When one is watched one has a metaphysical connection to the one watching. 

It's very likely serwe is right about kellhus and kellhus is wrong about himself especially because kellhus never considers the possibility.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 09:00:06 pm
No I mean what is "the principle of watcher/watched"? I don't get it.

When one is watched one has a metaphysical connection to the one watching. 
What kind of connection? What does that have to do with the halos? And how do we know this is true in the first place?

And if this is as true of the skin-spy as it is of Kellhus then it doesn't really mean anything special about Kellhus.


It's very likely serwe is right about kellhus and kellhus is wrong about himself especially because kellhus never considers the possibility.
Do you mean right in thinking him divine? Kellhus does think that, eventually.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: locke on September 08, 2014, 10:07:55 pm
Yeah but it might not be true anymore when he thinks it

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 10:32:02 pm
So wait you're saying that you think Kellhus was only divine when he was a Dunyain playing a False Prophet so as to move the world to his own ends, and as soon as he became a self professed prophet in truth he actually lost divine status and just became another deluded world born man?

Funky.

I mean I'm not sure I believe any of it, but interesting concept.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: locke on September 08, 2014, 10:47:06 pm
Why not?  Divine favor may be fickle, and kellhus may have only been favored by the gods so long as he was a conduit by which to right the wrongs done to serwe.  Once she was redeemed they probably lost interest in him.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 10:52:45 pm
SPOILERS
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Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2014, 02:43:21 pm
The circle was watcher/watched is something I've never fully understood either.

The scene with the spy and the haloes indicated just what The Sharmat said, that belief is enough to effect 'objective' reality. It shows this rule, but I'm sure others can read more or less into it if they wish.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 06:33:40 pm
@ The Sharmat -

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Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on February 02, 2015, 07:48:11 am
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Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on February 05, 2015, 02:46:34 am
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Worth noting that hers is silver, his are gold.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on February 05, 2015, 05:01:07 am
Women are inherently less holy than men.

Or so she's been taught.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: SilentRoamer on February 05, 2015, 01:18:54 pm
I also think it interesting that Kellhus was not the one to see his own halos first. Mimara on the other hand...

Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on February 05, 2015, 03:11:06 pm
There is a substantial and important difference between their halos. Hopefully this is made clear in TUC.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on February 06, 2015, 04:37:04 am
I also think it interesting that Kellhus was not the one to see his own halos first. Mimara on the other hand...


Kellhus sees his own when he begins seeing himself as holy.

Mimara sees hers, but she really doesn't want to see hers because she hates it when good things happen to her.

Who's being more objective here?
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on February 06, 2015, 01:48:31 pm
You could construe that as a kind of masochism kind of - she prefer to be miserable, and thus sees things that make her miserable.

Or, TJE could be our only 'objective' viewpoint into the world of Earwa...
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: mrganondorf on February 06, 2015, 03:42:19 pm
Women are inherently less holy than men.

Or so she's been taught.

yeah, i guess the color scheme could put either one, both, or neither on top.  green haloes anyone?
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on February 06, 2015, 05:34:05 pm
You could construe that as a kind of masochism kind of - she prefer to be miserable, and thus sees things that make her miserable.

Or, TJE could be our only 'objective' viewpoint into the world of Earwa...
I think that's the point.

But consider that those two things may not be mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on February 06, 2015, 06:51:00 pm
What? Some all-power likes to make Mimara miserable because that's what she wants?
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on February 06, 2015, 06:53:38 pm
I've seen it postulated (and I could believe, though of course I'm unsure) that the possessor of the Judging Eye is the Judge. That their subjective perceptions set the objective standards by which the Outside judges damnation.

So woe to the world that the current possessor of the Judging Eye believes the Universe is an arbitrary, cruel, and fundamentally unfair place.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on February 10, 2015, 01:59:45 pm
Oh ok that makes more sense. I wasn't sure where you were going. An interesting thought, but hard to speculate further.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: The Sharmat on February 10, 2015, 03:49:25 pm
It so far would seem to depend on how literally you take that segment where she forgives Galian for raping her.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: Wilshire on February 10, 2015, 06:21:18 pm
And/or could be similar to how it is suggested that the Psukhe is 'indistinguishable from Gods own work" (not a direct quote).

Mim's forgiveness might have been guided by some greater power, etc etc.
Title: Re: The heart
Post by: mrganondorf on February 11, 2015, 05:29:25 am
I've seen it postulated (and I could believe, though of course I'm unsure) that the possessor of the Judging Eye is the Judge. That their subjective perceptions set the objective standards by which the Outside judges damnation.

So woe to the world that the current possessor of the Judging Eye believes the Universe is an arbitrary, cruel, and fundamentally unfair place.

would this make the Judging Eye a hiccup in the universe?  it is given by none, but it can rewrite reality?  i'm willing to go along with it and it might bring us back to the ways Kellhus may have conditioned Mimara without her knowing it (and without him being around) if he knew that he could change reality via her judgment on it