I honestly think that this was Kellhus sacrificing the army of the South. In my head at this point kellhus has already made contact with the consult and has sacrificedone this army to prove his loyalty.  It was like the scranc knew what's the menstatus plan was and in their own way slowly surrounded the men. It was pretty much the same plan the humans were using to kill smaller clans. And the thousands of bash rag hidden in the hoard was planned out  months and months ago and they've just been hiding.

And kellhus being kellhus used this opportunity to trick the mandate into not truthing their own dreams about Thierry life long enemy.

I feel like a kid skin spy has already been in the series. To me that's a the connection between the missing children and the fact that Simas had to be planted as a child in the mandate.

And is there no love for Lord Kosoter?

Akka seems to be jumping back and forth between to "channels" of dreams. The first being dreams that lead to Ishaul and the second are dreams thru the eyes of Nau-Cayûti.
 Which makes me think more then one person is sending Akka dreams. one person being Seswatha who is leading Akka to Ishual but someone else is showing him the last moments and maybe the "No-God-a-facation" of Nau-Cayûti. Who then went on a rampage destroying Sauglish, looking for Seswatha. 

Quote from: Wilshire on April 07, 2016, 02:22:05 pm

Quote from: locke on April 06, 2016, 07:50:15 pm

The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.

I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.

Quote from: Blackstone on April 06, 2016, 08:05:39 pm

Quote from: locke on April 06, 2016, 07:50:15 pm

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.

Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation,  seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.

I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.

The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.

I think sight is blindness,  because sight enforces self-deception.

Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before. 

In other words blindness comes before.

The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.

Dunyain and blindness, my mind jumps to a couple parts in the books, most of which you have all covered. But the part when The Holy War first enters Caraskand and Kellhus is being chased by the group of skin-spies. In the darkness of that house Kellhus gain an advantage over the Skin-spies in the dark. As if he was trained to fight in pitch black darkness.
And maybe the "trail in the wildness" Kellhus goes thru at the beginning of the series was to learn that witnessing the world, that blindness is truer then vision in Earwa, but Kellhus failed. 

Quote from: Somnambulist on March 31, 2016, 12:11:04 pm

That always seemed strange to me, though.  The Mandate always dream that they are Seswatha, reliving his experiences.  Akka knows this as well as anyone.  Yet he's asking where Seswatha is.  It seems he's perceiving the dream from a different perspective than is usual, and he can't see where Seswatha should be.  It also states that he's an insubstantial witness, whereas 'normally' they experience the dreams like they were really there, not just as an observer.  Strange.

I wonder if it is as simple as a foreshadowing of what will be at Sauglish when Akka gets there?  No Seswatha, just a dragon?

I doubt it's that though.

I think its from Nau-Cayûti's POV. If Nau-Cayûti is the No-God then this makes sense, looking for Ses because he betrayed him.

Quote

On another note, when Akka has the dream in Cil-Aujus where he asks where Seswatha is, makes me think that maybe Kellhus is indeed sending those dreams. It goes against everything I believe about Seswatha, but it really stuck out.

Quote from: geoffrobro on March 26, 2016, 12:50:50 pm

In chapter 14 while taking their first rest in Cil-Aujus, Akka has a dream that Sauglish is destroyed beneath him. It's towers were squat! He dreams of seeing gnostic magic across the sky. Then jump to a dragons POV in flight looking at the whirlwind feeling the rumble of the No-god then jumps to a POV that claims to be unseen, a insubstantial witness, alone. Looking for seswatha! Then it ends.

AKKA DREAM HE'S THE NO-GOD AT THE DESTRUCTION OF SAUGLISH!


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at the end of chapter 13 in the middle of Porsparians "spit spell" Sorweel recalls a moment when he burn his slave by accident with a "tear" (im guessing he means a chorae).

But something,some religious witness perhaps, held him back. He remembered the incident with the tear, When Porsparian had burned his palm, and a hollowing anxiousness seized him. He felt lika a thing of paper, creased and rolled and folded into the shape of a man. Any gust, it seemed, could make a kite of him, toss him to the arches of heaven. What new madness was this?

So Porsparian is some type of sorcerer maybe with a mark and is the shell of a man pretty much. 

Out there thought, Kellhus knows whats happening to Sorweel and allowing the "Yatwer success building process" happen to Sorweel so he can.... I have no idea.