[Triskele]

I think I was mean to nerdanel and regret it. At the time I found her theories hopelessly intricate, now I've become conditioned to generate them on my own. complexity breeds complexity.

Would you go so far as to say that she showed you that the Steppe was trackless?   

[themerchant]

my favorite quote of her's on ZTS went something like, "it really sucks to have a completely self contained and textual reinforced theory completely destroyed by something the author says outside the books.

I loved her theory that Kellhus goes back in time and the 3rd trilogy is called The first Apocalypse. Hence the secrecy about it's name. It could explain the changing dreams of Akka

Now it seems there might not even be a third trilogy, which makes all the hours speculating its' name moot now. Since RSB says TUC finishes his original story.

Why was there so much speculation about the name of the third triology when there is no need for one to finish the original story?

[Duskweaver]

The big problem, for me, in determining the actual capabilities of the Dunyain in general and Kellhus in particular is that I'm pretty sure Bakker goes out of his way to "claim [Kellhus] to be less than what he seemed to be," and so "move men, even learned men such as [us], to hope or fear that he might be more." (TDTCB Ch. 17)

[Madness]

my favorite quote of her's on ZTS went something like, "it really sucks to have a completely self contained and textual reinforced theory completely destroyed by something the author says outside the books.

I loved her theory that Kellhus goes back in time and the 3rd trilogy is called The first Apocalypse. Hence the secrecy about it's name. It could explain the changing dreams of Akka

Now it seems there might not even be a third trilogy, which makes all the hours speculating its' name moot now. Since RSB says TUC finishes his original story.

Why was there so much speculation about the name of the third triology when there is no need for one to finish the original story?

Nerdanel said that first! Gall. I've been pushing someone else's conception with my own... nerdanels!

themerchant, I definitely think that the comment he made that inspired this "finished story" kind of thought process in fans rather suggested that he had an original teenage spark and he's finishing that with TUC. However, it seems very much like the idea grew beyond that in intervening years. TSTSNBN is definitely still coming and satisfies what Bakker seems to think is an intractable (neh, impossible) problem. My personal guess is that the 'seed idea' was some kind of moral problem within dogmatic religious constraints that Bakker couldn't see himself around then. Probably, following that at some point, he decided he had learned enough to attempt solving (or validating) the issue he thinks he's highlighting?

But pure and rampant speculation based on absolutely no real information. So grain of salt.

[Wilshire]

TSTSNBN will come out. Have faith!

However, it seems very much like the idea grew beyond that in intervening years. TSTSNBN is definitely still coming and satisfies what Bakker seems to think is an intractable (neh, impossible) problem. My personal guess is that the 'seed idea' was some kind of moral problem within dogmatic religious constraints that Bakker couldn't see himself around then.

Sounds to me like Bakker couldn't see past the circumfixtion

[themerchant]

my favorite quote of her's on ZTS went something like, "it really sucks to have a completely self contained and textual reinforced theory completely destroyed by something the author says outside the books.

I loved her theory that Kellhus goes back in time and the 3rd trilogy is called The first Apocalypse. Hence the secrecy about it's name. It could explain the changing dreams of Akka

Now it seems there might not even be a third trilogy, which makes all the hours speculating its' name moot now. Since RSB says TUC finishes his original story.

Why was there so much speculation about the name of the third triology when there is no need for one to finish the original story?

Nerdanel said that first! Gall. I've been pushing someone else's conception with my own... nerdanels!

themerchant, I definitely think that the comment he made that inspired this "finished story" kind of thought process in fans rather suggested that he had an original teenage spark and he's finishing that with TUC. However, it seems very much like the idea grew beyond that in intervening years. TSTSNBN is definitely still coming and satisfies what Bakker seems to think is an intractable (neh, impossible) problem. My personal guess is that the 'seed idea' was some kind of moral problem within dogmatic religious constraints that Bakker couldn't see himself around then. Probably, following that at some point, he decided he had learned enough to attempt solving (or validating) the issue he thinks he's highlighting?

But pure and rampant speculation based on absolutely no real information. So grain of salt.

Well, i think i first read it on westeros from her. My memory is not perfect and it could have been you or perhaps someone else. I loved the theory though.

I also think the gods see everything like from the inside of a black hole, where because of time dilation due to gravity, if one looked back they could see all of history as it crossed the event horizon, and see it at once without any real context of time. It would all just be there. When you look at it you'll see all time but it wont be distinguished by time intervals, so you just see everything, which would make it hard to distinguish when happened what, well i think it would, never actually been inside a black-hole.

With regards to Dunyain weakness. I can't think of any really. I'll keep an eye out as i always take a Bakker book to read on the bus or train.

thanks for the info about the other series, always feels good to know have more Bakker books coming.

[Cüréthañ]

Nice analogy, themerchant. 

Extending: The hundred are also confined somewhat to their own dimensions (i.e. some division of the outside).  Meaning they can't see everything,  mainly the reflections that are somehow abutted to their own 'portfolio' of meaning.

So they perceive events from outside of time with variations in clarity.  The 'holier' an event/soul is to them the clearer they can see it.
The ability to influence causality is likely restricted to events that resonate with the meanings in which their power is invested.

Kind of the opposite to how dunyain must approach manipulating causality.

[themerchant]

Yeah cause you'd see all of history in one big clump, if you don't normally exist in linear time it would be hard to understand how things progress on after another in this reality. Perhaps being marked in some way allows ciphrang or gods pick you out of the jumble. Perhaps the event horizon is the gateway between this world and  the outside. They can peer through into linear time via someone connected to the outside like their cult then effect change. Perhaps they can see every iterartion of reality as well, a bit like the Many universe theory.

You could also pick out the path for the whiteluck warrior with that sort of information. A case of what comes after determines what comes before, as they reverse engineer the steps needed for the white luck warrior sword to break.

I don't know really. A lot of the time i feel on the edge of my abilities trying to understand all this.

[Madness]

Yeah cause you'd see all of history in one big clump, if you don't normally exist in linear time it would be hard to understand how things progress on after another in this reality. Perhaps being marked in some way allows ciphrang or gods pick you out of the jumble. Perhaps the event horizon is the gateway between this world and  the outside. They can peer through into linear time via someone connected to the outside like their cult then effect change. Perhaps they can see every iterartion of reality as well, a bit like the Many universe theory.

You could also pick out the path for the whiteluck warrior with that sort of information. A case of what comes after determines what comes before, as they reverse engineer the steps needed for the white luck warrior sword to break.

I don't know really. A lot of the time i feel on the edge of my abilities trying to understand all this.

+1. Your corroboration what's always been my perspective. The gods have some perceptual biases and blindspots (possibly being limited to appendages of faith or sorcery, as describe) but definitely reside at some point that has the ability to look back on what actually happened from the... I dunno, "end of time?" or the "restaurant at the end of the universe."

[Cüréthañ]

Yeah.  Note the WLW's perspective is marked by instances where he encounters Yatwer's adherents or incidences which align with Yatwer's divine portfolio.
I think these are points where Yatwer can see and influence causality most effectively.

[themerchant]

or maybe they only see through when one is sleeping/dreaming. Non-souled Beings do not "dream" therefore don't project into the outside rendering the gods blind to them. I'm sure i read the cants of calling only work when sleeping because you are closer to the outside. unless you're Moe of course with his face-time Cish app.  Ses found some way to modify a cant of calling so it transmitted certain images of the past when you're connected to the outside by sleeping/dreaming. Also dreaming you're "blind" and seeing without the use of your eyes, but your "third eye" (or minds eye). 

Anyway,  speculating about the wrong thing if one takes the title of the thread for guidance, apologies for taking it off on a tangent.   

[Madness]

Lol, tangents are flavour, themerchant . Though, you'd probably enjoy the Sorcery thread.

[mrganondorf]

I gotta bring up that scene in TWP where the skin spies chase Kellhus into a dark room.  One of them yells "smell him" and Kellhus casts his cloak on a chair and then kills all but one.  For me, this episode highlights what could be all kinds of dunyain weakness: how well can they see? how well can the smell and hear?  Kellhus might have been truly fucked if the skin spy had not yelled in a language Kellhus understood.

I don't mean to suggest that Bakker's going to off Kellhus by exposing him to gas that human nostrils don't detect, just that I think this will be a big part of the end of TUC.  I figure we'll see a succession of surprises and revelations that those surprises were anticipated until kellhus/moenghus/other dunyain are blindsided by something.

I don't go over to 3lbbrain a lot, but I thought Bakker was in love with the idea of mental blindspots.

[oneeyed]

Well it's obvious the Dunyain have weaknesses, they are still humans.

From the start Khellus has been proven wrong and made mistakes. Do you remember Leweth the trapper with his dogs ? How Khellus described him as lost in his superstitions, seeing the mystic everywhere ? How pathetic the guy seemed....

For Leweth, Kellhus knew, the world was fraught with gods, ghosts, even demons. It was steeped in their conspiracies, crowded with omens and portents of their capricious humours. Like a second horizon, their designs encompassed the struggles of men—shrouded, cruel, and in the end, always fatal.

And now after Khellus has travelled the world and lived outside the Dunyain's refuge, he has accepted a lot of what he thought was myths and superstitions, he's become much like what he despised in the 1st world born he met. Let's face it if there is one glaring weakness in Khellus and probably the Dunyain as a whole, it is arrogance... Being smarter doesn't mean being wiser or more knowledgeable.

One thing that surprises me is how the Dunyain are described as a sect seeking enlightment, and exiling themselves willingly from the world. But then there's the whole training about face reading... For me that's a tool for manipulation and control, I can't accept that's it's needed for suppressing your own emotions. So the Dunyain may have exiled themselves but they are definitely not above world matters.

[Wilshire]

May I direct you to this post, oneeyed: http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1164.0 . Kellhus was one lucky SOB at the start of his journey. Dunyain get overwhelmed by the influx of new data. As many war games have shown, too much data is not always good and can actually cause more problems.

Dunyain fallibility is easy to miss in the first read if you don't pay attention. For the most part I think I found myself trapped by Kellhus just like the citizens of Earwa. However, once you think about it and go deeper, flaws become apparent.

btw, oneeyed, you read any forgotten realms stuff? Your username reminds me of Gruumsh.