What would a Dunyain think of money?

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Callan S.

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« on: December 01, 2013, 11:16:09 pm »
I was reading this
Quote
The central benefit of money is its predictable purchasing power. A monetary commodity is not easy to produce. The cost of mining is high. Money is slowly adopted by a large number of participants. These participants use money as a means of exchange. Why? Because it was valuable the day before. They therefore expect it to be valuable the next day. Money has continuity of value. This is not intrinsic value. It is historic value. So, a person can buy money by the sale of goods or services, set this money aside, and re-enter the markets in a different location or in a different time, in the confidence that he will probably be able to buy a similar quantity of goods and services.
And I was thinking that a Dunyain is less or not inclined to be taken in by the illusion of expectation. To them the objects we use as money would be a node in a web of causations they might cause in world born. Never mind how the above text mentions history, and the Dunyain are a people without history.

Further, sure, we can think about money as just an arbitrary object - but here's the social inertia, the social current that sweep us back in. ARE we going to treat the money object that way? Or are we going to treat it that everyone else is going to treat those objects as being a worthy exchange for their goods, and so we let ourselves get swept back into that fervour and start treating those money objects as a worthy exchange for our labour? Wait, no, we don't think of them as a worthy exchange for our labour - instead we let ourselves get swept back into the current of believing the money objects we currently hold ARE worth someone else trading their goods for our money objects.

Basically a religious fervor.

I think it's interesting to be able to see oneself being swept into that. Anyone else get that when they pause and consider the money in their wallet as just a papery or plasticy object? As much as that candy wrapper being blown along in the wind down the street is a papery or plasticy object? But then the feeling of being swept back in...?

The Great Scald

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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2013, 05:02:21 am »
Well, yeah, you said it. Social inertia and all that. I realize that money in itself is worthless, but since everyone else agrees that it has a value, I'm not about to flush my wallet down the toilet.

I guess the hyper-rational Dunyain would treat money the same way - they'd realize money doesn't have any value beyond what worldborn people assign to it, but they'd use money in order to manipulate worldborn people just as they use kindness without actually feeling it themselves.

Madness

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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2013, 03:14:15 pm »
Well, yeah, you said it. Social inertia and all that. I realize that money in itself is worthless, but since everyone else agrees that it has a value, I'm not about to flush my wallet down the toilet.

I guess the hyper-rational Dunyain would treat money the same way - they'd realize money doesn't have any value beyond what worldborn people assign to it, but they'd use money in order to manipulate worldborn people just as they use kindness without actually feeling it themselves.

+1.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2013, 04:10:29 pm »
You don't have the feeling of being washed back in?

Wielokropek

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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2013, 04:39:29 pm »
Quote from: TTT,p.253-4
     "Men are simple," he replied. "They think primarily in terms of things, not relations. This is why they think it's the gold or silver that makes coins valuable, not the obedience they command. Tell them the Nilnameshi use pottery for their coins and they scoff."
     "Or, "Esmenet said, "that the Warrior-Prophet uses a woman."

...

     "Exactly," Kellhus said. "They ask, 'Where's the gold?'" He grinned at her sidelong. "Or in your case ..."
     "'Where's the thumb?'" Esmenet said ruefully.
     Thumb. Sumni slang for "phallus." Why did it pain him so, listening to her speak in the old way?
     Kellhus grinned. "They can't see that gold is only relevant insofar as it plays a role within our expectations–insofar as we make it relevant ..." He paused, his eyes sparkling with mirth. "The same," he continued, "might be said of thumbs."

Yeah, it looks like Auriga's got it right. A coin has the same value to a Dunyain as a dick.

Royce

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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2013, 05:38:27 pm »
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You don't have the feeling of being washed back in?

Well, yes. I think it is called conditioning. We are so used to money, so when that feeling occurs, we do not take it seriously. If you do take it seriously, and burn your cash in a moment of blissful "understanding" that it is worthless paper, you will most likely regret it 20 seconds later.

Quote
Yeah, it looks like Auriga's got it right. A coin has the same value to a Dunyain as a dick.

Haha, nice one :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 05:40:27 pm by Royce »

Madness

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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 05:24:55 pm »
Quote from: TTT,p.253-4
     "Men are simple," he replied. "They think primarily in terms of things, not relations. This is why they think it's the gold or silver that makes coins valuable, not the obedience they command. Tell them the Nilnameshi use pottery for their coins and they scoff."
     "Or, "Esmenet said, "that the Warrior-Prophet uses a woman."

...

     "Exactly," Kellhus said. "They ask, 'Where's the gold?'" He grinned at her sidelong. "Or in your case ..."
     "'Where's the thumb?'" Esmenet said ruefully.
     Thumb. Sumni slang for "phallus." Why did it pain him so, listening to her speak in the old way?
     Kellhus grinned. "They can't see that gold is only relevant insofar as it plays a role within our expectations–insofar as we make it relevant ..." He paused, his eyes sparkling with mirth. "The same," he continued, "might be said of thumbs."

Yeah, it looks like Auriga's got it right. A coin has the same value to a Dunyain as a dick.

Comedy gold. +1 for logic, as well.

Quote
You don't have the feeling of being washed back in?

Well, yes. I think it is called conditioning. We are so used to money, so when that feeling occurs, we do not take it seriously. If you do take it seriously, and burn your cash in a moment of blissful "understanding" that it is worthless paper, you will most likely regret it 20 seconds later.


Kerouac, Royce :).
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Callan S.

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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 11:30:19 pm »
Quote
You don't have the feeling of being washed back in?

Well, yes. I think it is called conditioning. We are so used to money, so when that feeling occurs, we do not take it seriously. If you do take it seriously, and burn your cash in a moment of blissful "understanding" that it is worthless paper, you will most likely regret it 20 seconds later.
Why would understanding mean just instantly burning it?

Instant rejection, the moment we see clearly?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 12:40:36 am by Callan S. »

sologdin

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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 12:06:14 am »
viramsata!

Royce

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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 09:51:13 am »
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Why would understanding mean just instantly burning it?

Instant rejection, the moment we see clearly?

It does not mean "just instantly burning it" as you say. To burn it instantly or later on, is just one of many reactions to this understanding that it is worthless.

Can you reject it, see it clearly, and still use it as before? Than this understanding means nothing at all. Wouldn`t this understanding lead to a reaction? burning or otherwise?

Madness

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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 11:36:16 am »
The Existential Scream
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Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 09:57:04 pm »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Callan S.

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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 11:43:37 pm »
Quote
Why would understanding mean just instantly burning it?

Instant rejection, the moment we see clearly?

It does not mean "just instantly burning it" as you say. To burn it instantly or later on, is just one of many reactions to this understanding that it is worthless.

Can you reject it, see it clearly, and still use it as before? Than this understanding means nothing at all. Wouldn`t this understanding lead to a reaction? burning or otherwise?
https://twitter.com/TheDevilsChirp/status/408640263620292608

Is one perhaps rushing, perhaps instinctually, towards a conclusion?

Why not sit on the decision, like one sits on ones move for awhile in chess?

But I don't think you can use it before, unless you let yourself get washed back in (which is sort of the subtext theme of this thread). But even then, given part of you will remember what it's like, I'm not sure you can wash back in fully, either (somewhat like Cnaur could not return to being 'of the people' because of what he'd witnessed)

Royce

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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2013, 07:09:14 pm »
Quote
Is one perhaps rushing, perhaps instinctually, towards a conclusion?

Why not sit on the decision, like one sits on ones move for awhile in chess?

But I don't think you can use it before, unless you let yourself get washed back in (which is sort of the subtext theme of this thread). But even then, given part of you will remember what it's like, I'm not sure you can wash back in fully, either (somewhat like Cnaur could not return to being 'of the people' because of what he'd witnessed)

I think most people who knows that it is worthless do nothing about it, because action towards this understanding is futile within the current system of
money(paper,plastic,digital or coin).

You can of course sit on the decision, but why? I think either action or inaction is more probable.

How can you not " let yourself be washed back in" by the way? Become an ascetic maybe?, remove yourself completely from the exchange of money?


Callan S.

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« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2013, 10:52:15 pm »
Well I'm presuming you can hold both positions at once, or atleast partially hold the notion it's nothing whilst also still shelling out da cash for your bus ride.

Why do that?

Because the first position is how things actually are. Hold the former position (to some degree), so as to hold onto reality (to some degree).

Quote
How can you not " let yourself be washed back in" by the way?
Apart from my above idea of holding two position, I didn't say to avoid being washed back in.

Just to witness it occuring - to know that's what's going on.

Of course, perhaps to know what's going on is to not be truly washed back in. But it's pretty close, I'm sure.