Suicide or not

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Garet Jax

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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 01:22:57 pm »
More exercise is probably a good idea, although running didn't help me at all.

I won't pretend to be as well spoken or educated as many of your respondents are... But, when I was depressed several years back, drinking myself to sleep every day and filling in the gaps either being stoned or experimenting with a myriad of other drugs, I contemplated suicide often.

While there might have been many contributing factors that helped me climb out of my downward spiral, running is what by far and large helped me the most.

It wasn't just running.. (1 or 2 miles)  Endurance Running is where it is at.  It saved my life.  I recommend setting several fitness goals and running a half or full marathon. (and then doing it again and again)

Out of all my daily actions, to me at least, only running is real.

Madness

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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2014, 01:48:22 pm »
I will echo GJ that diet, exercise, especially, and when practiced, meditation, are all supremely important in contributing to overall positive affect (feelings).

But, elsewise, I'm just waiting to listen for the moment whenever that happens to be.
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Phallus Pendulus

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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2014, 01:50:37 pm »
Hi, OP.

I agree with post above. Exercise a lot, go long-distance running or hit the gym, those endorphins will make you feel better. Use party drugs, get laid, whatever. If everything in life ever is a pointless distraction, then you can at least engage in the more pleasant distractions.

You're obviously into reading. Try reading something else than neuroscience books and manic-depressed German philosophers, it'll only fuck with your head if you're already depressed yourself.

Another thing: I see the reductionist "I'm not a real person, everybody is nobody" is a bit of a main theme in your OP. But how's your own suffering "real" then? How can the suffering be real, if the sufferers are not?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 01:58:12 pm by Phallus Pendulus »

Phallus Pendulus

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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2014, 02:05:48 pm »
Oh, and the infamous Tom Ligotti book you linked to, I've read it years ago. Here's a fairly good response to his EVERYTHING IS HORRIBLY USELESS author tract:

http://lovecraftzine.com/magazine/issues/2012-2/issue-13-april-2012/this-inscrutable-light-a-response-to-thomas-ligottis-the-conspiracy-against-the-human-race-by-brandon-h-bell/

Stop reading books by mentally diseased people, and start reading things you actually enjoy. Don't start wallowing in this negativity or get stuck in a feedback loop.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 02:16:12 pm by Phallus Pendulus »

Royce

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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2014, 02:16:52 pm »
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Another thing: I see the reductionist "I'm not a real person, everybody is nobody" is a bit of a main theme in your OP. But how's your own suffering "real" then? How can the suffering be real, if the sufferers are not?

This. Although suffering can feel overwhelmingly real, just as ecstacy is a overwhelmingly positive feeling. Feelings are tricky.

Phallus Pendulus

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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2014, 02:27:00 pm »
This. Although suffering can feel overwhelmingly real, just as ecstacy is a overwhelmingly positive feeling. Feelings are tricky.
I know.

I was just telling OP that he's not making sense: either both him and his suffering are real, or neither of them are.

Royce

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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2014, 03:15:27 pm »
could not agree more.

Alia

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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2014, 03:40:01 pm »
Auriga - I think I can relate to how you feel, at least partially. Throughout my life thinking of suicide has always been with me, although mostly as a kind of escape exit "If it gets worse, I can always kill myself". And not for any philosophical reasons, but simply because life sucks. Last week it got so bad, I even started thinking about technical details, fortunately I managed to climb out of my black hole.
What keeps me alive is mostly feeling of responsibility, I do not want to let down all those people who trust me, my principal, my students. Which is strange, as I also suffer from impostor syndrome, so whenever my professional achievements are praised I feel fear that people would find out that in reality I'm a cheat.
I've been in therapy, it helped some, not with everything. Last week I seriously considered going to a psychiatrist but did not get to arranging an appointment. Maybe I will, one day, or maybe I will go back to therapy. Or maybe my life circumstances will change enought to make me feel better.
Anyway, exercise is OK, endorphines make a great drug, but I would not stick to running. For me it's the most pointless activity ever, so I do aerobics, weight training and dancing instead. And it helps. Mostly. I also have people to whom I can talk, although the majority of them are on the internet. People around me, my colleagues, my students, know nothing about my real life, one of my colleagues even calls me "Sunshine". It seems I'm a master of disguise.
If I were you, I would keep going to psychiatrist. Sometimes the medication takes some time to kick in - or possibly it's time to think about trying something new? Often it's not the first drug that helps.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

The Great Scald

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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2014, 07:37:36 pm »
Interesting thread, lots of food for thought here. Since there's so much discussion here, I'll answer your posts separately:

Francis

I might ask if you are married or have a partner of any kind?

Not anymore, no. My last relationship didn't end well. I'm not the easiest person to live with, as anyone can see from reading my posts.

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When I say, "Just don't think about it," I don't mean never, ever think about it and become a drone in Disney world.

What do you mean, then?

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But I do mean to live a lie. LIVE THE LIE. Why the fuck not?

I can't force myself to live a lie, if I know it's a lie. Once those pleasant illusions are gone, they're not coming back. I've said before that I'm terrible at compartmentalizing my thoughts - other people can easily stay in "ruthless cynicism" mode at work (or even "nilihism" mode if they're a philosophy professor), only to switch into "Disneyland fairytale" mode when they're back at home with their families, all of this without breaking a sweat. I don't have that ability. 

In the end, I guess it comes down to biologically hardwired preferences - I guess I'm predisposed to have a gloomy temper and to value Truth over happiness. Even though I obviously want both, they seem to contradict each other.

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Value doesn't exist, no. Everything is meaningless. But we, as human beings, create the illusion of meaning. We may not be doing it intentionally (after all, it's just a chemical process), but that's the lie that we need.

I agree.

We do need the lie of intentionality to function - but when you know it's a lie, what the hell can you do? Knock your head against a wall and hope for brain damage and memory loss?

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Don't abandon your enlightenment.


It's not just that I won't abandon it, it's that I can't.

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This is the great curse of consciousness.

Consciousness is a curse, I agree. As a great man once said, "to live is to suffer". Sure, things like pleasure and suffering aren't really quantifiable, but my life has definitely involved the latter more than the former.

Never having been born in the first place is probably my greatest wish.

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But suicide does NOTHING. Most of the time it amounts largely to causing unnecessary pain to those around you.

And why should I care? When I'm gone, how will the "pain of those around me" affect me at all? Will I ever be aware of their pain that I killed myself?

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Keep living it, and do it better.

Empty platitudes, lol.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 07:47:11 pm by Auriga »

The Great Scald

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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2014, 07:46:00 pm »
On to next answer:

Royce

You don`t have to be so convinced that all these people you read actually are right in their assumptions.

As far as I can infer, they're completely right. Empirical science definitely suggests that human consciousness is an emergent system (an epiphenomenon caused by pre-programmed biology, if you will) and not some sort of supernatural core in the center of our minds. I obviously can't prove they're correct, in the same way I can't prove God doesn't exist, but they're convincing to me. There's something called "inference to the best explanation", you might want to look it up.

I'm far too level-headed and rational (you might call it Aspergery) to make some sort of great leap of faith and believe in things that aren't empirical reality. I don't have a religious bone in my body.

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I know that it is pretty convincing though, since I (and probably everyone on this board) share your perspective

If we both agree on these things, why are you even arguing with me at all?

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I am sad, because I have been there, and I know there is a way out(at least for me there was).

What was you way out, then? Eating shrooms and reading Buddhist platitudes?

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I would also recommend that you give Alan Watts a chance. He may be the only guy who have gotten my out of a depression by using words. The book: On the taboo against knowing who you are, is pure brilliance IMO. Just do me(this guy you do not know:)) a favor and read that one.

I have it on PDF now, will check it out later. Thanks for the recommendation, though.

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Here is a little quote: "When you know for sure that your separate ego is a fiction, you actually feel yourself as the whole process and pattern of life." Psychedelics make you feel this, seriously. PM me if you want to talk more about this.

Ok, will do.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 08:17:24 pm by Auriga »

The Great Scald

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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2014, 08:08:52 pm »
Curethan

It is true that value and meaning are invested attributes.  But why should this make them illusory simply because they have no material reality? Do you define logic and mathematics as illusory?

They're illusory because they don't correspond with material reality. Intentionality doesn't exist anywhere outside of the human imagination. There's nothing that suggests the universe around us has any purpose or meaning at all.

Math, on the other hand, does correspond with material reality. It's a "language" of symbols, if you will.

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By your own definition, are they not manufactured by the functions of our biological processes?  In which case they do come from without, but it's your game to manage and direct them.

Are you serious? I don't "manage and direct" my thoughts, nobody does. They're the result of unconscious processes that I don't control at all. It's funny you bring this up on a Bakker forum, of all places.

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Personally, I disagree that free will is an illusion. Certainly, the latitude of our ability to determine our own actions is grossly over-estimated and the realization of this has led many to consider that the opposite is true.  Especially the depressive philosophers like Schopenhauer et al. 

Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree then.

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I would recommend reading up on chaos and complex systems if you think that we live in a clockwork, predetermined universe.  "Chaos" by James Gleik is an easy read that changed the way I look at the world.  Nothing ever repeats perfectly, so how can we truly be bound to repeat ourselves?  Our behaviours are bifurcating chaotic patterns, they may look similar but differences propagate, multiply and are winnowed.

I'll check out that book as well. Lots of reading on my list for this week, it seems.

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Honestly, you sound somewhat depressed.

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

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That's cool, but you need to avoid dwelling on existential bullshit like this. 

I can't avoid dwelling on it. I always have this gnawing suspicion, every hour of every day, that it's this nihilist/determinist view that is the Truth and that everything else is delusional bullshit.

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Set yourself a challenge, change something about yourself and tell me if the highs and lows you experience on that journey are worthwhile or not.

Challenges are meaningless. So what if I overcome them? What then? I can't think of a reason why I'd want to change anything about myself.

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Sitting about wondering if you are wasting your time and getting morose is a mug's game.  Fuck the cold reality of the universe, it will go on without you.

I agree, sitting around and whining is a waste of time. But then again, my whole existence is a waste of time. I can't "avoid" thinking about this, and that's why suicide is looking like a better and better option with each day.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 08:16:09 pm by Auriga »

Alia

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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2014, 08:52:46 pm »
Auriga, you sound very much like a friend of mine, who is severely depressed. And just like I don't know what to tell her, I don't know what to tell you. Telling you things like "you need to stop thinking those depressing thoughts", "you need to do something positive" won't work, this never works. Even though dwelling on things that make you feel even worse is quite typical for depression.
So I guess I can say only that - I sincerely hope you find something that will make you feel better.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

Royce

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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2014, 09:01:47 pm »
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As far as I can infer, they're completely right. Empirical science definitely suggests that human consciousness is an emergent system (an epiphenomenon caused by pre-programmed biology, if you will) and not some sort of supernatural core in the center of our minds. I obviously can't prove they're correct, in the same way I can't prove God doesn't exist, but they're convincing to me. There's something called "inference to the best explanation", you might want to look it up.

Well, I would wait until it is an undisputed fact before I conclude. Who knows what will be discovered next. To make such a drastic choice as ending your life, based on something that is suggested seems to me a bit hasty.

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If we both agree on these things, why are you even arguing with me at all?

I agree with the description, but I do not agree that it has to be viewed as pessimistic or meaningless. That is just a matter of perspective.

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What was you way out, then? Eating shrooms and reading Buddhist platitudes?

You can be as condescending as you like sir, it does not change the fact that it might help you too. I have not really read much buddhism, or any eastern religion really. I sincerely think that direct experience work much better than words. Many examples are already mentioned, but IMO psychedelics did something indescribable. There is a difference between thinking/reading about being punched in your face, and actually being punched. Psychedelics punch you.Hard. Being smeared all over the universe, has to do something to you. What it does is not for me to say, it has to be experienced. But again, it is extremely important that you treat them with respect, and honestly, I am not sure it is a good idea if you suffer from a mental illness. If you are diagnosed with something, I would tread lightly and do some research before I entered the universe.

The Great Scald

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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2014, 09:31:26 pm »
Sciborg

Maybe it's because I spent a long time as a crazy child believing in an indeterministic universe, and have a soft spot for  variations on the Argument from Reason, but I've yet to be totally convinced by anyone's arguments that free will isn't real and apparently John Lucas & the guy who runs Conscious Entities aren't either.

Interesting links. I'll make sure to read them after responding to the other posts here.

I've read some of Conscious Entities, and he seems to be pretty skeptical about most things. Not quite sure what his own views are, since he brings up other philosophers most of the time. His articles on Thomas Metzinger (another determinist philosopher who I mostly agree with) were interesting, I gotta reread them sometime.

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I had a friend who was a depressed determinist who converted to spirituality because of ayahuasca. Now I'm not saying Mother Ayahuasca is a real goddess but the important thing is if you just commit suicide you will never know exactly what that experience was so make attending an ayahuasca church ceremony your goal.

 ::)

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Not everyone in philosophy is as convinced about how consciousness actually works. Heck, Chalmers even considers neutral monism and panpsychism as more likely than materialism, and McGinn wonders if mental causality is really the same as physical causality.

I've read some of Chalmers, but not enough to be able to comment (IIRC, Brassier's Nihil Unbound criticized him a lot). As for the other guy, Colin McGinn, he seems to believe in a semi-religious dogma of "we can't discover anything more about consciousness, this is it." It all sounds a bit too neat to me, IMO. And it's unsatisfying, especially in this age where we're learning more and more about how the brain actually works every year. Neuroscience has totally changed the way we look at human consciousness.

(If there were things we couldn't possibly discover or infer, we wouldn't be worried about them in the first place - what difference would they make to us? If the answers of consciousness are completely beyond us, then the questions should be beyond us too. Dogs can't understand nuclear physics, but that's because they don't get that there's anything there to understand in the first place.)

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It relates to the whole experience thing Francis was talking about, but I guess I'm also saying take a gamble on philosophical conclusions being wrong. Remember until quantum mechanics few people were seriously considering the acausal events of indeterminism.

Don't know enough about quantum mechanics to comment on this, TBH.

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There's just so much weird stuff out there that suggest we don't know as much as we think we do, whether it's Krippner's weird Grateful Dead telepathy results or just the placebo effect.

Never heard of those Krippner telepathy experiments, either. Since this is the first time I ever hear about them, they can't have been especially convincing, so excuse me if I'm still seriously doubting that telepathy exists.

Anyways, thanks for the reading tips. Whew, that's one huge pile of books on the "to read" list for this week...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 09:33:11 pm by Auriga »

The Great Scald

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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2014, 09:54:37 pm »
And for the second time...

Francis (again)

And that's why the meaninglessness doesn't matter. Even if it's an illusion, it's an illusion that CANNOT BE ESCAPED.

How's that a good thing? I can only see two ways to get out of the situation I'm in:

1) suicide
2) drug use, until I'm too stoned to think normally
3) memory loss

Either way, the only way for me to cope with the illusion is to not know that it's an illusion.

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That's why I said: Just go along with the ride.

Don't see any point in it.

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Pursue interests. Gather knowledge. Create art. Make friends. Do drugs. Have sex. Make love. BE IN LOVE.

Why? They're all meaningless in the end.

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There's a reason some people think love is the metaphysical core of reality.

That's because most people are idiots who think the universe revolves around them and their feelings.

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Love is one of the few things that can undercut FEARS of all kind. Fear of death, even, and that's almost always the greatest fear of all. But also the fear of meaninglessness. Love makes you not give a shit about the illusion. And again, I'm not necessarily talking about romantic love.

YAWN. More platitudes.

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The point, I guess, is this: Who cares if it's an illusion? Why do you read books? Why do you watch movies? It's the EXPERIENCE. That's all we have, and I say we work with it and make life as great as possible for everyone involved. Whether we have a choice in the matter is irrelevant at that point.

Why should I make life as great as possible for everyone else involved (and, for that matter, for myself?)?

So I can feel morally superior and pat myself on the back? So I can satisfy my herd-animal instinct, a pointless instinct that exists only to perpetuate a pointless species, to feel altruistic?