[Wilshire]

No way the Dunyain have their own Hari Seldon Prophecy.


I wasn't implying that Kellhus would fail his mission, only that the mission as he knew it might have been a lie right from the start. If the Dunyain truely tried to send him to Shimeh, then they probably guessed that he would make it, but I just don't think that was their initial intent.

Like SOA mentioned, as far as we now the Dunyain don't factor in metaphysics into their causality chain. I'm saying that regardless of what the initial intent of sending Kellhus into the world was, none of them could have correctly predicted Kellhus becoming what he is. Which, imo, includes some Hari Seldon/Dunyain Nostradamus.

The only way they could have foreseen Kellhus' ascension  would be if they were working closely with either the Nonmen, the Consult (extremely unlikely), a select few World-Born (also unlikely), or if they had secret Dunyain agents in the world already.

Even if the Pragma (or whatever the ruling caste is) knew about magic and the outside, I still have some doubt that they could have done it... Though I would allow for them being able to predict it all if, and only if, the end-game was to forge Kellhus into the only Self Moving Soul.

[Madness]

No way the Dunyain have their own Hari Seldon Prophecy.

Dunyain Nostra-Sheldon !

Like SOA mentioned, as far as we now the Dunyain don't factor in metaphysics into their causality chain. I'm saying that regardless of what the initial intent of sending Kellhus into the world was, none of them could have correctly predicted Kellhus becoming what he is. Which, imo, includes some Hari Seldon/Dunyain Nostradamus.

Well, we have it on pretty good authority - the first prologue - that the bulk of the Dunyain are ignoring some foundational variables of the greater world in their quest for purity in isolation.

But Dunyain Haridamus!

The only way they could have foreseen Kellhus' ascension  would be if they were working closely with either the Nonmen, the Consult (extremely unlikely), a select few World-Born (also unlikely), or if they had secret Dunyain agents in the world already.

I've previously posited the first and the fourth seems likely. Previous iterations of Kellhus and Moenghus let out into the world?

Even if the Pragma (or whatever the ruling caste is) knew about magic and the outside, I still have some doubt that they could have done it... Though I would allow for them being able to predict it all if, and only if, the end-game was to forge Kellhus into the only Self Moving Soul.

Or Kellhus symbiosis?

[Wilshire]

No way the Dunyain have their own Hari Seldon Prophecy.

Dunyain Nostra-Sheldon !

Sorry but Sheldon is a character from a TV show, Seldon is the character from the book.

My only reservation would be that its possible the Dunyain where planning for the long-game right from the start. Not particularly likely, but possible.

[Madness]

Seldon... I guess Sheldon is appropriate .

[mrganondorf]

Going off the deep end: Ishual is *entirely* made up for Kellhus' conditioning.  There are no Dunyain, it's just the fiction to get the right kind of fanatic.  Akka will be finding out things Kellhus is entirely blind to because the Dunyain narrative is stamped too deep into mind (just like it's stamped too deep into mine to take my own crazy seriously).

Upside: huge twist for the reader!  Ultimate wtf moment for Kellhus when his plans foil at the end of TUC.

[mrganondorf]

New crazy: Ishual destroyed by sranc...from within!  That first batch of sranc that attacked years ago were subdued and put into breeding cages.  These Dunyain Sranc became too powerful and clever and brought the whole thing down.  They are going to surprise everyone since they serve neither Kellhus nor the Black Heaven.

[Wilshire]

I'll allow from within, i.e from the depth, but I can't go along with crazy breeding program. If Ishual was built on an old Mansion, its possible sranc simply (finally) made it to the surface, see: Cil'Aujas.

[mrganondorf]

I'll allow from within, i.e from the depth, but I can't go along with crazy breeding program. If Ishual was built on an old Mansion, its possible sranc simply (finally) made it to the surface, see: Cil'Aujas.

Young Dunyain surviving in the labyrinth = equals surviving sranc that filter in from down below?

[Madness]

Read the prologue for TDTCB recently (I'm almost through the book again): the Dunyain who receive Moenghus the Elder's dream messages meet in the Thousand Thousand Halls, implying that they live and hold counsel there.

[mrganondorf]

Dunyain counseling in absolute darkness does seem fitting--the dark would seem to isolate a lot of style from content.  Dunyains just exchange propositions in flat voices in the dark.

I wonder if Mimara will hear them the way she saw images from Cil-Aujus' past?

[The Sharmat]

I hadn't considered that it might be a Topos from all the torture and eugenics. Still, I'd think Kellhus would have remembered something like that.

[Cüréthañ]

I doubt it too.  I think causes of the topoi at Cil Aujis, Golgotteroth and Mengedda were deliberate.

[Wilshire]

Read the prologue for TDTCB recently (I'm almost through the book again): the Dunyain who receive Moenghus the Elder's dream messages meet in the Thousand Thousand Halls, implying that they live and hold counsel there.

Hold counsel yeah, don't know if that implies that they live down there though.

Dunyain counseling in absolute darkness does seem fitting--the dark would seem to isolate a lot of style from content.  Dunyains just exchange propositions in flat voices in the dark.

Reminds me of Second Foundation. They had whole meetings with groups of people without speaking words, just looking at eachother faces. You described the opposite, but to much the same effect.

[Madness]

Reminds me of Second Foundation. They had whole meetings with groups of people without speaking words, just looking at eachother faces. You described the opposite, but to much the same effect.

I really enjoy how much we read into the Asimov connections now.

[Wilshire]

Whether or not they are intentional, parallels can be drawn to all the great works.