[mrganondorf]

his son, being a direct blood relation, was far more likely to be one of the Few than any given random Dunyain

It's interesting to think what would have happened if Kellhus was not one few.  Somnambulist wrote something provocative:

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1064.0

Perhaps Moenghus would be prepared for either contingency: Kellhus gets sorcery or Kellhus enslaves those that have it.  If Kellhus were not one of the few, I guess the narrative would have followed his seduction of the Scarlet Spires instead of just one lonely Mandati

[The Sharmat]

There's a problem there. Kellhus does describe seeing a mark on the Nonman much later in the book, remembering. Just not explicitly during that encounter. I think it's absence in that chapter was an oversight on Bakker's part.

[mrganondorf]

I think Kellhus was always one of the few and Bakker's late reveal was to keep the reader in the dark for awhile.  But I like Somnambulist's read.  Whatever is in the darkness of Kellhus' soul/the puppet master changes him from time to time with updated memories.  If you could make someone into a member of the Few, then a Dunyain would be the one to figure it out.  Maybe Moenghus molding the pot?

[Wilshire]

Well, I guess it depends on the naming conventions they used.  A certain number of degrees of genelogical tracking where you get to be called Anasurimbor.  Or perhaps a designation of natural skill level - i.e. only the elite students are "Anasurimbors'.

Interesting that Moe called for his son. Given the patriachal systems of the Three Seas a male would be far more useful for TTT.  But maybe Kellhus has a far more talented sister?

Haha maybe you missed my post, this is pretty much what I said
After so long waiting and being in the dark, everything still hidden seems like it should be important. The Dunyain women chief among them.
But, for TTT and the Three Seas, a male would have indeed been more useful.

Oh they were inbred as hell, but still most of their numbers didn't seem to be among the Few so either those genes are fairly recessive, or something about Dunyain eugenics selected against it preferentially.

How could you know most of them were not of the Few?
Also this:

The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.

I'm afraid there's not much I can say, Ikiru. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

Also:

Kellhus blinked, and his senses leapt back into their proper proportion. How was this possible? Sorcery? If so, it possessed nothing of the strange torsion he’d experienced with the Nonman he’d battled so long ago. Sorcery, Kellhus had realized, was inexplicably grotesque — like the scribblings of a child across a work of art — though he did not know why. All he knew was that he could distinguish sorcery from the world and sorcerers from common men. This was among the many mysteries that had motivated his study of Drusas Achamian.

There's a problem there. Kellhus does describe seeing a mark on the Nonman much later in the book, remembering. Just not explicitly during that encounter. I think it's absence in that chapter was an oversight on Bakker's part.

Which one? I don't recall him seeing any nonmen other than Mek in the beginning.

I think Kellhus was always one of the few and Bakker's late reveal was to keep the reader in the dark for awhile. 

One of the best reveals in the series so far, I think. I was pretty damn excited when Akka started puzzling it out, realizing what Kellhus' intellect could do with the Gnosis...

[The Sharmat]

How could you know most of them were not of the Few?

Didn't all the Dunyain that could receive Moenghus' dreams (and thus all the Dunyain that were of the Few) commit suicide? And didn't Bakker say that was like 1/3rd of them or something? This was one of those things from an interview rather than the books so I'm not sure where to find it

Of course 1/3rd would still be way higher than the number in the general population.

[Cüréthañ]

Never heard an actual number or percentage. Moenghus was also limited to contacting the dunyain he knew (there is some level of familiarity required) at Ishual, so there's a Venn overlap there.

[Wilshire]

Maybe what Curethan was suggesting, but I assumed that the Psuke Cants of Calling work the same way as the other schools. One must know the person and the place. I had always thought that the 'place' clause was very specific. He'd have to get the correct bedchamber. Also, the cants of compulsion work on those that cannot perceive the Onta, so I would also posite that this is not a limiting factor to sending dreams. Moenghus probably tried to contact every single Dunyain he could, but because of his 30 years absent, he only knew a few that remained alive, and could guess correctly only a handful where they slept.

The above quote from Bakker kind of points to the fact that Sight was tied to other useful traits in the Dunyain breeding program, so I believe nearly all the Dunyain can see the Onta

(side note, I want a better way to describe see the Onta. Maybe an acronmy... SotO (Sight of the Onta), PotO (Perception of the Onta)...)

[Somnambulist]

Moe was also adept at scrying, so he could have employed his version of flame-seeing to obtain the locations of those he knew, thus enabling him to send the dreams.

[Wilshire]

Oh right, I did forget about the scrying loophole. That does still leave "knowing" the person though. Wonder how that's defined. Since you must also have been to the physical location, maybe you must have had a physical connection to the person you want to call. Scrying wouldn't be able to circumvent that.

[Somnambulist]

Moe was in his 20's (I think) before he was exiled.  Plenty of time for a Dunyain to 'know' many of the residents of Ishual.  All he had to do was fire-see in the unmasking room (all those candles) to find those he knew who remained/were still alive.

[Cüréthañ]

Again, depends on what 'knowing' really means.
Is it the amount of people you would recognize from their portrait, or the amount of people you would recognize from their handwriting.  (Clearly the latter example is almost the same thing for a dunyain, but you get the idea of degree of difference.)
We only see sorcerers explicitly dream-skyping with people they know very well.

Then, how many dunyain are there anyway, and how many of them is a student permitted to interact with? (Remember, even the fall of a leaf is strictly controlled in Ishual.)

There are too many unknown variables, father.

[mrganondorf]

what about that SS grunt they dropped off at Joktha?  at the max, he would have known his superior roughly the same amount of time as moe knew folks in ishual

by the by, i personally don't think moe needed to know anyone back in ishual to send the dreams, he's got some kind of conduit like the seeing-flame and just inflicts the dreams on whoever he wants

IF he did know that the dream-infected dunyain would be considered polluted and be put to death (why not send them out like moe?) and IF they were in fact put to death (not just a ploy for Kellhus' sake) then Moe perhaps tricked the dunyain into assassinating some members that would have been problematic for him???

[Wilshire]

I don't recall the grunt, so I'll leave that for another's speculation

You raise some good points about the Dunyain and their reaction. I suspect he spent lots of time in the probability trance figuring out how to get the exact reaction he wanted from the Dunyain. That reaction may or may not have been what Kellhus saw.

[mrganondorf]

the adept who was supposed to slee till noon, the guy who pointed out conphas' disguised far caller

[citizensnips]

Thread necro, and this is probably directly contradicted by a passage in an earlier book but....maybe Ishual is just like that?

It's a 2,000+ year old castle. Given their rules about staying in one place and their (presumably) small population pool, it seems unlikely the Dûnyain would have the resources and expertise to maintain such a large structure. Especially if they destroyed any magic runes or such that might have been propping it up. Maybe they just live around and below the ruin.