The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: Madness on May 12, 2016, 01:45:52 am

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Momemn
Post by: Madness on May 12, 2016, 01:45:52 am
The Fanim appear outside Momemn as Esmenet reconciles with Maithanet only as he is murdered by the White-Luck Warrior...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 10:21:29 am
The Fanim appear outside Momemn as Esmenet reconciles with Maithanet only as he is murdered by the White-Luck Warrior...

Well, we don't see it, but I can't imagine that Psatma had nothing to do with the timing.  No doubt she had them arrive at the "opportune" time...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:18:33 pm
Kellhus using the "do-over" trick!  Has he been doing this all along???  Imagine that he met his father 10,000 times and found the just right spot to kill old Moe without being harmed!

I wonder though if Kellhus can only use the trick with Kelmomas...

If Kellhus is editing time, it might be that the Series That Shall Not Be Named is going to be the First Apocalypse.  Kellhus realizes that he just can not stop NG's return, so he goes way back.  I bet he lets the First Apocalypse play out just so and then when NG is struck down makes his move to finish off the Consult.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 07:27:50 pm
Kellhus using the "do-over" trick!  Has he been doing this all along???  Imagine that he met his father 10,000 times and found the just right spot to kill old Moe without being harmed!

I wonder though if Kellhus can only use the trick with Kelmomas...

If Kellhus is editing time, it might be that the Series That Shall Not Be Named is going to be the First Apocalypse.  Kellhus realizes that he just can not stop NG's return, so he goes way back.  I bet he lets the First Apocalypse play out just so and then when NG is struck down makes his move to finish off the Consult.
Which do-over trick?

I had to go back and check, you'd think that he beheaded Malowebi after he defeated Meppa (the sword coming down and all). I had assumed the final scene in the chapter was just out of sequence, but when Kellhus finds Esmi (after defeating the Fanim and putting down Meppa like a punk) he still has both decapitants on his belt. So, yeah, I kind of wonder if he is editing time also.

Speaking of Meppa, I feel like it's safe to say that neither Moe nor Cnaiur, singularly or as one soul, quantum leaped into another body to form a super Cish.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 07:41:07 pm
I had to go back and check, you'd think that he beheaded Malowebi after he defeated Meppa (the sword coming down and all). I had assumed the final scene in the chapter was just out of sequence, but when Kellhus finds Esmi (after defeating the Fanim and putting down Meppa like a punk) he still has both decapitants on his belt. So, yeah, I kind of wonder if he is editing time also.

Yeah, something is up with that.  There shouldn't be a break between him swinging and Malowebi's head seeing Kellhus replace him, yet, there is...

I don't think he is editing time, because if he was, his power would literally be unlimited.  He could have just went back, killed Meppa before Meppa was even Meppa.  Or move Esmenet before she even walked into the throne room.

Something is up with the whole "this has already happened" and somehow Kellhus is manipulating that.  How? I don't know...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 08:09:39 pm
Also, as I read it, Meppa is still very much alive. I wonder what Kellhus has planned for him. The Consult seemed quite bent on destroying the Cishaurim in PON, and we know that Indara's Waterbearers were not around during the FA, so I wonder if there is something about the Psukhe that will really mess with the No-God.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 12, 2016, 08:29:37 pm
Also, as I read it, Meppa is still very much alive. I wonder what Kellhus has planned for him. The Consult seemed quite bent on destroying the Cishaurim in PON, and we know that Indara's Waterbearers were not around during the FA, so I wonder if there is something about the Psukhe that will really mess with the No-God.

Madness and I were talking about this.  Would love to see a twin-assault on the Consult, Kellhus and Meppa just tearing shit up.  The way it reads (their confrontation) it very much seemed that Meppa almost killed Kellhus, if only it weren't for Malowebi's Chalice.  Now, he's Kellhus after all, so that didn't happen.  However, it begs the question:  would Meppa's ocean of Water be enough to overcome other Gnostic sorcerers?  Akka related in PON that he took out a Cishaurim in the past.  But he's not Kellhus and that other Cish wasn't Meppa.  Just makes me wonder at Meppa's power level relative to the average Gnostic sorcerer.  Seems like he could hold his own.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 10:05:00 pm
Also, as I read it, Meppa is still very much alive. I wonder what Kellhus has planned for him. The Consult seemed quite bent on destroying the Cishaurim in PON, and we know that Indara's Waterbearers were not around during the FA, so I wonder if there is something about the Psukhe that will really mess with the No-God.

Madness and I were talking about this.  Would love to see a twin-assault on the Consult, Kellhus and Meppa just tearing shit up.  The way it reads (their confrontation) it very much seemed that Meppa almost killed Kellhus, if only it weren't for Malowebi's Chalice.  Now, he's Kellhus after all, so that didn't happen.  However, it begs the question:  would Meppa's ocean of Water be enough to overcome other Gnostic sorcerers?  Akka related in PON that he took out a Cishaurim in the past.  But he's not Kellhus and that other Cish wasn't Meppa.  Just makes me wonder at Meppa's power level relative to the average Gnostic sorcerer.  Seems like he could hold his own.
I think I read that much differently. I'll have to go check. It seemed to me that Kellhus was just studying Meppa and was in no real danger.

I know there's a lot of disagreement about this on the forum, but I rank MOST Cishaurim below MOST anagogic sorcerers. I think that is something specific about the Psukhe that the Consult fears. That being said, probably Meppa is stronger than most of the (now dead) Cishaurim primaries.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 12, 2016, 10:12:14 pm
To clarify, he almost killed Kellhus at the very beginning of his assault on Kel (or seemed to have).  Malowebi was bearing the brunt of the onslaught, which allowed Kel to assess Meppa, then deal with him.  My poorly-worded point was that it seemed as if Meppa's initial torrent pretty much tore through Kel's wards and the only thing that saved him in that moment was Malowebi's Chalice.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 10:20:41 pm
To clarify, he almost killed Kellhus at the very beginning of his assault on Kel (or seemed to have).  Malowebi was bearing the brunt of the onslaught, which allowed Kel to assess Meppa, then deal with him.  My poorly-worded point was that it seemed as if Meppa's initial torrent pretty much tore through Kel's wards and the only thing that saved him in that moment was Malowebi's Chalice.

Yes, I do see what you are saying, but the assumption in your statement is that Malowebi's pseudo-anagogic chalice is stronger than gnostic wards, and I don't buy that. My opinion :D
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 13, 2016, 12:11:37 am
Yeah, I see the absurdity of that.  Just re-read the chapter.  Seems I was misplacing events in my faulty memory.  I concede, good sir.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 13, 2016, 10:25:02 am
Chances are that it is literally impossible to kill Kellhus using sorcery though, since he can teleport wherever he wants.  You'd have to hit him so hard as to break meta-Gnostic Wards but also so fast that he wouldn't realize the Wards were breaking so as to just teleport away.

I don't think we've seen anyone with that sort of power.  I don't think it's likely we ever will either.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Madness on May 14, 2016, 02:48:10 pm
Kellhus using the "do-over" trick!  Has he been doing this all along???  Imagine that he met his father 10,000 times and found the just right spot to kill old Moe without being harmed!

I wonder though if Kellhus can only use the trick with Kelmomas...

If Kellhus is editing time, it might be that the Series That Shall Not Be Named is going to be the First Apocalypse.  Kellhus realizes that he just can not stop NG's return, so he goes way back.  I bet he lets the First Apocalypse play out just so and then when NG is struck down makes his move to finish off the Consult.

Which do-over trick?

I had to go back and check, you'd think that he beheaded Malowebi after he defeated Meppa (the sword coming down and all). I had assumed the final scene in the chapter was just out of sequence, but when Kellhus finds Esmi (after defeating the Fanim and putting down Meppa like a punk) he still has both decapitants on his belt. So, yeah, I kind of wonder if he is editing time also.

Speaking of Meppa, I feel like it's safe to say that neither Moe nor Cnaiur, singularly or as one soul, quantum leaped into another body to form a super Cish.

I'm not sure about editing time but that one - I feel - results from Bakker not reorganizing the chapters.

However, the relationship between the Gods, the Outside, and the World and how Kellhus has co-opted that still confuse me.

Also, as I read it, Meppa is still very much alive. I wonder what Kellhus has planned for him. The Consult seemed quite bent on destroying the Cishaurim in PON, and we know that Indara's Waterbearers were not around during the FA, so I wonder if there is something about the Psukhe that will really mess with the No-God.

Madness and I were talking about this.  Would love to see a twin-assault on the Consult, Kellhus and Meppa just tearing shit up.  The way it reads (their confrontation) it very much seemed that Meppa almost killed Kellhus, if only it weren't for Malowebi's Chalice.  Now, he's Kellhus after all, so that didn't happen.  However, it begs the question:  would Meppa's ocean of Water be enough to overcome other Gnostic sorcerers?  Akka related in PON that he took out a Cishaurim in the past.  But he's not Kellhus and that other Cish wasn't Meppa.  Just makes me wonder at Meppa's power level relative to the average Gnostic sorcerer.  Seems like he could hold his own.

To clarify, he almost killed Kellhus at the very beginning of his assault on Kel (or seemed to have).  Malowebi was bearing the brunt of the onslaught, which allowed Kel to assess Meppa, then deal with him.  My poorly-worded point was that it seemed as if Meppa's initial torrent pretty much tore through Kel's wards and the only thing that saved him in that moment was Malowebi's Chalice.

Yes, I do see what you are saying, but the assumption in your statement is that Malowebi's pseudo-anagogic chalice is stronger than gnostic wards, and I don't buy that. My opinion :D

Lol - for my limited thoughts. I think Meppa is stronger than any normal Gnostic sorcerer for being the Last Cishaurim. But I also think that when Kellhus shelters inside the Iswazi Ward, it is the Mbimayu sorcery which attracts his curiousity - having never been exposed to Zeumi Schoolmen before - not concern as to how to defeat Meppa.

And yes, Meppa is still alive - as per Somnambulist correcting me over a month ago now ;).

I really think that Bakker slips some interesting tidbits regarding Zeum into this momentous battle. Firstly, Mbimayu seems to be a state-sanctioned School akin to the Cishaurim being Fanim Holy. Secondly, and more importantly, what could possibly surprise Kellhus about "another Anagogic sorcery?" What does it mean that Malowebi chants and thinks against his chanting? What is "the sacred-and-accursed Song of Iswa?" Are Mbimayu mayhaps not Damned in their exercise of sorcery?

EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Madness on May 14, 2016, 03:24:12 pm
Sorry, double post, but another thought:

I'm fairly sure Meppa is that kid in TTT that Aurang "tells a secret." Wouldn't it be really interesting, since learning that it was the Dunyain and not the Cishaurim or the Psuhke responsible for outing the Skin-Spies, that the Consult might have helped the kid learn the Psuhke so that he'd be another thorn in Kellhus' side later?
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 14, 2016, 04:54:52 pm
Quote
EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 14, 2016, 05:47:00 pm
Another double-poster here.  Specifically regarding Meppa.

So in WLW, he's described as having white hair, which I griped about before since he's Cish and they usually shave their heads.  In TGO, when he drops his Fanayal glamour disguise and attacks Esmi, he's described as shaven (cheeks, chin and scalp) like a Cish should be.  So, probably not important at all, but was the white hair before just a glamour so that enemies wouldn't be able to identify him?  Or did he just decide to shave his head when they got to Momemn?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Also, Meppa doesn't utilize snakes, like at all, from what I remember.  Certainly, none were mentioned in TGO.  Is his visor then providing a sight alternative?  Seems likely now I think about it.  In addition to the shaven head, having snakes wrapped around your neck may have been too much of a give-away if you're trying to hide that you're a Cish from would-be assassins.

Anyway, just random thoughts on my favorite, nearly-extinct branch of sorcerous practitioners.  Carry on.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Wilshire on May 15, 2016, 12:06:08 am
I had to go back and check, you'd think that he beheaded Malowebi after he defeated Meppa (the sword coming down and all). I had assumed the final scene in the chapter was just out of sequence, but when Kellhus finds Esmi (after defeating the Fanim and putting down Meppa like a punk) he still has both decapitants on his belt. So, yeah, I kind of wonder if he is editing time also.

Yeah, something is up with that.  There shouldn't be a break between him swinging and Malowebi's head seeing Kellhus replace him, yet, there is...

I don't think he is editing time, because if he was, his power would literally be unlimited.  He could have just went back, killed Meppa before Meppa was even Meppa.  Or move Esmenet before she even walked into the throne room.

Something is up with the whole "this has already happened" and somehow Kellhus is manipulating that.  How? I don't know...

Could be out of order, could be some backwards/forwards time moments within the story. Like, for example, Dagliash this happens several times.

Teleportation makes things happen very fast: Slices off head, teleports to esmi, Kelmomas yells, teleports to Malowebi, replaces head with decapitant.

Malowebi could have spent longer than you might initially think with his soul in oblivion

"This has already happened" comes into play with Survivor as well, and his revelations about Zero-God. Something about all of time existing at once for the God/s but also linearly for those within it.  White-Luck's POVs, IMO, show us a kind of mortals perspective of the God/s POV. Everything has happened, yet they still flow from one event to the next. From before to after ;).

My point being that I have sincere doubts there is any timetravel, especially for mortals. Like how a massive object can't go the speed of light, a soul encumbered by a mortal body can't go back in time.


I know there's a lot of disagreement about this on the forum, but I rank MOST Cishaurim below MOST anagogic sorcerers. I think that is something specific about the Psukhe that the Consult fears. That being said, probably Meppa is stronger than most of the (now dead) Cishaurim primaries.
If that ranking is correct, it seems unlikely SS would have been so decimated.
Even if it is correct, its never the 'most' that matter. I get the feeling that the majority of a school's power is in their sorcerers of rank. Who cares about the peons. The Primaries outmatched the SS's most elite.

Its not relevant though, since there aren't any more Cish. Meppa seemed to dispense an enormous amount of power. Something like that I would hope would be stronger than the Analogies grandmasters, and probably many of the Gnosoti.

In the scene where Meppa and Kell are going at it 1v1,  Malowebi sees Kell's wards disappear, but they continue to reflect and repel the water as he completes his Cant.

Quote
EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.

Kellhus has Believe-Kings from all nations. Pretty sure there are references to Ninameshi contingents in The Great Ordeal.

Speaking of Meppa, I feel like it's safe to say that neither Moe nor Cnaiur, singularly or as one soul, quantum leaped into another body to form a super Cish.
Thank the Gods we can get past at least this one part of the meta-moenghus crackpottery.

Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Madness on May 15, 2016, 05:58:06 pm
Quote
EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.

I'd have to find the exact quote but I believe I recall the Nilnameshi were either simply tributaries to Fanim Kian or recently converted? I believe it comes up nearer the end of TWP in one of the Omnipresent War POVs.

Another double-poster here.  Specifically regarding Meppa.

So in WLW, he's described as having white hair, which I griped about before since he's Cish and they usually shave their heads.  In TGO, when he drops his Fanayal glamour disguise and attacks Esmi, he's described as shaven (cheeks, chin and scalp) like a Cish should be.  So, probably not important at all, but was the white hair before just a glamour so that enemies wouldn't be able to identify him?  Or did he just decide to shave his head when they got to Momemn?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Also, Meppa doesn't utilize snakes, like at all, from what I remember.  Certainly, none were mentioned in TGO.  Is his visor then providing a sight alternative?  Seems likely now I think about it.  In addition to the shaven head, having snakes wrapped around your neck may have been too much of a give-away if you're trying to hide that you're a Cish from would-be assassins.

Anyway, just random thoughts on my favorite, nearly-extinct branch of sorcerous practitioners.  Carry on.

When Malowebi first meets Fanayal in WLW Meppa does have a snake with him.

Could be out of order, could be some backwards/forwards time moments within the story. Like, for example, Dagliash this happens several times.

Teleportation makes things happen very fast: Slices off head, teleports to esmi, Kelmomas yells, teleports to Malowebi, replaces head with decapitant.

Malowebi could have spent longer than you might initially think with his soul in oblivion.

I think the problem is two-fold. Bakker's sense of narrative continuity per book is not great. When I read the draft, there were a few serious timing issues, which Bakker admitted that he had never perceived/made attempts address.

The other is that I think moving forward, we are actually going to get either two Malowebi POVs, both which will be convoluted by Malowebi's predicament and how it involves the Outside (where things like time are not experienced as they are strictly in the mortal realm), one being Ciphrang-Malowebi and the other being Malowebi's head or one Malowebi POV, the head, while Ciphrang-Malowebi is experienced by a new Zeumi POV - like that ass Likaro ;). No special knowledge on authorial intent there, just an educated guess.

In fact, Malowebi's probably worth a thread.

"This has already happened" comes into play with Survivor as well, and his revelations about Zero-God. Something about all of time existing at once for the God/s but also linearly for those within it.  White-Luck's POVs, IMO, show us a kind of mortals perspective of the God/s POV. Everything has happened, yet they still flow from one event to the next. From before to after ;).

My point being that I have sincere doubts there is any timetravel, especially for mortals. Like how a massive object can't go the speed of light, a soul encumbered by a mortal body can't go back in time.

Who knows what it possible where the ways of the Outside are concerned?

Quote
EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.

Kellhus has Believe-Kings from all nations. Pretty sure there are references to Ninameshi contingents in The Great Ordeal.

I think Somnambulist was asking pre-Kellian Empire.

Speaking of Meppa, I feel like it's safe to say that neither Moe nor Cnaiur, singularly or as one soul, quantum leaped into another body to form a super Cish.
Thank the Gods we can get past at least this one part of the meta-moenghus crackpottery.

Lmao. Moenghus is life ;)!

And, probably wrong thread: though, I've never bought into "Moenghus pulls all strings," I do still think there is more to Moenghus's thirty years than is addressed in the narrative so far and it was really validating to see Kellhus mention to Proyas that he was wrong about Moenghus and killed his father in error.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 16, 2016, 02:44:18 pm
Quote
EDIT: Also, bonus question: Why is Malowebi trained to pull an "omba" over his face when fighting Cishaurim specifically or maybe sorcerers generally?

Could be that because Zeum and Kian share a border, they may have had clashes, thus the need to train and have equipment available to deal with the Waterbearers.

Also, this made me think.  Is Nilnamesh Fanim?  I think I always assumed it was, but then why would they have the Vokalati?  Not really important, I don't think, it just made me question a long-held assumption.

I'd have to find the exact quote but I believe I recall the Nilnameshi were either simply tributaries to Fanim Kian or recently converted? I believe it comes up nearer the end of TWP in one of the Omnipresent War POVs.

I couldn't find that exactly, but I couldn't find anywhere that said Nilnameshi was Fanim.  In fact, the Glossary only talks about Girgash, having not been conquered, being proselytized and converting to Fanimry.  It is remarked that it is the only nation outside of Kian itself to be Fanim, so that kind of rules out Nilnameshi being so.

The entry for Nilnameshi says they were:

Quote
Nilnamesh—A populous Ketyai nation on the extreme southwest edge of the Three Seas, famed for its ceramics, spices, and stubborn refusal to relinquish its exotic versions of Kiünnat either to Inrithism or to Fanimry.

Kiünnat is Tusk worship from before Inrithism, so they are Men of the Tusk, but not part of the Thousand Temples.

In fact, this search led me to something rather interesting, but that is for later and a different thread.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 18, 2016, 03:10:02 am
Why is Meppa not dead?  Or am I missing some joke?  It seemed like he was de-atomized by Kellhus.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 18, 2016, 10:11:34 am
Why is Meppa not dead?  Or am I missing some joke?  It seemed like he was de-atomized by Kellhus.

The last we see of Meppa is:

Quote
Malowebi's gaze caught upon the visage of a Decapitant, then Meppa sprawled semi-conscious across the wine-dark crimson of carpet.

So, it would seem that Meppa is still alive, although, for how long we don't know...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Madness on May 19, 2016, 12:41:57 am
Kellhus does have two Ciphrang heads ;)?
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 19, 2016, 01:22:34 am
Kellhus does have two Ciphrang heads ;)?

Oh, indeed.  I don't doubt he kept two for reasons.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Madness on May 19, 2016, 01:37:28 am
Though, to be honest, I always liked the Ciphrang-Kosoter conjecture of yesteryear.

But Ciphrang-Meppa 8).
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 19, 2016, 09:35:15 pm
Sorry, double post, but another thought:

I'm fairly sure Meppa is that kid in TTT that Aurang "tells a secret." Wouldn't it be really interesting, since learning that it was the Dunyain and not the Cishaurim or the Psuhke responsible for outing the Skin-Spies, that the Consult might have helped the kid learn the Psuhke so that he'd be another thorn in Kellhus' side later?
I don't think it could be the kid. Meppa seems like he is quite aged.


I know there's a lot of disagreement about this on the forum, but I rank MOST Cishaurim below MOST anagogic sorcerers. I think that is something specific about the Psukhe that the Consult fears. That being said, probably Meppa is stronger than most of the (now dead) Cishaurim primaries.
If that ranking is correct, it seems unlikely SS would have been so decimated.
Even if it is correct, its never the 'most' that matter. I get the feeling that the majority of a school's power is in their sorcerers of rank. Who cares about the peons. The Primaries outmatched the SS's most elite.

You are correct, since most of them are dead it doesn't matter. BUT. I have to say, I disagree with your interpretation. Eleazarus was beating the Hersiarch (sp) until he got attacked by two more primaries. It was three on one.

Eleazarus also killed all three of the Cishaurim that snuck into the SS. It says their wards melt away beneath his dragon head.


Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 20, 2016, 01:24:40 pm
Well, I think the Psûkhe can be more powerful  than it is now, it just hasn't been refined enough yet.  You can find in my "Kiünnat and Zero" thread why I this might be true...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 28, 2016, 03:21:39 pm
Quote
Suddenly he (Kellhus) released her (Esmenet), stood graven in white and shadow as she wailed abject at his feet.

Quote
Both Father and Mother jerked their faces in his (Kelmomas) direction. Father took a single step...

Quote
He glanced back to the dais, saw his father striding out toward the Circumfix Throne, peering at the now hapless assassin - and the ground exploded...

Quote
The penultimate vault, the one framing the missing wall, the one bearing the prayer tower that had been raised upon it, simply dropped. It fell as a cudgel wreathed in streamers of dust, a hammer the size of a bastion, crashing upon the very spot where Father had stood.

Quote
And he (Kelmomas) screamed, shrieked in terror and fury of a child bereft of all he had loved and known.

So... Did we just witness Esmi's death?  She isn't mentioned after they both turn to look at Kelmomas, and a 'bastion' fell on the spot where Kellhus and she were together.  Kelmomas only loved Esmenet, and it says he was bereft of all he had loved and known.  I think Esmenet just died.  :o
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 31, 2016, 10:09:23 am
Quote
And he (Kelmomas) screamed, shrieked in terror and fury of a child bereft of all he had loved and known.

So... Did we just witness Esmi's death?  She isn't mentioned after they both turn to look at Kelmomas, and a 'bastion' fell on the spot where Kellhus and she were together.  Kelmomas only loved Esmenet, and it says he was bereft of all he had loved and known.  I think Esmenet just died.  :o

At first reading I didn't get that sense, but rereading it now, yeah, I actually think you are right.  But if Kellhus was there why didn't he save her?

EDIT: Thinking back (I don't have the book with me, at the moment) Kellhus statement about not saving Serwë seems large here.  He didn't save her, he can't save Esmenet either?
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 31, 2016, 03:04:03 pm
Holy shit. I missed that, but seeing the quotes you have, it does seem like she is dead.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Wilshire on May 31, 2016, 03:24:07 pm
I'd be surprised if she was dead. Kelmomas is not particularly reliable, and I assume that Kellhus teleported away from the danger and took her with him. He seemed to like her more than a Dunyain should.
That whole scene was rather confusing, I'll have to read it more closely once I get the full release.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 31, 2016, 03:25:33 pm
I'd be surprised if she was dead. Kelmomas is not particularly reliable, and I assume that Kellhus teleported away from the danger and took her with him. He seemed to like her more than a Dunyain should.
That whole scene was rather confusing, I'll have to read it more closely once I get the full release.
I'd agree with you, but he seems to teleport after the chunk of rock crashes to the ground.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Wilshire on May 31, 2016, 03:27:11 pm
If she is dead, Kellhus will descend further into madness I think.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 31, 2016, 03:36:43 pm
His comment to her, that he came back to "salvage what he could" I immediately took to mean saving her.  Thinking about it now, I think he meant taking Meppa alive and turning Malowebi into, well, whatever the hell he is now, Ciphrang-Malowebi I guess.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 31, 2016, 03:39:48 pm
His comment to her, that he came back to "salvage what he could" I immediately took to mean saving her.  Thinking about it now, I think he meant taking Meppa alive and turning Malowebi into, well, whatever the hell he is now, Ciphrang-Malowebi I guess.

And to retrieve his little monster.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 31, 2016, 03:43:09 pm
His comment to her, that he came back to "salvage what he could" I immediately took to mean saving her.  Thinking about it now, I think he meant taking Meppa alive and turning Malowebi into, well, whatever the hell he is now, Ciphrang-Malowebi I guess.

And to retrieve his little monster.

Perhaps, but we saw no evidence of that since he leave him in the Throne Room all the same...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 31, 2016, 03:44:03 pm
Did he teleport away?  I don't recall that.  I'll have to look at it again.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 31, 2016, 03:48:33 pm
Did he teleport away?  I don't recall that.  I'll have to look at it again.
I think it's implied that he did, since the next scene is him in the tent with Malowebi. I believe the scene in the throne room ends with Kell sitting on his throne. I no longer have my ARC so I can't check.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Wilshire on May 31, 2016, 03:50:58 pm
Did he teleport away?  I don't recall that.  I'll have to look at it again.
I think it's implied that he did, since the next scene is him in the tent with Malowebi. I believe the scene in the throne room ends with Kell sitting on his throne. I no longer have my ARC so I can't check.
I'm not sure on the timeline of that whole thing, but there is no direct referance to him teleporting. I actually got the feeling that the Malowebi scene took place before the throne room scene. I'm kind of wondering if we were supposed to be wondering if Kellhus survived.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on May 31, 2016, 03:52:47 pm
I'm not sure on the timeline of that whole thing, but there is no direct referance to him teleporting. I actually got the feeling that the Malowebi scene took place before the throne room scene. I'm kind of wondering if we were supposed to be wondering if Kellhus survived.

Yeah, I'm realizing I only implied that from the next scene being the Malowebi one.  Boy, that part is confusing...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 31, 2016, 04:02:44 pm
Did he teleport away?  I don't recall that.  I'll have to look at it again.
I think it's implied that he did, since the next scene is him in the tent with Malowebi. I believe the scene in the throne room ends with Kell sitting on his throne. I no longer have my ARC so I can't check.
I'm not sure on the timeline of that whole thing, but there is no direct referance to him teleporting. I actually got the feeling that the Malowebi scene took place before the throne room scene. I'm kind of wondering if we were supposed to be wondering if Kellhus survived.
I think Malowebi happened after. Kell still had both Decapitants on his belt when Esmi saw him.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on May 31, 2016, 04:11:36 pm
Did he teleport away?  I don't recall that.  I'll have to look at it again.
I think it's implied that he did, since the next scene is him in the tent with Malowebi. I believe the scene in the throne room ends with Kell sitting on his throne. I no longer have my ARC so I can't check.
I'm not sure on the timeline of that whole thing, but there is no direct referance to him teleporting. I actually got the feeling that the Malowebi scene took place before the throne room scene. I'm kind of wondering if we were supposed to be wondering if Kellhus survived.
I think Malowebi happened after. Kell still had both Decapitants on his belt when Esmi saw him.

That's a good point.  I think that chapter bounces around.  However, I have some minor doubts.  IMO, the Decapitant would probably have had to have been attached pretty much right away, right?  I mean, you wouldn't let a body bleed out from being decapitated, then go back later and attach a demon head.  Would you?  Seems like the body would still need it's blood to function, but hell, maybe not with a demon head grafted onto it.

Also, Kellhus appears in Fanayal's camp only after the first earthquake, not after the second.  Again, why would he show up in camp, thrash everyone, teleport to the palace, yada yada, then teleport back to the camp to attach the demon head?  Unless the body needed time to exsanguinate first.  Circuitous thoughts! ah!
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on May 31, 2016, 09:11:49 pm
Did he teleport away?  I don't recall that.  I'll have to look at it again.
I think it's implied that he did, since the next scene is him in the tent with Malowebi. I believe the scene in the throne room ends with Kell sitting on his throne. I no longer have my ARC so I can't check.
I'm not sure on the timeline of that whole thing, but there is no direct referance to him teleporting. I actually got the feeling that the Malowebi scene took place before the throne room scene. I'm kind of wondering if we were supposed to be wondering if Kellhus survived.
I think Malowebi happened after. Kell still had both Decapitants on his belt when Esmi saw him.

That's a good point.  I think that chapter bounces around.  However, I have some minor doubts.  IMO, the Decapitant would probably have had to have been attached pretty much right away, right?  I mean, you wouldn't let a body bleed out from being decapitated, then go back later and attach a demon head.  Would you?  Seems like the body would still need it's blood to function, but hell, maybe not with a demon head grafted onto it.

Also, Kellhus appears in Fanayal's camp only after the first earthquake, not after the second.  Again, why would he show up in camp, thrash everyone, teleport to the palace, yada yada, then teleport back to the camp to attach the demon head?  Unless the body needed time to exsanguinate first.  Circuitous thoughts! ah!
When I did my second read, I decided that he didn't kill Malowebi immediately. It says the sword came down, but it could have been the pommel of the sword to knock him out instead of the blade to kill him. Then Kell transported to the throne room because he was short on time. Then back to make a demon. That's the only thing that makes sense to me with the way it's written right now.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Madness on June 02, 2016, 03:02:00 am
Sorry, double post, but another thought:

I'm fairly sure Meppa is that kid in TTT that Aurang "tells a secret." Wouldn't it be really interesting, since learning that it was the Dunyain and not the Cishaurim or the Psuhke responsible for outing the Skin-Spies, that the Consult might have helped the kid learn the Psuhke so that he'd be another thorn in Kellhus' side later?
I don't think it could be the kid. Meppa seems like he is quite aged.

I'll probably comment more in profgrape's other thread but water is passion, passion is stress, stress prematurely ages, etc, etc ;).

So... Did we just witness Esmi's death?  She isn't mentioned after they both turn to look at Kelmomas, and a 'bastion' fell on the spot where Kellhus and she were together.  Kelmomas only loved Esmenet, and it says he was bereft of all he had loved and known.  I think Esmenet just died.  :o

By my flerwed reading, I suspect that Kelmomas is so upset because he thought he was supposed to help the Warrior kill Kellhus and he inadvertently stops that from happening.

Also, Bakker has said previously that Achamian and Esmenet interact again - thus, killing all such debate about their fates until they do so. I'll have to dig for that quote, though.

His comment to her, that he came back to "salvage what he could" I immediately took to mean saving her.  Thinking about it now, I think he meant taking Meppa alive and turning Malowebi into, well, whatever the hell he is now, Ciphrang-Malowebi I guess.

And to retrieve his little monster.

+1 both those, though I don't discount that "salvage what he could" includes saving Esmenet, in addition to Meppa/Ciphrang-Malowebi.

Did he teleport away?  I don't recall that.  I'll have to look at it again.
I think it's implied that he did, since the next scene is him in the tent with Malowebi. I believe the scene in the throne room ends with Kell sitting on his throne. I no longer have my ARC so I can't check.
I'm not sure on the timeline of that whole thing, but there is no direct referance to him teleporting. I actually got the feeling that the Malowebi scene took place before the throne room scene. I'm kind of wondering if we were supposed to be wondering if Kellhus survived.
I think Malowebi happened after. Kell still had both Decapitants on his belt when Esmi saw him.

That's a good point.  I think that chapter bounces around.  However, I have some minor doubts.  IMO, the Decapitant would probably have had to have been attached pretty much right away, right?  I mean, you wouldn't let a body bleed out from being decapitated, then go back later and attach a demon head.  Would you?  Seems like the body would still need it's blood to function, but hell, maybe not with a demon head grafted onto it.

Also, Kellhus appears in Fanayal's camp only after the first earthquake, not after the second.  Again, why would he show up in camp, thrash everyone, teleport to the palace, yada yada, then teleport back to the camp to attach the demon head?  Unless the body needed time to exsanguinate first.  Circuitous thoughts! ah!

When I did my second read, I decided that he didn't kill Malowebi immediately. It says the sword came down, but it could have been the pommel of the sword to knock him out instead of the blade to kill him. Then Kell transported to the throne room because he was short on time. Then back to make a demon. That's the only thing that makes sense to me with the way it's written right now.

Sadly, I think all of this is a result of writerly and oversight error :(.

I second HP's thought that it would be real nice if Overlook/Bakker could source this ARC discussion and amend the canon artifact accordingly.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: H on June 02, 2016, 01:30:41 pm
As it's written though, I don't see where Esmenet is, except under the falling vault.  Granted, we don't see her after it's said that Kel shouts to them and Kellhus takes a step, but that is all we get, except seeing Kellhus walking alone toward the throne.  It's said the vault falls where he was, which would be where Esmenet was too, but again, it is unclear where she was at that point.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Somnambulist on June 02, 2016, 02:13:05 pm
To be clear, when I said 'retrieve his little monster' I meant Kelmomas.  As far as Kellhus is either aware or unaware of, imo, most of his children are in mortal danger or are already dead.  Kayutas is with the GO, likely to fail at Golgotterath.  Serwa is in Ishterebinth, likely to die fighting the Nonmen allied with Golgotterath.  Thelli is no use to him, really, and is dead anyway.  Inrilatas, again no practical use and dead.  Samarmas, no use, dead.  Kelmomas is, to all outward appearances, the only Anasurimbor child likely to survive current events.  Along with saving Esmi (maybe), Kelmomas had to be a reason to return.

While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on June 02, 2016, 03:53:06 pm

While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Wow! I totally missed that. I'd guess one of the two:
1) Samarmas can take control, at least to some degree, of the body they share and hurt Kelmomas--which would appear to be self-hurt from the outside. The problem I see with this is that Kel experiences it as a bite on the neck, which isn't impossible, and I don't think Kel would interpret a scratch (which is possible)) as a bite...

Which leads to 2) perhaps this is some manifestation of Ajokli, in which case, the voice Kel hears is actually Ajokli. But IIRC he has been hearing the voice since long before the sacrificed the beetle.

As it's written though, I don't see where Esmenet is, except under the falling vault.  Granted, we don't see her after it's said that Kel shouts to them and Kellhus takes a step, but that is all we get, except seeing Kellhus walking alone toward the throne.  It's said the vault falls where he was, which would be where Esmenet was too, but again, it is unclear where she was at that point.
I totally agree. But it makes more sense for the story arc for them to meet up again at some point.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: profgrape on June 02, 2016, 04:01:01 pm
While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

I've gone back and forth.  Currently, I'm leaning toward the former.  It seems like with Kelmomas, we're getting a POV from a Dunyain "defective"; he has the Strength but also suffers from mental illness.  I suspect that Kellhus would have done away with the kid had he noticed what was happen.  Or maybe he did but didn't act because of Esme.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Madness on June 03, 2016, 03:24:42 am
To be clear, when I said 'retrieve his little monster' I meant Kelmomas.

I thought you were clear :).


While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Wow! I totally missed that. I'd guess one of the two:
1) Samarmas can take control, at least to some degree, of the body they share and hurt Kelmomas--which would appear to be self-hurt from the outside. The problem I see with this is that Kel experiences it as a bite on the neck, which isn't impossible, and I don't think Kel would interpret a scratch (which is possible)) as a bite...

Which leads to 2) perhaps this is some manifestation of Ajokli, in which case, the voice Kel hears is actually Ajokli. But IIRC he has been hearing the voice since long before the sacrificed the beetle.

As it's written though, I don't see where Esmenet is, except under the falling vault.  Granted, we don't see her after it's said that Kel shouts to them and Kellhus takes a step, but that is all we get, except seeing Kellhus walking alone toward the throne.  It's said the vault falls where he was, which would be where Esmenet was too, but again, it is unclear where she was at that point.
I totally agree. But it makes more sense for the story arc for them to meet up again at some point.

While on the subject of Kelmomas, anyone else think this is super weird?  TGO ARC, pg. 452

Quote
Ruined! Samarmas screamed, assailed him, biting deep into his neck before vanishing into his own shadow palace, the hollow bones of the boy's own thought.  Kelmomas scrunched the collar of his tunic – the one he had donned after his altercation with Theliopa – under his jaw and chin to staunch the blood.
He liked to remind him from time to time, his twin.
Remind him what it had been like before.

So... this raises a couple of theories to me.  One, Kel (and really all Anasurimbor) suffers from some form of mental illness, some kind of MPD.  Maybe he hurt himself, and in his illness called the hurter Samarmas.

Or two, Samarmas is an actual entity within Kel that can manifest and interact with the 'real' world.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

I've gone back and forth.  Currently, I'm leaning toward the former.  It seems like with Kelmomas, we're getting a POV from a Dunyain "defective"; he has the Strength but also suffers from mental illness.  I suspect that Kellhus would have done away with the kid had he noticed what was happen.  Or maybe he did but didn't act because of Esme.

Yeah, Som, I share your intrigue here.

I don't have any decent rationale for the biting though...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Wic on June 17, 2016, 03:37:10 am
Fun little aside as I was rummaging through WLW, from chapter 5:
Quote from: Theliopa
I'm not sure surprise-surprise is a passion I can feel, Mother.
TGO, chapter 16, emphasis mine:
Quote
Theliopa stumbled, looked up in pallid alarm, then vanished in slumping shadows of stone brick debris.
A part of me hopes that deep down, she was pleased to put that question to rest.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Blackstone on June 17, 2016, 05:11:14 pm
Fun little aside as I was rummaging through WLW, from chapter 5:
Quote from: Theliopa
I'm not sure surprise-surprise is a passion I can feel, Mother.
TGO, chapter 16, emphasis mine:
Quote
Theliopa stumbled, looked up in pallid alarm, then vanished in slumping shadows of stone brick debris.
A part of me hopes that deep down, she was pleased to put that question to rest.
Poor Theli.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Walter on June 17, 2016, 08:14:14 pm
"Just someone who was hear when it happened."

-shudder.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: locke on June 19, 2016, 08:29:18 am
it's 1:29am, I haven't the time to read the whole thread yet.

Kellhus v Meppa was pretty awesome.

But there's a niggling thing about it I don't like.

It feels like fan-service.

I wonder if in an earlier draft Esmenet really did kill Meppa.

But that agency was taken away from her to give fans more Kellhus kicking ass moments? To forestall decades of "who wins in a fight type debates."

I got a little bit of the same vibe off the clumsy line of Kellhus thinking, "I'm more powerful than Titirga." It sounds more like answering fan questions than a natural thought progression.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Madness on June 19, 2016, 11:35:28 am
It feels like fan-service.

I'm interested in your thoughts rereading the thread, locke. The consensus and debate seem to revolve around why did Kellhus keep Meppa around at all, despite the limited screen-time of Fanayal, Meppa, and Psatma in TAE, who are otherwise dead.

I got a little bit of the same vibe off the clumsy line of Kellhus thinking, "I'm more powerful than Titirga." It sounds more like answering fan questions than a natural thought progression.

Hmm...

It's an interesting crux. Bakker has... six or seven long time draft readers, one of whom I'm fairly sure has been Eichorn since TDTCB. I don't know how closely any of them pay attention to fan continuity - certainly not with the scrutiny that those debating online do.

I thought the whole draft was publishable and it's been really enlightening regarding my own (lack of) writing practice to perceive the differences between the draft and the ARC. Specifically, in that section of the draft, I found the limited peripheral reference to Titirga appealing, which is obviously more overt now. Probably, I would assume, that the other long-time draft readers or his agent made suggestions about that portion being vague to newcomers.

We're like "damn, you could have left that at one pronoun for that character, we have a story already" and newcomers are like "who the fuck is Titirga?" after a full two pages of exposition or whichever.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: locke on June 21, 2016, 05:01:59 am
the halos are not sorcerous in nature.

If they were, Malowebi would not have noted that the halos are ABSENT any _mark_. A glamour produced by Kellhus would leave an obvious mark of sorcery giving the game away, for the same reason that skin spies are not glamoured and presumed to be the work of the cishaurim.

That probably indicates they are not the light of delusion.

Given the 1.4 iteration of the Celmomian prophecy in this book, the halos are probably divine in origin as they indicate that Kellhus is "god entangled" with the god that speaks in the vision (Ajokli, Gilgaol, or Tsurumah). This is why they are not marked. they're like sorweel's storks.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: profgrape on June 21, 2016, 02:21:14 pm
the halos are not sorcerous in nature.

If they were, Malowebi would not have noted that the halos are ABSENT any _mark_. A glamour produced by Kellhus would leave an obvious mark of sorcery giving the game away, for the same reason that skin spies are not glamoured and presumed to be the work of the cishaurim.

That probably indicates they are not the light of delusion.

Given the 1.4 iteration of the Celmomian prophecy in this book, the halos are probably divine in origin as they indicate that Kellhus is "god entangled" with the god that speaks in the vision (Ajokli, Gilgaol, or Tsurumah). This is why they are not marked. they're like sorweel's storks.

Love the term "god entangled", locke.  That state seems perplex Kellhus, even after years of pondering...
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: locke on June 21, 2016, 04:37:12 pm
the halos are not sorcerous in nature.

If they were, Malowebi would not have noted that the halos are ABSENT any _mark_. A glamour produced by Kellhus would leave an obvious mark of sorcery giving the game away, for the same reason that skin spies are not glamoured and presumed to be the work of the cishaurim.

That probably indicates they are not the light of delusion.

Given the 1.4 iteration of the Celmomian prophecy in this book, the halos are probably divine in origin as they indicate that Kellhus is "god entangled" with the god that speaks in the vision (Ajokli, Gilgaol, or Tsurumah). This is why they are not marked. they're like sorweel's storks.

Love the term "god entangled", locke.  That state seems perplex Kellhus, even after years of pondering...
straight out of the book, sorweel even has a new word for the phrase god entangled, but I couldn't remember it.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: locke on June 21, 2016, 07:49:52 pm
fuck me I think I figured out the haloed hands on the skin spy.

Kellhus is God entangled, which generates the halos.

The Gods cannot perceive the skin spies, unlike sranc which have no consciousness in their brains, the skin spies are "keepers of the inverse fire" and for unknown reasons this makes the gods blind to them.

But what happens when the Gods encounter a skin spy via the perception of other people they are not blind to?

The gods see the person the skin spy is imitating. The gods then automatically "fill in the blank" that the thing they cannot perceive but now perceive via someone they can perceive is in fact obviously of course the thing the person they perceive is perceiving.

In other words, because Serwe can see the-thing-called-kellhus, the gods can see it. The gods can't see it otherwise. But when the gods see the thing-called-kellhus via serwe they suffer an inner contradiction. They know they can perceive kellhus. they know serwe is currently perceiving him, and they know they cannot be wrong. So therefore of course the thing-called-kellhus must be kellhus.

And as a result, halos appear on the skin spy while it is being perceived by serwe, because of the limits of the gods comprehension and their inability to accept they may be in error.

so for a brief moment, the skin spy is also god entangled, as kellhus is, because the gods are idiots.
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: profgrape on June 22, 2016, 12:04:33 am
Hot damn, Locke.  That is freaking brilliant.

The Gods can only see the work of the Consult via the belief-tainted perspectives of Men. 
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Wic on June 22, 2016, 12:18:29 am
Holy shit, locke.

ETA: Ok, so we have Serwe, who believes, even when it's a skinspy, and Malowebi, who (we assume) does not believe.

(also, does anyone know when Sorweel first sees them?  Because the halos aren't described the first time he encounters Kell.)

Taking in what locke said, what triggered this belief from the Outside? Serwe's pure innocence?
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: locke on June 24, 2016, 11:40:27 pm
the gods can't conceive of skin spies existing, but can conceive of humans existing.

This is actually probably why skin spies were invented, not to spy on the mandate, but to give the consult agents invisible to the gods and thus be able to thwart the white luck and other manifestations of the will of the gods (or subvert or adopt it to their own ends).

***
speaking of, the interaction of Samarmus, Inrilitus, Maithanet, Kelmomas, Esmenet and Theliopa is crucial to crafting an outcome wherein the white luck warrior is "surprised" by Kelmomas, thus thwarting the White Luck's assassination of Kellhus.

Did Kellhus sacrifice three of his children, and craft Kelmomas into a monster in order to save Esmenet?
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: MSJ on June 24, 2016, 11:44:10 pm
the gods can't conceive of skin spies existing, but can conceive of humans existing.

If so, how does that fit into your theory on the Haloes? That Skin-Spy would still need a soul for it to be seen by the Gods and be God-entangled.....
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: locke on June 24, 2016, 11:49:40 pm
That is the theory, the gods can't conceive being wrong, so the halos get applied to the thing when perception exposes a dissonance
Title: Re: Momemn
Post by: Triskele on June 25, 2016, 03:19:18 am
That is the theory, the gods can't conceive being wrong, so the halos get applied to the thing when perception exposes a dissonance

Seems plausible given that we know that the Gods have perception issues re: the No-God.