The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: Madness on May 12, 2016, 01:54:40 am

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Madness on May 12, 2016, 01:54:40 am
Fleeing the burning forest surrounding Sauglish and the dead remains of the Skin Eaters and the Nonman King Nil'giccas, Achamian and Mimara find the ruins of Ishual, birthplace of Anasurimbor Kellhus...
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:21:46 am
Cuts and cuts and cuts and cuts and cuts and cuts
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:22:25 am
No-God = Zero-God = Yatwer, amirite???
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 10:19:51 am
No-God = Zero-God = Yatwer, amirite???

I don't know that I'd buy that...

I need to reread that section, but it certainly didn't appear to me that No-God=Zero-God.

No-God is inverse God.

Zero-God is the God of everything (and possibly nothing), aka The Absolute.

Yatwer, well, I don't think she can see either of those actually.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:15:09 pm
Yatwer isn't another fragment, she's the absence that makes the fragments possible--the Nonmen have been worshipping her the whole time!!!

For real though, Mimara is changing, and that is disturbing.  If there is a soul in that fancy shirt she's wearing, well that won't be good.  Sorweel all over again.

Ok, ok, so Achamian is definitely, tragically, ironically, going to be delivering the No-God (Mimara) right to the Consult.

Mimara will see Aurang/Aurax--they will be wreathed in glory.

The nameless Dunyain kid is going to be fucknuts with the psukhe.  Pure Dunyain blood plus emotions!!!  That kid vs Kelmomas in some kind of 10 round fight.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Somnambulist on May 12, 2016, 03:16:17 pm
That kid vs Kelmomas in some kind of 10 round fight.

This!  This is what I'm waiting for.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 03:28:55 pm
For real though, Mimara is changing, and that is disturbing.  If there is a soul in that fancy shirt she's wearing, well that won't be good.  Sorweel all over again.

Well, Akka does cryptically say something like, "there was a reason this was all in the Coffers."  I'm looking for the quote now, but I can't find it right now...
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:29:37 pm
For real though, Mimara is changing, and that is disturbing.  If there is a soul in that fancy shirt she's wearing, well that won't be good.  Sorweel all over again.

Well, Akka does cryptically say something like, "there was a reason this was all in the Coffers."  I'm looking for the quote now, but I can't find it right now...

and that knife!  cutting chorae!!!  wtf!
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 05:14:30 pm
Got to wonder about the bit about Dunyain who were sent out and didn't return.  Are they still roaming (like Sarl) or did Kellhus or The Consult get them? 

Think if the Consult caught one, it was one of the few, they compulsed it to learn sorcery, will use it against Kellhus.  Aurang can't meta-gnosis but he can make a puppet do it!

It seemed like Koringhus was a little on the young side to be breeding already, no?  Maybe that's no big deal for the Dunyain.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 05:21:02 pm
Breeding young means quicker generations, more mutation, faster results, perhaps?
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 07:22:22 pm
For real though, Mimara is changing, and that is disturbing.  If there is a soul in that fancy shirt she's wearing, well that won't be good.  Sorweel all over again.

Well, Akka does cryptically say something like, "there was a reason this was all in the Coffers."  I'm looking for the quote now, but I can't find it right now...

and that knife!  cutting chorae!!!  wtf!

How do you think Mimara is changing?

Got to wonder about the bit about Dunyain who were sent out and didn't return.  Are they still roaming (like Sarl) or did Kellhus or The Consult get them? 

Think if the Consult caught one, it was one of the few, they compulsed it to learn sorcery, will use it against Kellhus.  Aurang can't meta-gnosis but he can make a puppet do it!

It seemed like Koringhus was a little on the young side to be breeding already, no?  Maybe that's no big deal for the Dunyain.

If the Consult wanted a Dunyain, they could have captured one when they leveled Ishual.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Somnambulist on May 12, 2016, 08:31:49 pm
Got to wonder about the bit about Dunyain who were sent out and didn't return.  Are they still roaming (like Sarl) or did Kellhus or The Consult get them? 

Think if the Consult caught one, it was one of the few, they compulsed it to learn sorcery, will use it against Kellhus.  Aurang can't meta-gnosis but he can make a puppet do it!

It seemed like Koringhus was a little on the young side to be breeding already, no?  Maybe that's no big deal for the Dunyain.

My take on that was he was remembering Moenghus and Kellhus (those who went out and didn't return), and the suicides were the ones Moe contacted.  I believe he was referencing that series of events.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Madness on May 14, 2016, 02:19:41 pm
Lol - MG, right back at it again with the insane speculations ;).

That kid vs Kelmomas in some kind of 10 round fight.

This!  This is what I'm waiting for.

If MG is right and there is a gap in between TAE and TSTSNBN, I imagine Kelmomas and The Boy will be some of our principals. If they meet in TUC-proper, I'm going to guess that Kelmomas is probably going to hate The Boy.

For real though, Mimara is changing, and that is disturbing.  If there is a soul in that fancy shirt she's wearing, well that won't be good.  Sorweel all over again.

Well, Akka does cryptically say something like, "there was a reason this was all in the Coffers."  I'm looking for the quote now, but I can't find it right now...

and that knife!  cutting chorae!!!  wtf!

Yeah - that quote, H, I believe refers to the knife after Achamian has seen The Boy scrape at the Chorae with it. We know Emilidis wrought only the "best of" sorcerous objects.

As per the nimil mail Mimara is wearing, we'd previously maintained to separate categories of sorcerous objects, "Weapons of Animata" and "Sorcerous Objects." The former requiring a soul, the latter requiring only the inscription of sorcery. I don't share MG's opinion that Mimara is changing as of the result of nimil mail version of the Amiolas - she's just actually a True Prophet of Earwa, unlike Kellhus, and I'm so excited for her newfound self-assurance.

Lol - I mentioned this to Wilshire but in one of the Casts the members discussing joke about someone snorting Qirri and they laugh and I laugh. Jokes.

I have more disordered fractions with thoughts but I'll need to muse longer and let this thread take some more shape.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: H on May 16, 2016, 12:10:26 pm
Yeah - that quote, H, I believe refers to the knife after Achamian has seen The Boy scrape at the Chorae with it. We know Emilidis wrought only the "best of" sorcerous objects.

Yeah, I found the quote, but lost it again, haha.

My point was that knife is going to kill someone.  Someone who uses a Chorae and think they can't be hurt, since it can somehow remain ensorcelled even in the face of the Aporos...
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Wilshire on May 16, 2016, 11:12:48 pm
No-God = Zero-God = Yatwer, amirite???
I really don't think so. Something that comes even before Her.
I'll say it now, TZG is not the NG. The names are a red-herring.

Zero-God is the God of everything (and possibly nothing), aka The Absolute.
TZG is only The Absolute because It comes before everything. If something comes before It, then that It because the new Absolute, the new breath-that-is-ground. There can be but one self-moving soul. TZG as we know it could still, then, be the god of everything, but not be the Absolute.

Breeding young means quicker generations, more mutation, faster results, perhaps?
Brings up Whale-Mothers. Why would men be selected for physical and mental acuity and women selected for being giant whales? The only reason I can come up with is because the Dunyain needed to breed as much and as frequently as possible. Shorter generations means less time to breed the intellectual acuity to become a self moving soul. This can be achieved in several ways:
Breeding at younger ages. The early a woman can bare children, the more children she can have.
The older she can still bare viable children, the she can have total in her lifetime.
Shorter time period between birth and the next pregnancy
Shorter time to reach full term baby. I'm not sure the mother affects this, but I'm guessing a healthy momma that gives neutrants to babies more quickly means the baby grows faster.

These things might have selected for large women with wider hips, lead to retaining more fat and nutrient stores, and potentially selected against intellect.
Sorry if my misunderstanding of biology and pregnancy are grossly inadequate.

Yeah - that quote, H, I believe refers to the knife after Achamian has seen The Boy scrape at the Chorae with it. We know Emilidis wrought only the "best of" sorcerous objects.

Yeah, I found the quote, but lost it again, haha.

My point was that knife is going to kill someone.  Someone who uses a Chorae and think they can't be hurt, since it can somehow remain ensorcelled even in the face of the Aporos...
We know so little about the sorcerous objects. Could be that they are just immune to the chorae because of the inscription. Recall the  Wathi Doll breaking the circle. When the words are broken, the circle loses the spell. A chorae does not remove the inscription, so the blade should, imo, remain ensorcelled after a chorae is removed. Does the blade dim when the chorae is brought to it? If so, that confirms my suspicion, which is that the chorae only affects the object when touching, but the inscription remains and then 'reactivates' the sorcery written into it once the chorae is removed.

On chorae, Esmi mention she sleeps under a dome of chorae. So, there is precedence now for chorae in objects, even large ones (Mr.Tall also have chorae armor, but I assume the room Esmi was in was even larger than that).
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: H on May 17, 2016, 07:30:39 pm
So, I've been thinking about this and Koringhus shows us two things, which I am not sure if they are meant to parallel Kellhus or not: compassion, in saving the boy when he knew it made no sense since he was a defective, and madness, in jumping off the cliff.

Is this meant to elicit the recognition of such in Kellhus?  Or a red-herring?
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Wilshire on May 17, 2016, 08:21:28 pm
Interesting catch.

A flaw in the Anasurimbor gene pool they could never breed out - probably because there's something extraordinary in their genes that they had to continue breeding in.

What will Kellhus' Leap be... Keep the qirri away from him
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Madness on May 19, 2016, 12:22:44 am
Lol - so hesitant to use the draft as evidence. I'm so excited for Somnambulist and I because we can have another novel experience with TGO :).

But... Kellhus and Proyas were sharing Chanv-laced Anpoi (which I'm fairly sure is that Conriyan fish-liquor that Achamian drinks the night he and Serwe...)
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Wilshire on May 19, 2016, 01:06:18 am
Lol - so hesitant to use the draft as evidence. I'm so excited for Somnambulist and I because we can have another novel experience with TGO :).

But... Kellhus and Proyas were sharing Chanv-laced Anpoi (which I'm fairly sure is that Conriyan fish-liquor that Achamian drinks the night he and Serwe...)
Explicitly Kellhus pours Proyas a glass of chanv-laced anpoi. Implicitly they are sharing it, but Kellhus does not drink it on-screen. A strange one-liner to be sure.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Madness on May 19, 2016, 01:31:29 am
Damnit.

Well, perhaps, I'll find it and share later but there's a definitely a line in the draft about Kellhus drinking the same Anpoi.

EDIT: I'm going to have to pull back because I don't want to inadvertently give things away in the differences.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: H on May 19, 2016, 10:27:01 am
Damnit.

Well, perhaps, I'll find it and share later but there's a definitely a line in the draft about Kellhus drinking the same Anpoi.

EDIT: I'm going to have to pull back because I don't want to inadvertently give things away in the differences.

It's in the ARC too:

Quote
Proyas glared as a wounded child over the edge of the bowl as he drank.  Kellhus felt the concoction bloom warm and sweet over his own tongue and throat.

Unless this is saying that Proyas drank it and Kellhus felt it?

EDIT: oh and anpoi is made from peaches not from fish,  ;)
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Blackstone on May 19, 2016, 10:38:19 pm
Damnit.

Well, perhaps, I'll find it and share later but there's a definitely a line in the draft about Kellhus drinking the same Anpoi.

EDIT: I'm going to have to pull back because I don't want to inadvertently give things away in the differences.

It's in the ARC too:

Quote
Proyas glared as a wounded child over the edge of the bowl as he drank.  Kellhus felt the concoction bloom warm and sweet over his own tongue and throat.

Unless this is saying that Proyas drank it and Kellhus felt it?

EDIT: oh and anpoi is made from peaches not from fish,  ;)

Is chanv-laced anpoi the ruffies of Earwa?

I thought that was a really disturbing section until I realized Kellhus was drinking it too. I assume it takes addiction and massive usage before the negative effects like translucent skin begin. I find it interesting that Kellhus is drinking it. although it gives sharper mental abilities, I just assumed Kellhus would have a disdain for drugs. There I go trying to impose earth beliefs on Earwa :)
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Wilshire on May 20, 2016, 06:47:16 pm
I'm not at all surprised he's drinking it. Living longer and being 'smarter' seems like two very relevant things for Kellhus.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Madness on May 22, 2016, 12:29:17 am
Well, we can be certain he wouldn't use it without first understanding it.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Blackstone on May 25, 2016, 07:33:23 pm
Back to the Demua Mountains...

Did anyone else notice that when the Serwe-skin-job calls out to the boy she does it in Dunyainic? It specifically says Dunyainic and not Kuniuric. I know the two languages are related, but Bakker went through the trouble of mapping out the evolution of languages in Earwa, and I think this could be significant--though I'll admit it may be a glitch in the Matrix, I don't think it is, because in earlier sections it differentiates between what Akka speaks and what the boy and Koringhus speak.

So if this is the case, it means the Consult has Dunyain captives or Dunyain allies.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: H on May 25, 2016, 07:53:49 pm
So if this is the case, it means the Consult has Dunyain captives or Dunyain allies.

Well, there is a third option, which is that the Consult had skin-spys learn to imitate Dunyain, perhaps in an effort to lure the ones in the TTH to come out, or show themselves.  I guess that still does mean they had some as captives though.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Blackstone on May 25, 2016, 09:19:17 pm
So if this is the case, it means the Consult has Dunyain captives or Dunyain allies.

Well, there is a third option, which is that the Consult had skin-spys learn to imitate Dunyain, perhaps in an effort to lure the ones in the TTH to come out, or show themselves.  I guess that still does mean they had some as captives though.
Indeed. Someone would have to teach the skin spy to speak Dunyainic.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: Wilshire on May 26, 2016, 09:58:43 pm
Going on bloodline connections for dreams, I'm guessing an elderly Dunyain, potentially an Anasurimbor, that is in the final sequence.

Dunyainic is a good catch.
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: H on May 31, 2016, 11:35:31 am
Going on bloodline connections for dreams, I'm guessing an elderly Dunyain, potentially an Anasurimbor, that is in the final sequence.

Dunyainic is a good catch.

That is interesting, because now I am thinking about what it takes to really get the No-God going.  I couldn't just be a critical mass of souls, because otherwise, it would be super easy to fire it back up.

No, what is it that Nau-CayĆ»ti had that was instrumental in allowing them to raise the No-God? (Presuming, of course, that this (he?) is indeed what they needed, which seems circumstantially true.)  What if it needs a true self-moving soul to get it running?  And that the Consult is doing is dumping soul after soul into it (it, what is it?  I am still kind of buying my Inverse Fire-as a power source, of sorts, theory, perhaps?) in the hopes that one is really a self-moving soul and so jump-starts the No-God?
Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: locke on June 24, 2016, 05:30:55 pm
No-God = Zero-God = Yatwer, amirite???

No.

I think it is more like the Zero-God = The Absolute.

Thus, Koringhus grasped the Absolute.

The Absolute is that which comes before everything, the sum of all consciousness.

The No-God is the antithesis of the Absolute.

The No-God is the sum of all non-consciousness.


Title: Re: Ishual/The Demua Mountains
Post by: locke on June 24, 2016, 05:46:53 pm
Sorry if my misunderstanding of biology and pregnancy are grossly inadequate.

Pregnancy is not a one-way street, basically, you don't just get to input sperm and take out baby and the mother is irrelevant other than a tank. You can't increase viability while decreasing physical activity. You can't increase viability while eliminating language. you can't increase viability while keeping women in cortisol state of eternal stress. you can't increase viability when eliminating vitamin D. and on and on and on and on and on. and without even touching on the new discoveries of the profound feedback loops (negative and positive) that epigentics is unraveling.

You can certainly breed for "breeding" characteristics, like how the dunyain have obviously bred to select for multiples, but this will also simultaneously breed for smaller progeny.  Given the immense nutritional deficiencies of what we know of the dunyain dietary, halflings is what they should probably be at this point.

 Basically the dunyain use methods guaranteed to make conception extremely unlikely, to guarantee high rates of still births and miscarriages while somehow breeding male and female characteristics into vastly different outdomes in spite of all the interdependent variables that a common breeding stock would necessitate.