The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: Madness on May 12, 2016, 02:00:34 am

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on May 12, 2016, 02:00:34 am
The Aspect-Emperor honours the Nonman Niom sending a son, Moenghus, a daughter, Serwa, and an enemy, the young Horse-King Sorweel, to their mountain become Mansion in the hopes that if the Ordeal conquers Dagliash, the Nonman will lend Nimil and Voice to their mannish cause...
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 10:16:11 am
The thing is, did he actually expect it to succeed?  Of course I forgot my ARC at home, so I can't add quotes at the moment, but doesn't Kellhus basically say to Serwa that whole Niom is a fraud?  Just a way to get agents into Ishterebinth?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on May 12, 2016, 01:50:28 pm
I think it was kind of like "If it works out then great.  If it doesn't, tear them a new one."  I'm obviously paraphrasing here.  Kellhus would never use a drab word like 'great.'
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 02:45:40 pm
I can't give an exact quote, but when Serwa is being tortured, she is thinking back to a conversation with her father, and she asks, "and if Ishterebinth has gone over to the Consult?" That question leads me to believe that Kellhus is not sure. So I suppose this is a gambit on his part.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 02:49:30 pm
I think it was kind of like "If it works out then great.  If it doesn't, tear them a new one."  I'm obviously paraphrasing here.  Kellhus would never use a drab word like 'great.'

Yeah, he says:

Quote
"And if Ishterebinth has fallen to the Consult?  What then, Father?"
A grave look.
"You are my daughter, Serwa," Anasûrimbor Kellhus replied. "Show them my portion."
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:09:20 pm
Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on May 12, 2016, 03:12:59 pm
I think there's a Ride of the Valkyries moment coming in TUC.  Serwa, Sorweel, the Tall, The Most Ancient Warrior....  the remnants of Istherebinth (with an army of Emwama) come charging against the Consult near the end.  Brutal.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 03:16:38 pm
Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.

I think all three of them are going to be alive, I didn't get the sense that they were pulling the whole place down, per se.  Moe will be crazy like daddy now though.  Serwa is going to be even more staunch that Kellhus knew and was right the whole time.  Sorweel, well, I don't know...
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:21:34 pm
Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.

I think all three of them are going to be alive, I didn't get the sense that they were pulling the whole place down, per se.  Moe will be crazy like daddy now though.  Serwa is going to be even more staunch that Kellhus knew and was right the whole time.  Sorweel, well, I don't know...

I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 03:43:48 pm
I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!

I really hope Oinaral isn't dead, but I have a feeling he might be...
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:45:35 pm
I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!

I really hope Oinaral isn't dead, but I have a feeling he might be...

I wonder if what made Cujara Cinmoi so bad ass was that he was both Tall and Quya?

Btw, the scale of the Tall made me go back and think.  The Heron Spear might be really fucking big.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 04:13:11 pm
I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!

I really hope Oinaral isn't dead, but I have a feeling he might be...

I wonder if what made Cujara Cinmoi so bad ass was that he was both Tall and Quya?

Btw, the scale of the Tall made me go back and think.  The Heron Spear might be really fucking big.

I always did think the Heron Spear was more like a recoilless rifle than an actual spear.

How do we know that Cu'jara was a Quya though?  I don't recall that.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 04:34:22 pm
I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!

I really hope Oinaral isn't dead, but I have a feeling he might be...

I wonder if what made Cujara Cinmoi so bad ass was that he was both Tall and Quya?

Btw, the scale of the Tall made me go back and think.  The Heron Spear might be really fucking big.

I always did think the Heron Spear was more like a recoilless rifle than an actual spear.

How do we know that Cu'jara was a Quya though?  I don't recall that.

i don't think we do, i just assumed so because i don't know what else would make him sufficiently tyranty
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 04:36:31 pm
i wonder if it will matter that the *nonmen* failed to honor the Niom (i'm guessing torture would be a deal-breaker)
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 04:39:46 pm
i don't think we do, i just assumed so because i don't know what else would make him sufficiently tyranty

I don't know, that song makes it seem like his parents were kind of jerks, wanting to keep their bloodline so pure as to be incestuous.

I don't know, of course, that song is probably post-hoc, a rationalization after the fact of what did happen though.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 04:44:40 pm
i don't think we do, i just assumed so because i don't know what else would make him sufficiently tyranty

I don't know, that song makes it seem like his parents were kind of jerks, wanting to keep their bloodline so pure as to be incestuous.

I don't know, of course, that song is probably post-hoc, a rationalization after the fact of what did happen though.

i wasn't thinking of the song, just the way CC is regarded throughout TSA, as a really bad ass kingly kingy king.  i have no idea, but it would be cool if her were Tall and Few
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 10:34:56 pm
Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.

I think all three of them are going to be alive, I didn't get the sense that they were pulling the whole place down, per se.  Moe will be crazy like daddy now though.  Serwa is going to be even more staunch that Kellhus knew and was right the whole time.  Sorweel, well, I don't know...

Agreed. I definitely got the feeling that they would all three survive. Presumably some of the Nonmen will too. It's interesting to think that Oinaras might decide to leave the Mansion and make war on the Consult.


I always did think the Heron Spear was more like a recoilless rifle than an actual spear.


With all respect to some of the amazing artwork that I've seen out there, in my mind the Heron Spear was a no shit plasma rifle which men and Nonmen called a spear because they didn't have any other frame of reference. I think it would probably be scaled up in size in proportion to an Inchoroi vs a human.

Edit - It just occurred to me that we might actually have a meeting of Cnaiur and Moe Jr, and now they will both be mad.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on May 14, 2016, 02:26:26 pm
I think it was kind of like "If it works out then great.  If it doesn't, tear them a new one."  I'm obviously paraphrasing here.  Kellhus would never use a drab word like 'great.'

Yeah, he says:

Quote
"And if Ishterebinth has fallen to the Consult?  What then, Father?"
A grave look.
"You are my daughter, Serwa," Anasûrimbor Kellhus replied. "Show them my portion."

Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.

I think all three of them are going to be alive, I didn't get the sense that they were pulling the whole place down, per se.  Moe will be crazy like daddy now though.  Serwa is going to be even more staunch that Kellhus knew and was right the whole time.  Sorweel, well, I don't know...

I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!

I think there's a Ride of the Valkyries moment coming in TUC.  Serwa, Sorweel, the Tall, The Most Ancient Warrior....  the remnants of Istherebinth (with an army of Emwama) come charging against the Consult near the end.  Brutal.

Yeap - excepting that betraying the Ordeal would be a one-time opportunity at glorious trauma...

I don't think that Serwa and Sorweel, anyways, were broken by their trials in the Weeping Mountain. Trial can breed resilience. Sorwa, an Earwan couple with respect, power, and agency 8)!

For my part, I figure in classic Bakker style, he'll skip over the legendary moments where Oirunas and Serwa take the Nonmen to heel and Ishterebinth's arc for the first part of TUC will probably just be Sorweel, Serwa, and the Tall debating whether or not to ride to the aid of the Ordeal...

EDIT: Serwa can Sing Sorcery despite the OG Agonic Collar... Cray. And sadly, I'm fairly sure Oinaral Lastborn is dead.

Though, dead seems to mean something else in this series...
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 16, 2016, 11:28:30 pm
I think it was kind of like "If it works out then great.  If it doesn't, tear them a new one."  I'm obviously paraphrasing here.  Kellhus would never use a drab word like 'great.'

Yeah, he says:

Quote
"And if Ishterebinth has fallen to the Consult?  What then, Father?"
A grave look.
"You are my daughter, Serwa," Anasûrimbor Kellhus replied. "Show them my portion."

I think it's a genuine unknown. He honors the Niom, but its a double bluff. If it succeeds and they honor it, great, he gets some Intact to play with. If they are crazy and Golgotterath controls them, then Serwa is there to burn the place down.
And if she fails, woe comes. "with your last breath, pray" - or something.

Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.
I think those aligned with the Consult, the Vile, will all die. There was some dissension among the ranks, clearly, and I believe those left Intact will show up as the red sun rises, come out of the mountains to relieve TGO in it's darkest hour.
... Or maybe not channelling Tolkien so heavily, but I think they'll support TGO to defeat the consult.

Wonder what you guys think--did anyone survive?  I had this overwhelming sense of doom at the end, that Serwa was bringing down the mansion on one and all, but Madness didn't get that vibe at all.

Also, if they did survive, it's going to be all kinds of fucked up.  Serwa was tortured, she's basically another Koringhus now.  Is she going to try and kill her dad?  Will she gather 100 stones or murder 99 anagogic schoolmen?  Moe, poor Moe, if alive, is going to be a sad shell.  Sorweel might be a really interesting character after this, but still, he was kind of soul-raped and that is just fucked up.

I think all three of them are going to be alive, I didn't get the sense that they were pulling the whole place down, per se.  Moe will be crazy like daddy now though.  Serwa is going to be even more staunch that Kellhus knew and was right the whole time.  Sorweel, well, I don't know...

I have to wonder if oblivion has, to some degree, cured some of the Tall so that they will be, at least for awhile, like their old selves.

The Most Ancient Warrior--he's been doing his daily reps to keep his head clear for this day!  He's going to war!!!
To arms! I sure hope so :).

 But what of Sorweel in the Holy Dark (deep?)?
I think he lost contact with Yatwer. At least for a while. Shows that even someone so close to Yatwer could go missing from her gaze, and I doubt she even noticed. Blind to what they are blind to, and all that.
Could have been that Sorweels shaken faith, seeing that Yatwer was wrong, and Kellhus -regardless of divinity- was 'right' to stop the consult, might have relieved her grasp on him, if only for a time.
Or, the helmet thingy shielded him from Yatwer's gaze, it being a nonman soul who worrshiped oblivion and not her. And/or some kind of Rick/Mortey shielding effect :P.

As for Tyrants and Kings, I think it has more to do with tradition and fear more than anything else. The Mansions have never been without a son of Tsonos. They were simply always the ruling class.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 18, 2016, 12:56:50 am
Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 18, 2016, 02:46:52 am
Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!
He did say Frodo Baggins was his favorite villain.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 18, 2016, 12:01:26 pm
But what of Sorweel in the Holy Dark (deep?)?
I think he lost contact with Yatwer. At least for a while. Shows that even someone so close to Yatwer could go missing from her gaze, and I doubt she even noticed. Blind to what they are blind to, and all that.
Could have been that Sorweels shaken faith, seeing that Yatwer was wrong, and Kellhus -regardless of divinity- was 'right' to stop the consult, might have relieved her grasp on him, if only for a time.
Or, the helmet thingy shielded him from Yatwer's gaze, it being a nonman soul who worrshiped oblivion and not her. And/or some kind of Rick/Mortey shielding effect :P.

Indeed, he certainly seemed to be flip-flopping on if Kellhus is, essentially, good or evil.

I think the crux here is that he is neither.  As Theli (oh, poor, poor Theli) figured out, Kellhus is nothing but what he thinks he must be at the moment.  But then again, is that really true?  We get contradictions to that too.  Kellhus simply is, the plan (TTT) and himself are one.

I am guessing that at some point, Sorweel is going to be presented the opportunity to stop Kellhus, but I don't think he actually will.  Like the WLW, something else will intercede, Sorweel will have doubt, even momentarily, and the chance will be gone.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on May 19, 2016, 12:44:06 am
Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!
He did say Frodo Baggins was his favorite villain.

Lol - he was genuinely gleeful about that one ;).

EDIT: Sorweel remains one of my favorite characters. I think he's growing up quite well, hardship is giving him a genuine pose, the ability to discern the competing ends of such a crux, doubt, and choose for himself.

I just keep thinking of all the different "personality-scenarios" regarding meet-ups at Agongorea. TUC-proper is going to be insane.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 19, 2016, 01:24:14 am
Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!
He did say Frodo Baggins was his favorite villain.

Lol - he was genuinely gleeful about that one ;).

EDIT: Sorweel remains one of my favorite characters. I think he's growing up quite well, hardship is giving him a genuine pose, the ability to discern the competing ends of such a crux, doubt, and choose for himself.

I just keep thinking of all the different "personality-scenarios" regarding meet-ups at Agongorea. TUC-proper is going to be insane.

I'm not even going to pretend, I really don't like Sorweel.

More Aurang is all I ask...
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on May 19, 2016, 11:28:01 pm
Of course the Hobbits are a slave race in Earwa.  Typical Bakker!
He did say Frodo Baggins was his favorite villain.

Lol - he was genuinely gleeful about that one ;).

EDIT: Sorweel remains one of my favorite characters. I think he's growing up quite well, hardship is giving him a genuine pose, the ability to discern the competing ends of such a crux, doubt, and choose for himself.

I just keep thinking of all the different "personality-scenarios" regarding meet-ups at Agongorea. TUC-proper is going to be insane.

He's growing on me as well, but with Cnaiur back, no one can take his place at the top of my favorite character list.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 20, 2016, 06:45:21 pm

EDIT: Serwa can Sing Sorcery despite the OG Agonic Collar... Cray. And sadly, I'm fairly sure Oinaral Lastborn is dead.

She can? Thought she was either mundane singing, or waiting to have the collar removed. It wasnt removed as she was being gagged?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on May 22, 2016, 12:27:51 am
As far as my readings (which we all now know is compromised), that's the whole reveal of Serwa's arc in Ishterebinth. As per the draft, Harapior tells her he'd been asking himself why a Dunyain would sing Ihrimsu songs while they tortured Moenghus? It seemed to me that he then gags her in addition to the Agonic collar - the gag, which Sorweel later removes so that she can Sing.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 22, 2016, 02:27:23 am
Seems different than what I recall, but I don't have the book to reference anymore.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 23, 2016, 10:55:29 am
As far as my readings (which we all now know is compromised), that's the whole reveal of Serwa's arc in Ishterebinth. As per the draft, Harapior tells her he'd been asking himself why a Dunyain would sing Ihrimsu songs while they tortured Moenghus? It seemed to me that he then gags her in addition to the Agonic collar - the gag, which Sorweel later removes so that she can Sing.

This was my impression as well, although, I can see how it isn't exactly clear.

I guess one way around the Collar would be to have some kind of off-the-chart pain tolerance?  No idea if that is how she was able to do it though.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on May 23, 2016, 11:42:55 am
I just read this section yesterday.  There was a chorae that someone had thrown at Serwa, it was bouncing along the grilled floor until part of it gave way and halted it.  It's described that Sorweel grabbed it and was reaching toward her face with it.  Basically, though it's not explicitly stated, I figured the proximity of the chorae to the collar nullified the magic so she could sing (in addition to him pulling the cloth from her mouth of course).
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 23, 2016, 12:39:37 pm
I just read this section yesterday.  There was a chorae that someone had thrown at Serwa, it was bouncing along the grilled floor until part of it gave way and halted it.  It's described that Sorweel grabbed it and was reaching toward her face with it.  Basically, though it's not explicitly stated, I figured the proximity of the chorae to the collar nullified the magic so she could sing (in addition to him pulling the cloth from her mouth of course).

Aporetic sorcery canceling out something meant to prevent sorcery :P. Interesting.

Also interesting that a chorae was even in the room at all. The practice was banned, I would have expected Ishterebinth to be bereft of such objects.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 23, 2016, 12:42:49 pm
Well, if the Ishroi didn't have any Chorae, wouldn't that allow the Quya to be undisputed masters of them?  How else would they keep them in check?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on May 23, 2016, 01:09:31 pm
And the Tall had four chorae embedded/attached to hi armor, so it seems they, at some point, overcame their resistance to utilizing chorae.  Maybe after the Inchies grafted the ability to perform sorcery, or Erratic Quya started going over to the Consult.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 23, 2016, 03:41:53 pm
I am firmly in the camp that Serwa's singing at the end is purely mundane.  Much is made of the spiritual, religious value of song to the Nonmen in one of the chapters.  She'll perform some Tragic ballad which will Dunyain-whelm all the Cunoroi.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 23, 2016, 04:28:16 pm
Well, if the Ishroi didn't have any Chorae, wouldn't that allow the Quya to be undisputed masters of them?  How else would they keep them in check?
Tradition I guess? They seem a people obsessed with traditions. The Sons of Tsonor rule the mansions, period. Maybe its unlawful for Quya to fight against non-Quya.

And the Tall had four chorae embedded/attached to hi armor, so it seems they, at some point, overcame their resistance to utilizing chorae.  Maybe after the Inchies grafted the ability to perform sorcery, or Erratic Quya started going over to the Consult.

Good point. Even protection from themselves as they see their brothers go beserk looking for tragedy. Would be important to keep some around.

I am firmly in the camp that Serwa's singing at the end is purely mundane.  Much is made of the spiritual, religious value of song to the Nonmen in one of the chapters.  She'll perform some Tragic ballad which will Dunyain-whelm all the Cunoroi.
I never really considered this. Clearly her singing before was mundane, and it severely affected Sir Torturer.
That he gagged her to prevent mundane singing seems very obvious.  That she is then following through with her plan to whelm the nonmen with her singing once Sorweel removes the gag seems very plausible. I very much like this.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 23, 2016, 04:53:00 pm
Totally Wilshire.  Especially with the Nonmen genes in the Anasurimbor bloodline.  Kellhus is described as having a "deep and cavernous voice ringing with inhuman resonance" at the very last page of TTT.  The exact same phrase is used by Achamian to describe Cleric waxing philosophical in Cil-Aujas.  Those Nonmen genes will allow Serwa to hit those high notes—imagine the trauma of recollection of all their wives singing?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on May 23, 2016, 05:04:55 pm
Re: mundane singing.  Except that previous to all this, when the Nonmen were taking her to meet the King, she reflected that the time for singing (songs implied) was over.

Edit: 'And made demonstration of her father's dread portion.'  Though Kellhus likes a good hymn, I doubt that's what she was about to do.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on May 23, 2016, 05:16:28 pm
Re: mundane singing.  Except that previous to all this, when the Nonmen were taking her to meet the King, she reflected that the time for singing (songs implied) was over.

Edit: 'And made demonstration of her father's dread portion.'  Though Kellhus likes a good hymn, I doubt that's what she was about to do.
Agreed. I think she begins singing songs of a "different" variety. Still not sure about the agonic collar though.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 23, 2016, 06:09:26 pm
No.  lol  No.  I don't think I'll ever be as adamant about anything else on this forum!  "Show them my portion" has plenty of semantic ambiguities, besides "kill them all if things go south."  To me, that means: "Make a demonstration of my abilities", which doesn't preclude singing a good hymn to ensnare the Nonmen.

And my read of "the time for singing was over" wasn't a rolling up the sleeves getting ready for a fight but more of a resigned to their doom, I guess. They don't know that Sorweel is coming back to save them.  They are pretty much dead at that point without any chance of escape or hope.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on May 23, 2016, 07:02:37 pm
 :D Just my opinion, BUT if she could have whelmed them with mundane singing, why didn't she do it before?  Before she was tortured?  Before Moenghus was tortured and maimed?  Before she was gagged?  Before her head was strapped to the grill?  Before she broke down and resigned herself to the fact that she'd failed?  Just seems like, if that was how it was going to play out (more mundane singing), it seems kind of circuitous and pointless.  She wouldn't have waited to whelm them if she could have done that from the start, and saved weeks of torture/time/opportunity.  Not saying I'm absolutely correct, but it just doesn't make sense to me.  Meh.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 23, 2016, 08:40:58 pm
:D Just my opinion, BUT if she could have whelmed them with mundane singing, why didn't she do it before?  Before she was tortured?  Before Moenghus was tortured and maimed?  Before she was gagged?  Before her head was strapped to the grill?  Before she broke down and resigned herself to the fact that she'd failed?  Just seems like, if that was how it was going to play out (more mundane singing), it seems kind of circuitous and pointless.  She wouldn't have waited to whelm them if she could have done that from the start, and saved weeks of torture/time/opportunity.  Not saying I'm absolutely correct, but it just doesn't make sense to me.  Meh.
Wouldn't want to blow your trump card on a pawn when you can go straight for the king.
Moenghus is nobody, he provides no real value to the Anasurimbor line - he's not even Dunyain. Her gambit was that her singing convinced Torturer to let her see the King, and that once there she could do SOMETHING to convince/force them to free them.

I'm not convinced on the whelming thing, but she definitely thought she was going to be able to get freed right up until she was gagged. That's when everything fell apart and she realized she had lost.

There is just no way she could Cant with the collar on. The Architect made that.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on May 23, 2016, 09:03:48 pm
:D Just my opinion, BUT if she could have whelmed them with mundane singing, why didn't she do it before?  Before she was tortured?  Before Moenghus was tortured and maimed?  Before she was gagged?  Before her head was strapped to the grill?  Before she broke down and resigned herself to the fact that she'd failed?  Just seems like, if that was how it was going to play out (more mundane singing), it seems kind of circuitous and pointless.  She wouldn't have waited to whelm them if she could have done that from the start, and saved weeks of torture/time/opportunity.  Not saying I'm absolutely correct, but it just doesn't make sense to me.  Meh.
Wouldn't want to blow your trump card on a pawn when you can go straight for the king.
Moenghus is nobody, he provides no real value to the Anasurimbor line - he's not even Dunyain. Her gambit was that her singing convinced Torturer to let her see the King, and that once there she could do SOMETHING to convince/force them to free them.

I'm not convinced on the whelming thing, but she definitely thought she was going to be able to get freed right up until she was gagged. That's when everything fell apart and she realized she had lost.

There is just no way she could Cant with the collar on. The Architect made that.

I don't buy it.  It took Kellhus (a full-blooded Dunyain) months to build his following in the Holy War, and he had to start small.  The people in power were the ones who had the most to lose, the hardest to convince to give up their power to him.  Why would Nonman society be the exact opposite of that?  Serwa (only half-Dunyain), is supposed to be able to charm the Nonman king in moments, get him to release her through a whelming of some sort?  That's precisely what she was doing all those weeks, using her Dunyain voice to sow discord among their souls, to remind them of their lost wives, assumedly to get in front of the king.  To then sing more tunes to him?  Nah.  She knew Ishterebinth had fallen to Golgotterath by that point.  No way she was suddenly going to convince them to switch sides.  She was there to end it, to destroy any possibility that the Nonmen of Ishterebinth would join in the fight against the Ordeal.

So, Sorweel (with the Chorae in hand) interrupted the agonic collar and pulled the rag from her mouth to allow her to do her thing.  With sorcery.  I suppose we shall see the aftermath in a year (sigh) when TUC comes out.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 23, 2016, 09:07:35 pm
So, Sorweel (with the Chorae in hand) interrupted the agonic collar and pulled the rag from her mouth to allow her to do her thing.  With sorcery.  I suppose we shall see the aftermath in a year (sigh) when TUC comes out.
The chorae disrupting the collar is a very likely scenario.

However, what was he plan otherwise, without miracle chorae? I refuse to accept she planned to sing from with the collar attached. Did she just think they were going to let her go, stand in front of the King, and take off the collar for her? That seems an even more unlikely path. Clearly, she didn't expect to be gagged and tied to the floor, but what DID she expect?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Somnambulist on May 23, 2016, 09:39:37 pm
So, Sorweel (with the Chorae in hand) interrupted the agonic collar and pulled the rag from her mouth to allow her to do her thing.  With sorcery.  I suppose we shall see the aftermath in a year (sigh) when TUC comes out.
The chorae disrupting the collar is a very likely scenario.

However, what was he plan otherwise, without miracle chorae? I refuse to accept she planned to sing from with the collar attached. Did she just think they were going to let her go, stand in front of the King, and take off the collar for her? That seems an even more unlikely path. Clearly, she didn't expect to be gagged and tied to the floor, but what DID she expect?

This, I concede.  Without the intervention of the Tall/Sorweel/chorae, she was doomed.  I do believe she was singing (mundane) to try to convince the Nonmen underlings to bring her before the king.  But, yeah, she had to have suspected they'd put a collar on her.  Don't know how she'd planned to get around that.  Maybe she didn't.  Maybe she though the metagnosis could, in one go, cause enough damage and/or kill the king before the collar killed her.  Dunno.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on May 23, 2016, 10:47:24 pm
There is just no way she could Cant with the collar on. The Architect made that.

So, Sorweel (with the Chorae in hand) interrupted the agonic collar and pulled the rag from her mouth to allow her to do her thing.  With sorcery.  I suppose we shall see the aftermath in a year (sigh) when TUC comes out.
The chorae disrupting the collar is a very likely scenario.

However, what was he plan otherwise, without miracle chorae? I refuse to accept she planned to sing from with the collar attached. Did she just think they were going to let her go, stand in front of the King, and take off the collar for her? That seems an even more unlikely path. Clearly, she didn't expect to be gagged and tied to the floor, but what DID she expect?

This, I concede.  Without the intervention of the Tall/Sorweel/chorae, she was doomed.  I do believe she was singing (mundane) to try to convince the Nonmen underlings to bring her before the king.  But, yeah, she had to have suspected they'd put a collar on her.  Don't know how she'd planned to get around that.  Maybe she didn't.  Maybe she though the metagnosis could, in one go, cause enough damage and/or kill the king before the collar killed her.  Dunno.

I'm with Somnambulist on this one. It strains belief that she thought she could get into the throne room and use mundane singing to show the nonmen Kell's "portion." Although, I will say, that it took her so long with the mundane singing because she was puzzling out just how to sing the song to remind the torturer or his wife (iirc he even mentions how it takes her a while).

Perhaps we are ignoring another possibility. Serwa can somehow hide within herself, I am assuming the nonmen tried compulsion and it didn't work, so maybe she has some trick to use sorcery with the collar on.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 23, 2016, 11:00:59 pm
She has the Seswatha homunculus, torture and compulsions wouldn't work on her. Her being dunyain certainly adds another layer... I wonder if Seswatha only comes out/helps when being pried for the gnosis.

Her using magic with the collar on turns on how the collar actually works. If it just makes the person feel pain, then being able to stop your brain/neurons/nerves from feeling pain, then it would be ineffectual.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on May 24, 2016, 12:04:17 am
Metagnosis trumps Gnostic artifact created by Emilidis. That was and remains my guess.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 24, 2016, 02:41:30 am
Emilidis may have been a metagnosi, given that no one else could match his creations... :)
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on May 28, 2016, 02:10:55 am
Nah, he was just the best artificer of his time and place ;).

I'm not sure if the ARC elucidates more than the draft on this but tangenty segue: it's interesting to think of individual Nonmen Quya patronizing each of the "twelve" original Gnostic schools...

Who were the other Nonmen? And the other Schools, mind?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 29, 2016, 04:29:32 pm
Yes, give the Artifacts, the Aporos, and the Gnosis, what other specialized schools might they have founded.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on May 31, 2016, 03:22:46 pm
Yes, give the Artifacts, the Aporos, and the Gnosis, what other specialized schools might they have founded.
It makes me wonder if we will see any of them turn up. Perhaps the nonmen crossed into Eanna and taught the Gnosis to the last tribe of men.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wilshire on May 31, 2016, 03:26:12 pm
I am maybe a little bit dissapointed that the few nonmen who are left intact are simply the youngest and least accomplished. I was hoping there would be come more clever mechanism that a few of them found to keep their sanity.
That said, I wonder why the big guy had any sanity at all. He seemed pretty rational for being as old as he was. BTW, was that ever explained, why some of the nonmen are giants?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on May 31, 2016, 03:41:43 pm
I am maybe a little bit dissapointed that the few nonmen who are left intact are simply the youngest and least accomplished. I was hoping there would be come more clever mechanism that a few of them found to keep their sanity.
That said, I wonder why the big guy had any sanity at all. He seemed pretty rational for being as old as he was. BTW, was that ever explained, why some of the nonmen are giants?

Not that I can recall, but the fact that the Dolour effected them differently makes me think that The Tall were either a subspecies of Nonman or some kind of mutation (i.e. they were perhaps all related). 

It seems the Nonmen we're as homogeneous genetically speaking as we would probably have guessed, seeing how most of the old, old (like the Ferrymen, whatever his name was) we effected differently by immortality. 
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: profgrape on May 31, 2016, 05:47:00 pm
After my second and admittedly, more careful read, I noticed that Nin'Ciljaris refers to Yatwer as the "Fertility Principle".   As if the Nonmen regard Yatwer as an abstraction that explains the miraculous; wombs quicken and therefore, there must be a greater power behind it.   

This makes makes me think that the Nonmen more or less know exactly what's going on with the Gods.  And all the evidence points to their being terrified about it to the point where their goal, seeking Oblivion, is all about avoiding them.





Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Garet Jax on May 31, 2016, 07:58:17 pm
I am maybe a little bit dissapointed that the few nonmen who are left intact are simply the youngest and least accomplished. I was hoping there would be come more clever mechanism that a few of them found to keep their sanity.
That said, I wonder why the big guy had any sanity at all. He seemed pretty rational for being as old as he was. BTW, was that ever explained, why some of the nonmen are giants?

If I recall correctly, I thought it was mentioned that there were some of the nonmen that were simply "affected differently" (my quotes).  The big guy was more prone to the violent outbursts, but he also retained more of his memory without having to perform atrocities to remember.  They were more concerned with worshiping the spaces in between rather than trying to remember.

It might be disappointing and an oversimplified answer, but, The Tall are all very old...  My thought was you would have already had to be ancient by the time of the fall to even have lived long enough to be one of The Tall in the current time setting. 

This might just be a thought I had which I applied as canon, but I was under the impression all of The Tall were Ishroi and not Quya, if that makes any difference.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 01, 2016, 12:25:21 pm
I am maybe a little bit dissapointed that the few nonmen who are left intact are simply the youngest and least accomplished. I was hoping there would be come more clever mechanism that a few of them found to keep their sanity.
That said, I wonder why the big guy had any sanity at all. He seemed pretty rational for being as old as he was. BTW, was that ever explained, why some of the nonmen are giants?

If I recall correctly, I thought it was mentioned that there were some of the nonmen that were simply "affected differently" (my quotes).  The big guy was more prone to the violent outbursts, but he also retained more of his memory without having to perform atrocities to remember.  They were more concerned with worshiping the spaces in between rather than trying to remember.

It might be disappointing and an oversimplified answer, but, The Tall are all very old...  My thought was you would have already had to be ancient by the time of the fall to even have lived long enough to be one of The Tall in the current time setting. 

This might just be a thought I had which I applied as canon, but I was under the impression all of The Tall were Ishroi and not Quya, if that makes any difference.

It could be that the The Tall were the "original" Nonmen, that they were the original Ishroi, and somehow the Nonmen we "always" see are actually the derivatives.  Could it be a reason why Cû'jara Cinmoi was so apt to take the Inchoroi up on the offer of immortality?  A chance to finally elevate himself and the rest of them above The Tall?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on June 01, 2016, 02:30:38 pm
I am maybe a little bit dissapointed that the few nonmen who are left intact are simply the youngest and least accomplished. I was hoping there would be come more clever mechanism that a few of them found to keep their sanity.
That said, I wonder why the big guy had any sanity at all. He seemed pretty rational for being as old as he was. BTW, was that ever explained, why some of the nonmen are giants?
My interpretation of it was that the Tall were all intact but had retreated from the world out of...I don't know...apathy? Oirunas (sp) immediately recognized his son.

I wonder why the nonmen heroes never stopped growing. I can only assume that after receiving the immortality treatment they stopped growing, elsewise Oirunas's armor wouldn't have fit after the thousands of years since he last put it on.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Garet Jax on June 01, 2016, 03:10:44 pm
I am maybe a little bit dissapointed that the few nonmen who are left intact are simply the youngest and least accomplished. I was hoping there would be come more clever mechanism that a few of them found to keep their sanity.
That said, I wonder why the big guy had any sanity at all. He seemed pretty rational for being as old as he was. BTW, was that ever explained, why some of the nonmen are giants?
My interpretation of it was that the Tall were all intact but had retreated from the world out of...I don't know...apathy? Oirunas (sp) immediately recognized his son.

I could have sworn there was a direct description where it said (paraphrased): The Dolour affected them differently.  They did not lose their memories as much as the others, they simply were more prone to violent outbursts.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 01, 2016, 03:20:03 pm
I am maybe a little bit dissapointed that the few nonmen who are left intact are simply the youngest and least accomplished. I was hoping there would be come more clever mechanism that a few of them found to keep their sanity.
That said, I wonder why the big guy had any sanity at all. He seemed pretty rational for being as old as he was. BTW, was that ever explained, why some of the nonmen are giants?
My interpretation of it was that the Tall were all intact but had retreated from the world out of...I don't know...apathy? Oirunas (sp) immediately recognized his son.

I could have sworn there was a direct description where it said (paraphrased): The Dolour affected them differently.  They did not lose their memories as much as the others, they simply were more prone to violent outbursts.

Yeah. Page 321:

Quote
The Dolour affects them differently: their confusion is less profound, but their violent humours rule them more completely.  They come here because only the Tall can hope to survive the mad humours of the Tall.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on June 01, 2016, 05:18:17 pm
I am maybe a little bit dissapointed that the few nonmen who are left intact are simply the youngest and least accomplished. I was hoping there would be come more clever mechanism that a few of them found to keep their sanity.
That said, I wonder why the big guy had any sanity at all. He seemed pretty rational for being as old as he was. BTW, was that ever explained, why some of the nonmen are giants?
My interpretation of it was that the Tall were all intact but had retreated from the world out of...I don't know...apathy? Oirunas (sp) immediately recognized his son.

I could have sworn there was a direct description where it said (paraphrased): The Dolour affected them differently.  They did not lose their memories as much as the others, they simply were more prone to violent outbursts.

Yeah. Page 321:

Quote
The Dolour affects them differently: their confusion is less profound, but their violent humours rule them more completely.  They come here because only the Tall can hope to survive the mad humours of the Tall.
Excellent! Thanks for looking that up, H.

So it sounds like the Tall may be intact enough to give it one last round with the Consult.

Does anyone suppose we are going to see Mekertirig in TUC? If Kellhus ran into him in TDTCB, then it seems like they should logically meet up again.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 01, 2016, 05:25:34 pm

Excellent! Thanks for looking that up, H.

So it sounds like the Tall may be intact enough to give it one last round with the Consult.

Does anyone suppose we are going to see Mekertirig in TUC? If Kellhus ran into him in TDTCB, then it seems like they should logically meet up again.

Luckily that one was easy to find, haha.  Ebook can't get here soon enough!

I'd bet we do see him again.  However, I could easily see him being too aloof to be found.  It would be kind of neat if Akka and Mimara ran into him though.  I wonder, is he that much more powerful than Akka with the Gnosis?  My guess would be yes...
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: profgrape on June 01, 2016, 05:32:45 pm

Excellent! Thanks for looking that up, H.

So it sounds like the Tall may be intact enough to give it one last round with the Consult.

Does anyone suppose we are going to see Mekertirig in TUC? If Kellhus ran into him in TDTCB, then it seems like they should logically meet up again.

Luckily that one was easy to find, haha.  Ebook can't get here soon enough!

I'd bet we do see him again.  However, I could easily see him being too aloof to be found.  It would be kind of neat if Akka and Mimara ran into him though.  I wonder, is he that much more powerful than Akka with the Gnosis?  My guess would be yes...

From the Shae dream, I was convinced that we'd at least get a Mek cameo in the Akka/Mimara thread.  Although the cameo we did get (Cnaiur) I wouldn't trade for all the Mek's in Golgatterath.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on June 01, 2016, 05:42:56 pm

Excellent! Thanks for looking that up, H.

So it sounds like the Tall may be intact enough to give it one last round with the Consult.

Does anyone suppose we are going to see Mekertirig in TUC? If Kellhus ran into him in TDTCB, then it seems like they should logically meet up again.

Luckily that one was easy to find, haha.  Ebook can't get here soon enough!

I'd bet we do see him again.  However, I could easily see him being too aloof to be found.  It would be kind of neat if Akka and Mimara ran into him though.  I wonder, is he that much more powerful than Akka with the Gnosis?  My guess would be yes...
That would be my guess as well, but I feel like the False Sun did give us a hint that a human can be more powerful that a nonman.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 01, 2016, 05:55:21 pm
That would be my guess as well, but I feel like the False Sun did give us a hint that a human can be more powerful that a nonman.

Indeed, I loved the part of TGO where Kellhus name-drops Titirga.  Although I think he is right in his assessment, he is indeed more powerful than Titirga.  Shae is probably less powerful than Titirga, even still alive as he is.  I would think that Seswatha is slightly more powerful than Aurang or Aurax.

So, where does Akka fit?  I'm not sure, I would think he isn't quite as strong as Serwa, or Saccarees.  It would seem he wasn't really quite as strong as Cleric and presumably Mek was stronger than him?  I would guess that puts Akka somewhere in the neighborhood of the top 10 most powerful sorcerers alive, but certainly closer to number 10 then even 5.  Something like:

1. Kellhus
2. Shae
3. Aurang
4. Aurax
5. Mek
6. Serwa
7. Saccarees
8. Akka
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on June 01, 2016, 06:12:49 pm
That would be my guess as well, but I feel like the False Sun did give us a hint that a human can be more powerful that a nonman.

Indeed, I loved the part of TGO where Kellhus name-drops Titirga.  Although I think he is right in his assessment, he is indeed more powerful than Titirga.  Shae is probably less powerful than Titirga, even still alive as he is.  I would think that Seswatha is slightly more powerful than Aurang or Aurax.

So, where does Akka fit?  I'm not sure, I would think he isn't quite as strong as Serwa, or Saccarees.  It would seem he wasn't really quite as strong as Cleric and presumably Mek was stronger than him?  I would guess that puts Akka somewhere in the neighborhood of the top 10 most powerful sorcerers alive, but certainly closer to number 10 then even 5.  Something like:

1. Kellhus
2. Shae
3. Aurang
4. Aurax
5. Mek
6. Serwa
7. Saccarees
8. Akka
That seems like an accurate estimation. Akka doesn't have the Metagnosis, so he would be less powerful that Serwa and Saccarees.
It seems like at Dagliash, when Saccarees went one-on-one with Aurang, he threw a powerful Metagnostic can't at Aurang and it did nothing. That doesn't bode will for the GO.

I think I would put Mek under any of the Metagnostics though.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 01, 2016, 06:17:15 pm
That seems like an accurate estimation. Akka doesn't have the Metagnosis, so he would be less powerful that Serwa and Saccarees.
It seems like at Dagliash, when Saccarees went one-on-one with Aurang, he threw a powerful Metagnostic can't at Aurang and it did nothing. That doesn't bode will for the GO.

I think I would put Mek under any of the Metagnostics though.

Yeah, that is probably more correct, even though he might have more "pure meaning" to his Cants the meta-Gnosis is probably still more powerful.

Aurax is a toss-up, we really don't know what he knows, but I have a feeling the Aurang somehow knows something of the Aporos, among other things, making him probably the trickiest of all of them.  Heck, he might even be more dangerous than Shae.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: profgrape on June 01, 2016, 06:22:17 pm
That seems like an accurate estimation. Akka doesn't have the Metagnosis, so he would be less powerful that Serwa and Saccarees.
It seems like at Dagliash, when Saccarees went one-on-one with Aurang, he threw a powerful Metagnostic can't at Aurang and it did nothing. That doesn't bode will for the GO.

I think I would put Mek under any of the Metagnostics though.

Yeah, that is probably more correct, even though he might have more "pure meaning" to his Cants the meta-Gnosis is probably still more powerful.

Aurax is a toss-up, we really don't know what he knows, but I have a feeling the Aurang somehow knows something of the Aporos, among other things, making him probably the trickiest of all of them.  Heck, he might even be more dangerous than Shae.

As the current head of the Ish Quya, The Lord of Swans is probably a badass-of-rank as well. 
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 01, 2016, 06:32:44 pm
As the current head of the Ish Quya, The Lord of Swans is probably a badass-of-rank as well. 

Oh, yeah, duh, knew I was forgetting someone.  There could even be a couple of other Quya that could make the list really, if we knew who they were.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Garet Jax on June 01, 2016, 06:46:58 pm

That seems like an accurate estimation. Akka doesn't have the Metagnosis, so he would be less powerful that Serwa and Saccarees.
It seems like at Dagliash, when Saccarees went one-on-one with Aurang, he threw a powerful Metagnostic can't at Aurang and it did nothing. That doesn't bode will for the GO.

I think I would put Mek under any of the Metagnostics though.

I read that portion as Seswatha taking over Saccarees in a similar fashion as Akka in the Library. Which makes the fruitless attack all the more troublesome for TGO in my opinion.

Also, in another thread way back, I brought up Akka's use as Qirri as a possible means to "level the playing field with meta-gnostic's".  Not that he necessarily made the conceptual leaps to the MG, just that it somehow has elevated him... for what it is worth.  People us the "Cleric Suicide" as an example of Akka's strength, while it gives good measure, it says he sang nothing but wards while his title in the mandate (my phrasing) was War Cant Master or something.  That makes me feel Akka is a lot more dangerous on the offensive than the encounter with Cleric seems to suggest.

Back to Isterebinth, was there ever an approximation given on how many of The Tall there were?  Lastborn tells us a dozen "intact", but that doesn't seem to take into the account any of The Tall that may or may not be offended by the "Vile" circumstances taking place.


EDIT:  Well now that I read my first sentence out loud, Seswatha being in the drivers seat in that confrontation could have possibly hindered Saccarees MG abilities.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 01, 2016, 06:55:15 pm
I read that portion as Seswatha taking over Saccarees in a similar fashion as Akka in the Library. Which makes the fruitless attack all the more troublesome for TGO in my opinion.

Also, in another thread way back, I brought up Akka's use as Qirri as a possible means to "level the playing field with meta-gnostic's".  Not that he necessarily made the conceptual leaps to the MG, just that it somehow has elevated him... for what it is worth.  People us the "Cleric Suicide" as an example of Akka's strength, while it gives good measure, it says he sang nothing but wards while his title in the mandate (my phrasing) was War Cant Master or something.  That makes me feel Akka is a lot more dangerous on the offensive than the encounter with Cleric seems to suggest.

Indeed.  I mean, honestly, the list is pretty sketchy after Kellhus really, haha.  I still have doubts if Akka is stronger than any meta-Gnosic, Qirri or no Qirri, but he may well be stronger than any of the Nonmen left.  Or not, haha.  It's really difficult to place it all really, since we have such little information that doesn't involve some extenuation circumstance, like the Seswatha-spirit-inhabiting.

Back to Isterebinth, was there ever an approximation given on how many of The Tall there were?  Lastborn tells us a dozen "intact", but that doesn't seem to take into the account any of The Tall that may or may not be offended by the "Vile" circumstances taking place.

I don't recall there ever being an actual estimation of the number.  My guess would be something like, "no more than a handful" but that's based on nothing at all really, just the idea that there couldn't have been all that many to begin with.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on June 01, 2016, 07:18:18 pm

EDIT:  Well now that I read my first sentence out loud, Seswatha being in the drivers seat in that confrontation could have possibly hindered Saccarees MG abilities.
This is a distinct possibility.

I read that portion as Seswatha taking over Saccarees in a similar fashion as Akka in the Library. Which makes the fruitless attack all the more troublesome for TGO in my opinion.

Also, in another thread way back, I brought up Akka's use as Qirri as a possible means to "level the playing field with meta-gnostic's".  Not that he necessarily made the conceptual leaps to the MG, just that it somehow has elevated him... for what it is worth.  People us the "Cleric Suicide" as an example of Akka's strength, while it gives good measure, it says he sang nothing but wards while his title in the mandate (my phrasing) was War Cant Master or something.  That makes me feel Akka is a lot more dangerous on the offensive than the encounter with Cleric seems to suggest.

Indeed.  I mean, honestly, the list is pretty sketchy after Kellhus really, haha.  I still have doubts if Akka is stronger than any meta-Gnosic, Qirri or no Qirri, but he may well be stronger than any of the Nonmen left.  Or not, haha.  It's really difficult to place it all really, since we have such little information that doesn't involve some extenuation circumstance, like the Seswatha-spirit-inhabiting.

Back to Isterebinth, was there ever an approximation given on how many of The Tall there were?  Lastborn tells us a dozen "intact", but that doesn't seem to take into the account any of The Tall that may or may not be offended by the "Vile" circumstances taking place.

I don't recall there ever being an actual estimation of the number.  My guess would be something like, "no more than a handful" but that's based on nothing at all really, just the idea that there couldn't have been all that many to begin with.
Based on nothing concrete, I'd also say a handful. The Tall were nonman heroes, so it would make sense that there wouldn't be tons of them to begin with, and it doesn't seem like there are a bunch of "normies" left either (the dozen intact and about 100 that are about to step off the deep end in my estimation).
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on June 06, 2016, 12:28:49 am
Sorweel is easily becoming one of my favorite characters. He just has so much room to grow. I love when Orinaral explains to him that if he isn't for the Consult, then Kellhus is his Saviour. Reading that, you could almost feel the conflict in his mind in heart. Following him into the Holy Deep has to be some of the best visuals I've ever had reading a book, Ishtinbererith and the horrors of it, just comes to life. In my mind, what Sorweel has learned through Orinaral and finally Orinaus is enough for him to shed Yatwer's hold on him. I think that now he knows who the true enemy is, Golgoterreth.

Serwa is a bad, bad woman. Her singing and that keeping the Torturer at bay and at odds with his self was brilliant. I don't agree that she was doing any mundane singing there at the end when Sorweel took out the gag. My reading is that she is sacrificing herself to the wishes of her father, "show them my dread portion" i.e. the MetaGnosis. I venture to say only Sorweel and Moe Jr. make it out. If she does, I have absolutely no idea how.

Moe Jr. has just been transformed into his true father. Physically and mentally. Probably won't be much that will compare to the horror inflicted on him in Ishtinbererith. And, if he wasn't nuts before, well, look out.

I agree with Som that we'll see the Tall and what others who realize their folly come to the aid of TGO, on the Fields Appaling.  And, man what a scene that will be.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: profgrape on June 06, 2016, 08:45:35 pm
Serwa is a bad, bad woman. Her singing and that keeping the Torturer at bay and at odds with his self was brilliant. I don't agree that she was doing any mundane singing there at the end when Sorweel took out the gag. My reading is that she is sacrificing herself to the wishes of her father, "show them my dread portion" i.e. the MetaGnosis. I venture to say only Sorweel and Moe Jr. make it out. If she does, I have absolutely no idea how.
On my second red, I thought it was obvious that she was about to unleash hell.  I don't think it'll be a sacrifice, either -- I think she's about to make some bodies turn cold.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on June 06, 2016, 08:50:14 pm
On my second red, I thought it was obvious that she was about to unleash hell.  I don't think it'll be a sacrifice, either -- I think she's about to make some bodies turn cold.

How do you think she'll stay alive using sorcery with the collar on? You think the chorae will negate it somehow?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on June 06, 2016, 08:51:53 pm
Oh, when Orinaus is said to rip Sorweel in two, I'm assuming he ripped the Aimalos off of him, correct? Serwa, notes his face is flayed, yes?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: profgrape on June 06, 2016, 08:54:13 pm
On my second red, I thought it was obvious that she was about to unleash hell.  I don't think it'll be a sacrifice, either -- I think she's about to make some bodies turn cold.

How do you think she'll stay alive using sorcery with the collar on? You think the chorae will negate it somehow?
Yup, I think that's why Sorweel was holding it up to her.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on June 07, 2016, 12:07:12 am
Oh, when Orinaus is said to rip Sorweel in two, I'm assuming he ripped the Aimalos off of him, correct? Serwa, notes his face is flayed, yes?

Yeah, I think so. It is also a satisfying metaphor regarding ripping his amalgam soul in two.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: profgrape on June 07, 2016, 11:53:31 am
Oh, when Orinaus is said to rip Sorweel in two, I'm assuming he ripped the Aimalos off of him, correct? Serwa, notes his face is flayed, yes?
Yeah, I think so. It is also a satisfying metaphor regarding ripping his amalgam soul in two.
Any ideas on *why* the big fella decided to rip the thing off?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on June 07, 2016, 12:36:20 pm
Oh, when Orinaus is said to rip Sorweel in two, I'm assuming he ripped the Aimalos off of him, correct? Serwa, notes his face is flayed, yes?
Yeah, I think so. It is also a satisfying metaphor regarding ripping his amalgam soul in two.
Any ideas on *why* the big fella decided to rip the thing off?

My thought was as a Tall and ancient Nonman, Orinaus was disgusted to see a Nonman face on a Man. That was the only thought that came to mind when I read it. Like Sorweel wasn't worthy of it, or something.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on June 08, 2016, 08:16:56 pm
On my second red, I thought it was obvious that she was about to unleash hell.  I don't think it'll be a sacrifice, either -- I think she's about to make some bodies turn cold.

How do you think she'll stay alive using sorcery with the collar on? You think the chorae will negate it somehow?
I'm of the opinion that her ability to hide inside herself will somehow shield her from the collar. I don't think she's sacrificing herself, because if the collar were capable of killing her, then she would get out about half a cant before it did. And that wouldn't be much of a dread portion.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on June 08, 2016, 11:03:43 pm
On my second red, I thought it was obvious that she was about to unleash hell.  I don't think it'll be a sacrifice, either -- I think she's about to make some bodies turn cold.

How do you think she'll stay alive using sorcery with the collar on? You think the chorae will negate it somehow?
I'm of the opinion that her ability to hide inside herself will somehow shield her from the collar. I don't think she's sacrificing herself, because if the collar were capable of killing her, then she would get out about half a cant before it did. And that wouldn't be much of a dread portion.

Fair enough. Yea, I don't know exactly what the collar may do or won't. I like that idea, of hiding in herself. I thought occurred to me only to have it stripped away with a later realization. The Chorae, everyone was wondering where it came from and I thought, that's Sorweel's Yatwer gift, right? But, no, iirc, he gave that to Zsoronga. I thought maybe that would have some effect.

@Madness, yea, Sorweel will certainly not be hiding behind Yatwer anymore, at least you would think not. I'm really intrigued to see where this whole plot goes and especially Sorweel.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Nil Sertrax on June 14, 2016, 08:12:59 pm
I am firmly in the camp that Serwa's singing at the end is purely mundane.  Much is made of the spiritual, religious value of song to the Nonmen in one of the chapters.  She'll perform some Tragic ballad which will Dunyain-whelm all the Cunoroi.

Bingo!  We have a winner!

I'm nearly through my second re-read and I'm going through the Ishterebinth Chapters with a fine tooth comb.  I'm with H/P on this one and nearly 100% sure as well.  Bakker almost makes it explicit in the text.  I'll post the exact quote tonight when I have a chance but there are two parts that lead me to this conclusion. 

The first is when Harapior is taking Serwa to see the King.  I'm paraphrasing but he says that he knows she is Dunyain and thus everything she does is a trap.  He says that all her actions always conceal a "poison pin".  He then says that he has been consumed with thoughts of how she is manipulating them and, rhetorically, asks what would a King do when presented with the gift of a famous "songbird"?  His answer is "bid her to sing".  He then shoves the gag into mouth and says something to the effect that her poison pin has been avoided. 

The next part is when Serwa is strapped to the grating in front of the King.  We get a few brief sentences of her internal thoughts and feelings and the text states that this was the first time she had ever experienced genuine fear.  The text notes that she feels fear and shame for her failure and she also specifically thinks that "Harapior had guessed her plan".

If a mere sob from a gagged Serwa was enough to silence the audience chamber imagine the effect that her mundane songs will have on the gathered ghouls once her gag has been removed!     
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Nil Sertrax on June 15, 2016, 12:03:58 am
p. 320 ARC...

Lord Harapior:  "But then I know you are Dunyain...I know that every blunted edge you bare conceals a poison pin." 

"I was a fool for thinking that knowledge would make me your master...So now I'm suspicious beyond all reason.  I obsess, wondering where I might find the poison pin.  And I ask, What will my King do when he at last lays eyes on you?  What would any soul do when presented a famed songbird as a gift?"  He sneered.

"Of course, he would bid it sing."  He seized her head , jammed the silken sack deep into her mouth and throat.  She gagged and convulsed as someone human might.  His eyes gleamed for satisfaction.

"No voice," he said "No poison pin."

p. 329 The ARC

Serwa:  And it descended as lightning, the realization that she had failed.  Harapior had guessed her gambit.  Very soon, they would become the plaything of some decrepit and inhuman will , something to sin against and so purchase some brief term of sanity.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Blackstone on June 15, 2016, 02:46:51 pm
p. 320 ARC...

Lord Harapior:  "But then I know you are Dunyain...I know that every blunted edge you bare conceals a poison pin." 

"I was a fool for thinking that knowledge would make me your master...So now I'm suspicious beyond all reason.  I obsess, wondering where I might find the poison pin.  And I ask, What will my King do when he at last lays eyes on you?  What would any soul do when presented a famed songbird as a gift?"  He sneered.

"Of course, he would bid it sing."  He seized her head , jammed the silken sack deep into her mouth and throat.  She gagged and convulsed as someone human might.  His eyes gleamed for satisfaction.

"No voice," he said "No poison pin."

p. 329 The ARC

Serwa:  And it descended as lightning, the realization that she had failed.  Harapior had guessed her gambit.  Very soon, they would become the plaything of some decrepit and inhuman will , something to sin against and so purchase some brief term of sanity.
I think you make a good argument, but I'm not sure I agree. Were it mundane singing, I don't think "dread portion" would be an apt descriptor, but I've been wrong before.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on June 15, 2016, 03:12:36 pm
See, I still think that speaks to her being able to sing Sorcery despite the Agonic Collar. Metagnosis trumps Nonman Gnostic artifact.

She sings Ihrimsu while they torture her and Moenghus because she thinks that of course the Nonman King is going to ask to hear her sing. But Harapior takes that out of the equation entirely - why else gag her? He doesn't want her to sing Ihrimsu songs for the Nonman Court?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on June 15, 2016, 06:07:49 pm
zomfg  This thread will give me an aneurysm.  Inrilatas gives Maithanet the command to look upon Kelmomas using "his own portion" as if it's a shorthand for Dunyain abilities of observation and analysis.  Dunyain abilities = "show them my dread portion" = Mundane singing manipulation.

Also, despite whatever weird doubt there exists against Serwa's intellect and abilities, she is not stupid.  She speaks Ihrimsu, she knows what Oirunas was saying.  She knows that he hates the Inchoroi and the Consult.  The two chief toadies of the Consult WERE JUST KILLED—why?!—why would she attack any of the other Nonmen?

My read of some people here is that there is a fixation on the desire for the spectacle of sorcery and violence to resolve this cliffhanger.  And I remain adamant that there is —demonstrably so—no evidence that that is going to happen.

ty Nil Sertax for backing me up
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on June 15, 2016, 06:17:42 pm
Quote
Also, despite whatever weird doubt there exists against Serwa's intellect and abilities, she is not stupid.  She speaks Ihrimsu, she knows what Oirunas was saying.  She knows that he hates the Inchoroi and the Consult.  The two chief toadies of the Consult WERE JUST KILLED—why?!—why would she attack any of the other Nonmen?

This right here sways me more than how I read the scene did. I think why people, myself included, think that she is going to use sorcery is because the feel you got from reading the scene. I don't have book anymore, but there was a quote where she said that she was done with singing, or something along those lines. As the above quote says, why would she kill them after those two are dead? Intriguing.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Nil Sertrax on June 15, 2016, 06:35:35 pm
I can understand the other viewpoint but I don't think there is much textual evidence to back it up.  I believe the reference to "dread portion" is referring to the Dunyain's ability to manipulate through word and intellect.  Even without sorcery Kellhus was able to bend the holy war to his own ends.   That, to me, is a clear demonstration of the Dunyain's dread portion.

If I had to guess I would say that Serwa will overwhelm the gathered Nonmen when they hear this beaten and bound, yet still strikingly beautiful, women sing ancient laments about their lost wives and children in a voice that strikes emotional chords deep within them and clearly recalls the gut-wrenching tragedy of the womb-plague.  The emotional trauma that her song will deliver will provide enough clarity for the remaining Nonmen of Ishterebinth to rally together against the Vile. 

Just my $.02.  I can't wait until the next book when I'm proven right!  ;)  Or not...That's why these discussions are fun!           
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on June 15, 2016, 10:06:33 pm
zomfg  This thread will give me an aneurysm.

Lol - please don't have an aneurysm on the forum's account :).

The two chief toadies of the Consult WERE JUST KILLED—why?!—why would she attack any of the other Nonmen?

Well, Chief Toadies 1 and 2 can't have been the only ones who will fight to side with the Consult.

My read of some people here is that there is a fixation on the desire for the spectacle of sorcery and violence to resolve this cliffhanger.  And I remain adamant that there is —demonstrably so—no evidence that that is going to happen.

ty Nil Sertax for backing me up

There will always be different readings. The fact that there is overlap, agreement, between any of us at all is good.

If I had to guess I would say that Serwa will overwhelm the gathered Nonmen when they hear this beaten and bound, yet still strikingly beautiful, women sing ancient laments about their lost wives and children in a voice that strikes emotional chords deep within them and clearly recalls the gut-wrenching tragedy of the womb-plague.  The emotional trauma that her song will deliver will provide enough clarity for the remaining Nonmen of Ishterebinth to rally together against the Vile.

Just my $.02.  I can't wait until the next book when I'm proven right!  ;)  Or not...That's why these discussions are fun!           

Very poetic. I admit the possibility. Perhaps a reading of the ARC or canon artifact will solidify things one way or the other before TUC.

Agreed. Articulate dissent is better.

Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Walter on June 16, 2016, 01:41:12 pm
I think she's doing sorcery at the end.  Kill them all with her metagnosis.  She's had plenty of chances to sing mundane songs.  They didn't convert the Lord Torturer and his goons, and with what we know about how the Dolor works, they couldn't.  Their past selves aren't something they can regain, any more than you can get back your fetus-form.  The backup plan if Ishterebinth is for the Consult is that that Serwa kills everyone.

Now, obviously, this wouldn't work aside from the lucky fact that Sorweel & his confederates have inspired a legendary hero to destroy the puppet king and remove the precauations that prevent her form using her power, but Kellhus has never shied away from a plan that relies on coincidence before.  The end of the Thousandfold Thought hinges on similar coincidences.  Absent Akka showing up and ripping apart the Kildruhil, allowing Saubon the opportunity to assassinate Conphas and take over his army the First Holy War and Kellhus are both obliterated by the Imperial Saik.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 16, 2016, 04:01:09 pm
Well, Chief Toadies 1 and 2 can't have been the only ones who will fight to side with the Consult.

Most definitely.  Presumably the cadre of Quya that fought at Ishual were from Ishterebinth.  I doubt if the Lord of Swans was one of them, but maybe he was.  There had to be a least a couple handfuls that were though.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on June 19, 2016, 08:10:37 am
pfah!

I had no impression that Serwe was going to sing sorcery.

but if she were, poison pin obviously refers to a good old "Math Thesis Point" from the False Sun, and since both the glamour about Golgotteranth and the Agonic Collar were both wrought by Emilidis, and both probably work on similar principles of deflection/redirection (which is why it has to be a circle, an Agonic Collar or an ouroborian circle) then therefore a maththesis point (a poison pin, a key!) directed at the collar ought to disable it just as the glamour was disabled.

So that's how she can probably get out collar if need be, most sorcerors either direct sorcery outward (which just causes them to always miss and hit themselves) or at the collar itself (which likewise just always misses and hits themselves) but a maththesis point would not be able to be redirected.

Kellhus would have derived such a solution because he'd want to know how to get out of one as well.

But I think Hirtius is right and it is going to be 'mundane' singing that turns the court against itself.

On the other hand. The chorae theory could be correct,

"it bounced across the grill immediately before her, clattered through a wagging grove directly toward her face, oblivion promising oblivion. A Concussion wracked the platform, and, somewhere, an anchor snapped, and the whole dropped, tilted to her left. The Chorae chipped to a halt a mere cubit from her face. She followed the fingers clasped about the emptiness of the thing and saw Sorweel, his face blodded for flayed skin, his blue eyes fluttering as he strained to focus upon her..."

It sounds like the ending of the Momemn chapter, the chorae was meant to kill Serwe, just as the Yatwerian sent chorae falling out of the  ceiling of the andiamine heights were meant for kellhus. In the WLW version of the momemn scene, Yatwer even blinks the tears-of-god into existence herself, casting them at Kellhus. Given Yatwer is having all of the Anasurimbor children killed, I imagine the appearance of the chorae is like the appearance of the stork (twice?thrice) in Ishterebinth, direct intervention of the God. What happens here is that Sorweel has rejected Yatwere, and he reaches out and catches and stops the chorae from rolling and hitting Serwa,
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on June 19, 2016, 08:24:47 am
Much more importantly

Quote
They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…

my interpretation:

Cunoroi created the Hundred/The Gods --that's the great metaphysical whodunnit (we don't know the whydunnit yet)

And just like how the NoGod made slaves of its consult father, the Gods made slaves of their Cunoroi fathers

(where now are the dead fathers?,to quote TJE opener)

So that is why the Gods are referred to as SONS throughout the text of TGO, they are the sons of the Cunoroi. and this is why we haven't gotten creation myths of the world because its the key to the metaphysical whodunnit.

Perhaps this is also why the Nonmen seek oblivion, they're trying to hide from their mistake. and they don't want to destroy their greatest creation.

Also, Anarlû is probably the nonman name for Onkis, would be my guess. the goddess of the darkness that comes before. Her head is on a pole. hmm...

I'm guessing that Anarlu, she is the great creator of the universe. The Cunoroi hunted her down, killed her, cut off her head, and then created the 99 gods as described. The cunoroi then became the slaves, the bread, of their dread creation.

So then. Do the Consult come to exact vengeance upon the fools who condemned the universe to damnation, to exact retribution about the fools who killed the great goddess creator of the universe?

Did the Cunoroi do it because they wanted to raise up men above women. Thus SONS and FATHERS being the terminology used to describe the aftermath of their execution of Anarlu?




Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on June 19, 2016, 11:23:07 am
Lol. Well, I believe I can now count myself among the minority for Singing Sorcery. Too cool. I can't wait to revise my assumptions.

As per the second post - that shit is brilliant and, as per re-titling the subforum, just stuff that I can't think of myself :).

H or FB will love interacting with that one.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on June 19, 2016, 03:19:04 pm
Much more importantly

Quote
They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…

my interpretation:

Cunoroi created the Hundred/The Gods --that's the great metaphysical whodunnit (we don't know the whydunnit yet)

And just like how the NoGod made slaves of its consult father, the Gods made slaves of their Cunoroi fathers

(where now are the dead fathers?,to quote TJE opener)

So that is why the Gods are referred to as SONS throughout the text of TGO, they are the sons of the Cunoroi. and this is why we haven't gotten creation myths of the world because its the key to the metaphysical whodunnit.

Perhaps this is also why the Nonmen seek oblivion, they're trying to hide from their mistake. and they don't want to destroy their greatest creation.

Also, Anarlû is probably the nonman name for Onkis, would be my guess. the goddess of the darkness that comes before. Her head is on a pole. hmm...

I'm guessing that Anarlu, she is the great creator of the universe. The Cunoroi hunted her down, killed her, cut off her head, and then created the 99 gods as described. The cunoroi then became the slaves, the bread, of their dread creation.

So then. Do the Consult come to exact vengeance upon the fools who condemned the universe to damnation, to exact retribution about the fools who killed the great goddess creator of the universe?

Did the Cunoroi do it because they wanted to raise up men above women. Thus SONS and FATHERS being the terminology used to describe the aftermath of their execution of Anarlu?

That's just....just awesome, Locke. So, great to have your thoughts on the book.

I had figured and have been thinking that when I do get my ebook version delivered, that reading the boatmans songs would be my first task. I am sure there is a whole lot more to find in those tid bits.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on June 19, 2016, 04:17:34 pm
I was going to type out all three of the boat man's songs last night but was just too tired. That is the last one. A different one. After oinaral died
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on June 22, 2016, 05:31:31 pm
ahem

Quote
Rage--Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of fools
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Mouths open, arms thrown wide, we beseech thee:
Sing us the end of your song.


They did hoist Anarlû’s head high,
And poured down its blood as fire.
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety nine who were as Gods,
And so bid their fathers
Be as sons…
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: H on June 22, 2016, 05:57:51 pm
I'm guessing that Anarlu, she is the great creator of the universe. The Cunoroi hunted her down, killed her, cut off her head, and then created the 99 gods as described. The cunoroi then became the slaves, the bread, of their dread creation.

An interesting follow up to this, is that if it is true, if the Nonmen actually did create the Hundred (or the 99 left), how did the Men of Eanna know of them?  Unless perhaps the Nonmen were actually in Eanna, but left soon after fracturing the God, perhaps because they had fractured the God.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Triskele on June 23, 2016, 03:08:30 am
So fun to read everyone's thoughts.  These chapters were such a trip.  So satisfying after looking forward this entire series to seeing more of the Nonmen. 

What was up with the Clack.  Clack.  Clack?  It's probably something obvious, but I couldn't figure it out. 
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on June 23, 2016, 04:58:07 am
It's the chain links that pull the ship up and down clacking as they go through their mechanism
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Nil Sertrax on June 23, 2016, 11:29:31 am
Triskele,

What Locke said.  Think of the sound a winch or ratchet makes as it pulls a very heavy object.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Garet Jax on June 23, 2016, 03:08:10 pm
The "clack clack clack" reminded me of the sound a roller coaster makes right before the big drop in the beginning of a ride to build suspense before shit goes haywire. 


Due to my dislike of roller coasters, when I was reading that portion, I couldn't help but want to jump off the ride into the depths for fear of what happens during "the drop".
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Triskele on June 23, 2016, 07:20:59 pm
Ah,   thanks.  That whole segment had a River Styx vibe to it.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on July 02, 2016, 06:06:21 am
Was rereading TTT and came across this, the invocation of The Sagas that Esmenet reads:

Rage—Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our Fathers and our Sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From conceit that makes kings of fools,
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Mouths open, arms thrown wide, we beseech thee:
Sing us the end of your song.

Totally reminded of locke's musings on the Nonman songs—about Anarlu/The Gnostic Goddess Sophia being sundered and fractured to create material reality, or whatever.  A coincidence?—or nah?
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on July 02, 2016, 03:35:07 pm
Lol - this is actually one Bakker answered in the TGO ARC Author Q&A, HP.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on July 02, 2016, 07:04:59 pm
*Looks back and into the other thread   Bollocks. lol  Honestly, because locke didn't cite where he found it I assumed it was just another excerpt from TGO and not TTT.  I was super elated to think I had found some new detail.  Well this is pretty embarrassing.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Madness on July 03, 2016, 11:06:01 pm
Lol - no worries :).
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: SilentRoamer on July 04, 2016, 07:48:19 pm
Ok so thoughts:

Love the speculation on Serwa's intent. My initial reading was one that she was going to unleash fury but my subsequent read I was not so sure. A lot of reasons now (with the changed dynamics in Ishteribinth) for that not to be the case. Although I do expect that Metagnostic sorcery trumps Nonman Artifacts. Shae broke the Barricades wrought by Emilidis and he was only genius level intellect, not Dunyain level intellect. For all we know the Collars made by other Artificers might be like cheap knock offs.

I found the idea of some of the Mansions turning their backs on Men whilst others embraced them and the Mansions slow descent into Madness heartbreaking. For some reason I find the Ishteribinth scenes more tragically sad than horrifying.

The Tall are just awesomeness in a huge nutshell.

Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: MSJ on July 04, 2016, 08:17:37 pm
Emidilis is the one who fashioned the collar. Serwa's singing will not be mundane. I see the argument for it, I just don't see that happening. I recall in her inner dialogue being led to the throne room, she said the time for singing (mundane) was over.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: Wic on July 05, 2016, 02:22:29 am
I've flip-flopped on the mundane/sorcerous singing. I don't believe the metagnosis can, by it's very nature, escape whatever trigger the agonic collar has, since to my understanding it's simply the addition of a second inutteral.

Only thing I can think is that Kellhus designed a spell specifically to break a collar, and taught it to Serwa as a contingency. An inutteral that masks the others maybe.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: themerchant on July 11, 2016, 09:12:39 pm
I've not long finished, me recollection of that scene was she was about to use sorcery.
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on July 12, 2016, 07:41:44 am
I've flip-flopped on the mundane/sorcerous singing. I don't believe the metagnosis can, by it's very nature, escape whatever trigger the agonic collar has, since to my understanding it's simply the addition of a second inutteral.

Only thing I can think is that Kellhus designed a spell specifically to break a collar, and taught it to Serwa as a contingency. An inutteral that masks the others maybe.
Math thesis point spell used to overcome the barriers should be effective against other Emilidis manufactured artifacts such as the agonic collar.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ishterebinth
Post by: locke on July 12, 2016, 07:56:03 am
Yeah it does seem a bit like setting up sorcery, could be just a cop out though.


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