The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: Madness on May 15, 2016, 06:20:00 pm
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There are thoughts a-brewing.
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Cryptic statement is cryptic.
There was also that cryptic quote from Scott about how Malowebi was his new favorite character (https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/the-four-goads-at-the-crossroads/#comment-24022). I think interesting things will come and will probably be a rather interesting POV, if we get it. I mean, there has to be a Zeumi POV, right?
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As per a number of other threads, my guesses so far (no foreknowledge of authorial intent):
- Malowebi's doom is to "Watch."
- Malowebi's literal head might get a POV.
- Ciphrang-Malowebi may be experienced by a new Outside Zeumi POV, though at this point in the narrative, Bakker might just go for gold and do a Ciphrang-Malowebi POV.
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As we're discussing our favorite Zeumi sorcerer, did anyone else come away with the thought that the Mbimaya cant he uses included an Inutteral? I can't recall the specific wording but it was something like "secret words" that went along with what he was chanting.
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As we're discussing our favorite Zeumi sorcerer, did anyone else come away with the thought that the Mbimaya cant he uses included an Inutteral? I can't recall the specific wording but it was something like "secret words" that went along with what he was chanting.
I believe it was that he chanted and at the same time thought against his chanting.
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I believe it was that he chanted and at the same time thought against his chanting.
Indeed, that is how it is worded. However, in a sense, isn't the chalice, as a fetish, something of an inutteral?
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I believe it was that he chanted and at the same time thought against his chanting.
Indeed, that is how it is worded. However, in a sense, isn't the chalice, as a fetish, something of an inutteral?
In the sense that it helps to fix meaning in place, definitely.
Blackstone, thanks for the quote, I love the way that's phrased!
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I believe it was that he chanted and at the same time thought against his chanting.
Indeed, that is how it is worded. However, in a sense, isn't the chalice, as a fetish, something of an inutteral?
In the sense that it helps to fix meaning in place, definitely.
Blackstone, thanks for the quote, I love the way that's phrased!
No problem!
Is the fetish itself a magical artifact? Would it carry a stain?
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I believe it was that he chanted and at the same time thought against his chanting.
Indeed, that is how it is worded. However, in a sense, isn't the chalice, as a fetish, something of an inutteral?
In the sense that it helps to fix meaning in place, definitely.
Blackstone, thanks for the quote, I love the way that's phrased!
No problem!
Is the fetish itself a magical artifact? Would it carry a stain?
Yeah, Malowebi's sorcery is interesting. And I think that Kellhus is actually more intrigued by Malowebi's Ward than he is Meppa - though we had another thread regarding this where I feel like I've posted the same thoughts.
I believe I mentioned to H, I think that somehow Malowebi's sorcery doesn't Damn him by his use. That was my wild guess, anyhow.
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I believe it was that he chanted and at the same time thought against his chanting.
Indeed, that is how it is worded. However, in a sense, isn't the chalice, as a fetish, something of an inutteral?
In the sense that it helps to fix meaning in place, definitely.
Blackstone, thanks for the quote, I love the way that's phrased!
No problem!
Is the fetish itself a magical artifact? Would it carry a stain?
Yeah, Malowebi's sorcery is interesting. And I think that Kellhus is actually more intrigued by Malowebi's Ward than he is Meppa - though we had another thread regarding this where I feel like I've posted the same thoughts.
Agreed! He seems to be showing quite a bit of curiosity about the whole thing and seems relatively unconcerned about the actual battle.
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As per a number of other threads, my guesses so far (no foreknowledge of authorial intent):
- Malowebi's doom is to "Watch."
- Malowebi's literal head might get a POV.
- Ciphrang-Malowebi may be experienced by a new Outside Zeumi POV, though at this point in the narrative, Bakker might just go for gold and do a Ciphrang-Malowebi POV.
Oooh, that's right. When Malowebi asks Pstama about his fate, she says it's to watch. Nice catch. I do love the idea that he is the head on the pole behind him (Kellhus).
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It's possible, since there's a lot of 'time-jumps' in the book, that 'the head on the pole' could be Malowebi's.
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So, Kellhus's sword has indeed been ensorcelled, right? How else does he cut of Malowebi's head and manage to keep him alive? So Malowebi is destined to watch. Watch what exactly? When reading and Pstama said that was his destiny, I figured he would just switch sides to Kellhus and document the SA, like Akka did the First Holy War. Not the case. The head on a pole behind you is the best explanation I've heard so far. Or, he's just gonna be some dread standard that Kellhus keep with him at all times. I don't see that though, too easy, too cheap, to be something Bakker would do. I think you guys have hit the nail on the head with the head on a pole behind you.
So, Zuem is gonna come right over to Kellhus now, I would imagine. I figure in seeing Zuem sending ships to aid the Ordeal, as others have suggested. So, after the Ciphrang goes to Zuem to end the line of Zsoronga's family, do you think we'll see it go after Zsoronga himself? Interestingly enough, we didn't see him at all. And remember, he has Sorweel's chorae, and I have to believe that it will come into play at some point. Has to.
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I was having similar thoughts today. Zsoronga is somewhat indebted to Sorweel since he 'shamed' him. Sorweel is quickly coming to believe in the war against the Consult, so he may pressure Zsoronga to put the might of Zeum into the struggle. That will be the Second Great Ordeal (or whatever it will be called). The Second Investiture. Not sure how long that would take, though. Zeum is a singular country, and the Satakhan may hold great power over his people, or he may not. It could be months to years before Zeum marches/sails or whatever. I wonder how long the original Ordeal can siege Golgotterath for.
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So, Kellhus's sword has indeed been ensorcelled, right? How else does he cut of Malowebi's head and manage to keep him alive? So Malowebi is destined to watch. Watch what exactly? When reading and Pstama said that was his destiny, I figured he would just switch sides to Kellhus and document the SA, like Akka did the First Holy War. Not the case. The head on a pole behind you is the best explanation I've heard so far. Or, he's just gonna be some dread standard that Kellhus keep with him at all times. I don't see that though, too easy, too cheap, to be something Bakker would do. I think you guys have hit the nail on the head with the head on a pole behind you.
So, Zuem is gonna come right over to Kellhus now, I would imagine. I figure in seeing Zuem sending ships to aid the Ordeal, as others have suggested. So, after the Ciphrang goes to Zuem to end the line of Zsoronga's family, do you think we'll see it go after Zsoronga himself? Interestingly enough, we didn't see him at all. And remember, he has Sorweel's chorae, and I have to believe that it will come into play at some point. Has to.
I don't think it's ensorcelled. I think this is the original sword he has always carried, in which case, it is Dunyain steel and the Dunyain had no knowledge of sorcery. I read the whole thing as something to do with the soul sticking with the body for a little while after death. It's really his soul that is seeing the transformation.
As far as the head on the pole, Malowebi is as good an explanation as any I have heard (and we have seen that time is note necessarily a set thing in Earwa). I can't see him heading up to Golgotterath to go after Zsoronga, but maybe he will. If anything could make it through the sranc-infested wilderness alone, it's an M type Ciphrang.
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Well, yea, I know that it's Ishroiya(sp?). I was just thinking for it to be able to keep Malowebi alive that it might have been ensorcelled at some point. You know, when was the last time Kellhus has even used his sword? I can't recall that. Also, I believe Malowebi "head" is going to stay alive....on a pole......watching.
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I did find it interesting that Bakker thru Wert revealed the bit about Zeum having appropriated a Mansion. There are certain things that would do to offset Zeum sociocultural evolution comparably to the Three Seas (which suggests that Zeum, being one of five tribes, has a fairly small population to land area ratio) and that the dividends of a Mansion would be prevalent but not enough for it to be feasible for Zeum to dominate the Three Seas.
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I did find it interesting that Bakker thru Wert revealed the bit about Zeum having appropriated a Mansion. There are certain things that would do to offset Zeum sociocultural evolution comparably to the Three Seas (which suggests that Zeum, being one of five tribes, has a fairly small population to land area ratio) and that the dividends of a Mansion would be prevalent but not enough for it to be feasible for Zeum to dominate the Three Seas.
Is that a recent thing? I just read the account of the Cuno-Inchoroi War on Wertzone. I was stoked to see the locations of some of the other mansions. It really helped to put some things into perspective.
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Yeah, as I mentioned to you per our chat :). Bakker corresponding with Wertzone and such. Though, I was surprised that there was little new information in part two (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-2-age-of-man.html).
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I thought that perhaps he'd been turned into a Wathi doll or something acting on similar principles and that was how/why Kellhus commanded him to go and assassinate the Zeumi leadership. Basically a bigger version of Akka asking the Wathi doll to come and destroy the uroborean circle.
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I thought that perhaps he'd been turned into a Wathi doll or something acting on similar principles and that was how/why Kellhus commanded him to go and assassinate the Zeumi leadership. Basically a bigger version of Akka asking the Wathi doll to come and destroy the uroborean circle.
The way I read it is when Kellhus placed the decapitant's head on his body, then the Cphrang is bound by Kellhus's will since he killed it and brought it from the Outside. Of course, there probably has to be some sorcery involved there. Namely, I believe that Kellhus has had Ishroiya ensorcelled, since Malowebi's head still seemed to be "alive".
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I thought that perhaps he'd been turned into a Wathi doll or something acting on similar principles and that was how/why Kellhus commanded him to go and assassinate the Zeumi leadership. Basically a bigger version of Akka asking the Wathi doll to come and destroy the uroborean circle.
The way I read it is when Kellhus placed the decapitant's head on his body, then the Cphrang is bound by Kellhus's will since he killed it and brought it from the Outside. Of course, there probably has to be some sorcery involved there. Namely, I believe that Kellhus has had Ishroiya ensorcelled, since Malowebi's head still seemed to be "alive".
Part of what is confusing to me is that it seems like Malo's POV continues after his decapitation but with the Decapitant's head fused to Malo's decapitated body. It seems like Malo's POV ought to have ended when his proper head was removed and that Malo's body would now more-or-less be belonging to the Ciphrang.
Akka did talk about soul-trapping earlier in the book with Mimara...perhaps a set up of sorts for this saying that souls are exceedingly complicated...so maybe Kellhus' new assassin is somehow part Ciphrang and part Malo? That would be a crazy POV to have in the next book.
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I thought that perhaps he'd been turned into a Wathi doll or something acting on similar principles and that was how/why Kellhus commanded him to go and assassinate the Zeumi leadership. Basically a bigger version of Akka asking the Wathi doll to come and destroy the uroborean circle.
The way I read it is when Kellhus placed the decapitant's head on his body, then the Cphrang is bound by Kellhus's will since he killed it and brought it from the Outside. Of course, there probably has to be some sorcery involved there. Namely, I believe that Kellhus has had Ishroiya ensorcelled, since Malowebi's head still seemed to be "alive".
Part of what is confusing to me is that it seems like Malo's POV continues after his decapitation but with the Decapitant's head fused to Malo's decapitated body. It seems like Malo's POV ought to have ended when his proper head was removed and that Malo's body would now more-or-less be belonging to the Ciphrang.
Akka did talk about soul-trapping earlier in the book with Mimara...perhaps a set up of sorts for this saying that souls are exceedingly complicated...so maybe Kellhus' new assassin is somehow part Ciphrang and part Malo? That would be a crazy POV to have in the next book.
Which might explain why he said malowebi was his favorite to write
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Part of what is confusing to me is that it seems like Malo's POV continues after his decapitation but with the Decapitant's head fused to Malo's decapitated body. It seems like Malo's POV ought to have ended when his proper head was removed and that Malo's body would now more-or-less be belonging to the Ciphrang.
Well, that's why I said that I thought that Kellhus's sword had been ensorcelled (a la' Chipmunk maybe?) IIRC, we witness the decapitant's head being placed on Malowebi's body through Malowebi's POV of just his head. Its why I thought the Malowebi is the head on a pole theories were brilliant. Also, I think we're going to get more POV from just Malowebi's head. Didn't Ptsama say that his destiny was to witness?
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Ptatma did say that his destiny was to witness.
Heh, what if Malo-as-Ciphrang at least gets to take revenge in Likaro? Maybe Kellhus can give him that as a scrap.