The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: Blackstone on May 19, 2016, 05:12:10 pm
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I was just curious to know what parts of the book all of you found to be the most disturbing. My list in no particular order:
The whale mothers
Saubon's damnation and the link to the vision on Mangedda
Related - Kellhus abandoning Saubon at Dagliash
Kellhus banging Proyas (not for homophobic reasons, it just strikes me as disturbing what with all the mental anguish and the fact that Proyas has shown no propensity toward gay sex--I doubt sexual desire matters to a Dunyain)
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Well, at the moment of reading it, the Kellhus-Proyas scene, because I was absolutely not expecting it.
After the fact, it is obviously the whale-mothers, but we had theories like that floating around to gird us from the real impact.
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I had put it out of my mind, but the revelation of what Inrilatas did to Theli is also quite appalling and definitely jarred me.
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The decent into the depths of Ishterebinth. Exploding pigs and all those poor, crazy nonmen.
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The decent into the depths of Ishterebinth. Exploding pigs and all those poor, crazy nonmen.
This.
I feel that this chapter is Bakker in his prime. I was telling Wilshire, Madness, and MG the other day, that this portion of the book literally scared me. I could not stop reading though...
Also, as Blackstone mentioned, the rape of Proyas was so unexpected that I felt truly sorry for Proyas.
Those two parts of the book haunt me the most.
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I've not partaken in this topic because my output regarding the clarity of the narrative can only be skewed.
But... I wasn't so much appalled by much of the narrative as I had a good many ASMR (Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response) moments.
Like when Gilgoal calls to Celmomas. When Saccarees walks alone over the Horde. When Kellhus tells the Ordeal to run. When Oirunas comes to confront Nin'Ciljiras.
I will say though, overall, this is easily the darkest Bakker book short of Neuropath 8).
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Was rereading some choice bits of TWP for some resonance regarding Saubon. The episode on the Plains of Mengedda is fraught with so much more significance. And!—and in Caraskand when Saubon is ranting to Kellhus about he'd choose damnation and hell a thousand times over if he could only rule as king for a day. Fuck.
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This reflects my thoughts on Cil-Aujas and Ishterebinth. The aforementioned Saubon parts both become more poignant, somehow complementarily. As does the Slog through the dead Mansion with Cleric...
So cool.
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Well, we might well be sleeping on the appalling fact that Kellhus came back to save Esmenet and yet didn't?
If Somnambulist is right in his reading and seemingly, at least by my rereading, he is...
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After two reads, the part that sticks with me is Sibowal deciding walk across the bridge of Sranc corpses. It was somehow both horrifying and beautiful at the same time.
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After two reads, the part that sticks with me is Sibowal deciding walk across the bridge of Sranc corpses. It was somehow both horrifying and beautiful at the same time.
That seems so surreal to me, I couldn't really feel much but wonder...
So, am I really the only one that felt for Theli? Haha, I guess I really did have a thing for her...
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Well, we might well be sleeping on the appalling fact that Kellhus came back to save Esmenet and yet didn't?
If Somnambulist is right in his reading and seemingly, at least by my rereading, he is...
If it's true, then there may be a couple of explanations.
1) Kellhus, although he could probably sense the pre-tremors of the second quake (does that sound stupid?), couldn't have known the whole thing would fall down on top of her.
2) After Kel asks her "What have you done?" he's sort of written her out, maybe? He seemed to be shunning her in some way, after he saw she'd fucked up so badly (by killing Maithanet?). Dunno.
3) She was begging him to 'just end it' or whatever. He ended it, or allowed it to end. There was some dialogue (maybe between Proyas and Kayutas) where Kayutas was saying that Esmi seemed to be Kel's weakness in terms of his perceived concessions to her. She's some kind of divergence from the Shortest Path (or something like that).
Just some random thoughts. Don't know if any of them hold water.
BTW, I felt for Thelli, too. Her's was the saddest tale to me.
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Well, we might well be sleeping on the appalling fact that Kellhus came back to save Esmenet and yet didn't?
If Somnambulist is right in his reading and seemingly, at least by my rereading, he is...
If it's true, then there may be a couple of explanations.
1) Kellhus, although he could probably sense the pre-tremors of the second quake (does that sound stupid?), couldn't have known the whole thing would fall down on top of her.
2) After Kel asks her "What have you done?" he's sort of written her out, maybe? He seemed to be shunning her in some way, after he saw she'd fucked up so badly (by killing Maithanet?). Dunno.
3) She was begging him to 'just end it' or whatever. He ended it, or allowed it to end. There was some dialogue (maybe between Proyas and Kayutas) where Kayutas was saying that Esmi seemed to be Kel's weakness in terms of his perceived concessions to her. She's some kind of divergence from the Shortest Path (or something like that).
Just some random thoughts. Don't know if any of them hold water.
I'm kind of thinking some permutation of 3, because he walks away from her before the whole thing falls. Now, so, why did he walk away? Not just talk her and teleport away?
Could it be the cryptic mention of a Tear nearly missing him hindered his ability to teleport, meaning he had to talk away to do it? He could still have easily picked her up and walked away with her. But he didn't.
Then there is the whole weirdness with the repeating of her saying "Catch," a replay of when she threw the peach to him. "I let it happen" is a reference to the fact that she knew the assassin would kill her and she still allowed him in?
BTW, I felt for Thelli, too. Her's was the saddest tale to me.
Yeah, me too, because it is seemingly so senseless. Caprice for caprice's sake, almost. But not really, because we know that Inrilatas was just "heaping damnation" onto himself, his view of the Shortest Path. Still though, goes to show the power of crimes and then the great power, as we see it, of crimes against children. She really just had no chance.
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Well, we might well be sleeping on the appalling fact that Kellhus came back to save Esmenet and yet didn't?
If Somnambulist is right in his reading and seemingly, at least by my rereading, he is...
If it's true, then there may be a couple of explanations.
1) Kellhus, although he could probably sense the pre-tremors of the second quake (does that sound stupid?), couldn't have known the whole thing would fall down on top of her.
2) After Kel asks her "What have you done?" he's sort of written her out, maybe? He seemed to be shunning her in some way, after he saw she'd fucked up so badly (by killing Maithanet?). Dunno.
3) She was begging him to 'just end it' or whatever. He ended it, or allowed it to end. There was some dialogue (maybe between Proyas and Kayutas) where Kayutas was saying that Esmi seemed to be Kel's weakness in terms of his perceived concessions to her. She's some kind of divergence from the Shortest Path (or something like that).
Just some random thoughts. Don't know if any of them hold water.
I'm kind of thinking some permutation of 3, because he walks away from her before the whole thing falls. Now, so, why did he walk away? Not just talk her and teleport away?
Could it be the cryptic mention of a Tear nearly missing him hindered his ability to teleport, meaning he had to talk away to do it? He could still have easily picked her up and walked away with her. But he didn't.
Then there is the whole weirdness with the repeating of her saying "Catch," a replay of when she threw the peach to him. "I let it happen" is a reference to the fact that she knew the assassin would kill her and she still allowed him in?
The bit about the Tear didn't make any sense to me. I wonder if this was the WLW conflating his experience of Esmi narrowly missing Meppa with the Chorae. Kelmomas' POV certainly doesn't suggest that a Chorae was involved with that scene.
The thing that's really killing me, however, is where the broken sword fits in. Was that just part of a future that was disrupted by Kelmomas' intervention?
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The bit about the Tear didn't make any sense to me. I wonder if this was the WLW conflating his experience of Esmi narrowly missing Meppa with the Chorae. Kelmomas' POV certainly doesn't suggest that a Chorae was involved with that scene.
The thing that's really killing me, however, is where the broken sword fits in. Was that just part of a future that was disrupted by Kelmomas' intervention?
Hmm, did she say "catch" when she threw the Chorae at Meppa? Or for that matter, when she threw the peach to the Narindar?
The more we go over the scene, the less sense it makes really. The sword? I have no idea, where did it go? It was mentioned once and not again. basically. I am guessing Kel messed that up by shouting?
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She didn't say "catch" then. And as I've now dropped the ARC in the mail, I don't have it in front of me to check on whether she says it in the "peach" incident.
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She didn't say "catch" then. And as I've now dropped the ARC in the mail, I don't have it in front of me to check on whether she says it in the "peach" incident.
I too have mailed the ARC... I want to say that she does say catch in the "peach incident". Anyone with the text still want to chime in?
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What's with all this 'I mailed the ARC' stuff? Are you guys just sharing or...? Makes me feel like a selfish bastard holding onto mine. Mind you, I'm okay with that.
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What's with all this 'I mailed the ARC' stuff? Are you guys just sharing or...? Makes me feel like a selfish bastard holding onto mine. Mind you, I'm okay with that.
Ha ha. Yeah, I some of us sent our ARCs on to other guys on the forum.
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As I've said, it's a good thing I never had one because I'd be in the same boat as you Somna. But, yeah, most people who had one shipped it off to at least one else other
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She didn't say "catch" then. And as I've now dropped the ARC in the mail, I don't have it in front of me to check on whether she says it in the "peach" incident.
Yeah, I've been having coughing fits, so I literally think it is rattling my brain.
So, it was an apple, not a peach, and in either case Esmenetc wasn't even there.
I thought she had said it some other time, but she doesn't seem to have. On the sword, it only shows up in the italicized part where the White-Luck Warrior sees things how they are "supposed" to be, which incidentally is the only place Esmenet says "catch."
Reading it again though, I am pretty sure Esmenet is dead though. Or at least she certainly should be.
EDIT: OK, my delirium wasn't as pronounced as I believed, there was an incident with a peach and (presumably) Esmenet saying "catch" in the White-Luck Warrior interlude to begin Chapter 3.
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The bit about the Tear didn't make any sense to me. I wonder if this was the WLW conflating his experience of Esmi narrowly missing Meppa with the Chorae. Kelmomas' POV certainly doesn't suggest that a Chorae was involved with that scene.
The thing that's really killing me, however, is where the broken sword fits in. Was that just part of a future that was disrupted by Kelmomas' intervention?
Hmm, did she say "catch" when she threw the Chorae at Meppa? Or for that matter, when she threw the peach to the Narindar?
The more we go over the scene, the less sense it makes really. The sword? I have no idea, where did it go? It was mentioned once and not again. basically. I am guessing Kel messed that up by shouting?
The sword first comes up in WLW (bold mine):
In Gielgath, two thieves assailed him, and the White-Luck Warrior watched them scuffle, drunk and desperate, with the man who was their doom. They lurched out of the alleyway shadows, their cries choked to murmurs for fear of being heard. They sprawled dead and dying across cobble and filth, the one inert, the other twitching. He wiped his Seleukaran blade clean across the dead one, even as he raised the sword to counter their manic rush. He stepped clear of the one who stumbled, raised his blade to parry the panicked swing of the other... the switch that would notch the scimitar's honed edge -- as thin as an eyelid.
The notch that would shatter his sword, so allowing the broken blade to plunge into the Aspect-Emperor's heart.
It might be that he expected Kellhus to engage him in a sword fight that would lead to the blade breaking and the fragment sailing through the air into the Aspect-Emperor's heart. But then Kelmomas sort of borked the whole thing by introducing an element that was both outside the Inside and Outside?
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It might be that he expected Kellhus to engage him in a sword fight that would lead to the blade breaking and the fragment sailing through the air into the Aspect-Emperor's heart. But then Kelmomas sort of borked the whole thing by introducing an element that was both outside the Inside and Outside?
Yeah, something changed even before the throne room though, because I don't think he even had the sword with him at the time.
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It might be that he expected Kellhus to engage him in a sword fight that would lead to the blade breaking and the fragment sailing through the air into the Aspect-Emperor's heart. But then Kelmomas sort of borked the whole thing by introducing an element that was both outside the Inside and Outside?
Yeah, something changed even before the throne room though, because I don't think he even had the sword with him at the time.
I don't think he could even kill Kellhus that way...the guy plucks arrows out of the air. And wouldn't sorcerous wards protect from swords?
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I'd always chalked up that vision to working "because WLW". But you're totally right, conventional weapons appear to be useless against a powerful sorcerer due to their incipient wards.
It might be that the Chorae, the debris and the sword were all different potentialities that would lead to the AE's death. And Kell ruined it all.
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I found Ishual/whale mothers, Ishtinbererith and the Outside POV's to be haunting and very dark. Though, they don't hit me the way say, Thelli.
Srancy, wow! "To make a Dunyain cry.....that's no small feat." The revelations about what Inrialitis did to her and Kel pressing upon that, truly stopped me in my tracks. I felt so bad for Thelli.
Kellhus buggering Proyas, didn't sit too well either. I think we can chalk that up to the Meat or simply as Wilshire said in another thread, to show Proyas he was being used. Anyway, I felt for the guy.
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What's with all this 'I mailed the ARC' stuff? Are you guys just sharing or...? Makes me feel like a selfish bastard holding onto mine. Mind you, I'm okay with that.
What's with all this 'I mailed the ARC' stuff? Are you guys just sharing or...? Makes me feel like a selfish bastard holding onto mine. Mind you, I'm okay with that.
Ha ha. Yeah, I some of us sent our ARCs on to other guys on the forum.
As I've said, it's a good thing I never had one because I'd be in the same boat as you Somna. But, yeah, most people who had one shipped it off to at least one else other
Lol - Somnambulist :). What you think was happening with an influx of new ARC readers every weekish ;)? Such an awesome and unique little community.
Regarding the off-topic, White-Luck Warrior killing Kellhus, I mentioned before that I think there are a few major discrepancies in his visions across two books. It almost seemed as if the exactitudes didn't matter so much as the most probable happenings, considering his interventions in particular moments in time. Schrodinger's Warrior?
As for theories...
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I found Ishual/whale mothers, Ishtinbererith and the Outside POV's to be haunting and very dark. Though, they don't hit me the way say, Thelli.
Srancy, wow! "To make a Dunyain cry.....that's no small feat." The revelations about what Inrialitis did to her and Kel pressing upon that, truly stopped me in my tracks. I felt so bad for Thelli.
Kellhus buggering Proyas, didn't sit too well either. I think we can chalk that up to the Meat or simply as Wilshire said in another thread, to show Proyas he was being used. Anyway, I felt for the guy.
Yeah, Garet Jax mentions that Kellhus raped Proyas, which he absolutely did, but then I started drilling down on this, and it occurred to me: Kellhus is essentially raping everyone he has sex with. His intellect is so far above that of a normal human that it would always be rape even when they think they are consenting.
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You aren't wrong, Blackstone - actually something that the Westerosi picked up on years ago.
There is no consent with a Dunyain. Only submission.
Also, TVTropes, of course, has Mind Rape (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MindRape).
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Just remembered this.
Lol.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/34/18/de/3418de257f219e4c63d0cca8863646a2.jpg)
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Just remembered this.
Lol.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/34/18/de/3418de257f219e4c63d0cca8863646a2.jpg)
Ha ha. Nice! +1
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Lol - thanks.
I just realized you're a "Kellhus Apologist" and H calls himself "The Original No-God Apologist."
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How fucking awesome but sad/disturbing was Oinaral's foreshadowing of his own (possible) suicide with repeated mentions of "Nonmen don't commit suicide" the whole way down?
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My read on the WLW's prophecied killing of Kellhus.
He first throws a Chorae, which misses, but destroys Kellhus's wards.
Then he throws a sword, which Kellhus deflects...except that doing so snaps it (because it was notched), and the broken part plunges into his heart.
Both of these throws are screen by the room's debris, but just happen to fly unimpeded through the tumbling stones, shielded by them from Kellhus's sight.
Obviously, this isn't how it goes down, but that's what I thought he was forseeing.