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The No-God / Re: Any news from Bakker?
« on: September 15, 2019, 05:08:40 pm »
He's back
https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/
https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/
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How do you reconcile Iron Council with PSS/TS? Those other books are so descriptive and imaginative. IC seem sot be rather flat in comparison.
I think the general concensus seems to be that people really love IC, so it definitely seems I'm of the minority opinion .
Iron Council (Bas Lag 3) by China Mieville
In a word, disappointing. Mieville seemed to change his writing style dramatically, and it didn't work for me. His prose went from unique and powerful, to ordinary. The setting from brilliantly weird, to flat.
The first third of the novel is full Blood Meridian, which is a book I didn't like and a prose style that is the antithesis Meiville's earlier Bas Lag books. I honestly don't understand what he was trying to do here, maybe attempting to have more mass appeal? Book 3 of a weird series is not a great place for that. Try something drastically new? Again, book 3 - I don't read series because I'm hoping the author with drastically change their writing randomly in the middle.
As a stand alone novel, ignoring the fact that without the worldbuilding background it would be too confusing to appreciate, it would probably be OK. The magic was fun when it occurred, but given the nature of the universe, it was used in some pretty uninteresting ways to solve plats that didn't need to exist to begin with.
And that's a damn shame, because I loved Perdido Street Station, and The Scar was also fantastic.
But - I'm pretty sure events have not worked out as Kellhus intended. He doesn't know and cannot foresee everything, whether or not he thinks he can (and indeed as the writing leads us as readers to think he can at times). He has his limits based on what he is - still a human being, although a very gifted one.
He says something like "the Consult has to win" to Proyas before he dies, and Bakker himself said "Kellhus is dead, but not done". So, perhaps, the ground the world has to thread without Kellhus is still conditioned by him! Kellhus's conversation with Moenghus implied to me that he sought something "more" for humanity, by mentioning sharing the truth with them, though Moenghus immediately dismisses the possibility. Perhaps, he seeks to break the cycle of monstrous morality that grips Earwa, of gods who feast on the souls of almost *everyone*.
Though, his reaction to being defeated in the end seemed to be of genuine shock, so I don't know how much he expected what went down.
Secondly, Kellhus arguably actually enacts his visions of Moenghus' takeover. The Ordeal *is* led to "salt and butchery," even though I would argue Kellhus did have "noble" intentions [and didn't manufacture the Ordeal's various crises]. Paved roads to hell and all that .
How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.
When Iyokus is speaking to Akka when he has him captured he states that Skuarus planned past a defeat which is a sign of true intelligence.
What I mean by "it was Ajokli that was defeated", was that at Kellhus's death, it's Ajokli who is affected by Kelmomas, not Kellhus.
And it's arguable that Sorweel could've and would've killed Kellhus without Kelmomas's influence, so Kellhus sparing him in Esmenet's behalf got him further. He could've killed him afterwards, but what precise reason did he have? Outwardly, Kelmomas was never a threat to Kellhus.
And I don't think it's comparable, what happened with Moenghus. Moenghus couldn't have killed Kellhus even if he wanted (and Kellhus speculates that he'd try; he speculates on an alternative scenario where Moenghus, being Dunyain still, is inevitably converted to the Consult, kills Kellhus, takes his place as the prophet, and leads the world to slaughter); Kellhus possessed sight as a physical advantage, and though he hadn't yet reached the full height of his power, he was still the stronger magician with the Gnosis. So, for Moenghus, it wasn't a choice.
This is how I see it as well - though you introduce what seems to me a really interesting point. The Gnosis has so much power within the "mundane" part of reality, the "Inside", because that aspect of God's dreaming is cogent/ordered and aligns well with God's rational and thus mathematical aspect.
Or did I misunderstand?
Makes me wonder if there's more to Anagogis - I always wonder if there really is a Gnostic Daimos, given that it seems to me the Outside would fall beyond the remit of the precise description the Gnosis offers. Seems to me anything of the Outside (which is Inside in some sense iirc?) can only be grasped/leashed by way of analogy, in the way an engineer can master the external but it takes a poet to try and make a leap into the Abyss of the Internal toward the indirectly approachable but never achievable Zero-Person view....
It could be that the theorems of the gnosis just can't accurately describe Godlings from the Outside, similar to how science can't really explain why kids love cinnamon crunch.
Anagogic interpretation: dealing with the future events of Christian history (eschatology) as well as heaven, purgatory, hell, the last judgement, the General Resurrection and second Advent of Christ, etc. (prophecies)...
The literal teaches what God and our ancestors did,
The allegory is where our faith and belief is hid,
The moral meaning gives us the rule of daily life,
The anagogy shows us where we end our strife
anagogic or anagogical
adjective
of or relating to an anagoge.
Psychology . deriving from, pertaining to, or reflecting the moral or idealistic striving of the unconscious: anagogic image; anagogic interpretation
anagoge or anagogy
noun
a spiritual interpretation or application of words, as of Scriptures.
a form of allegorical interpretation of Scripture that seeks hidden meanings regarding the future life
ANAGOGICAL INTERPRETATION
The idea of "anagogical interpretation"—a kind of interpretation which moves, according to the Robert dictionary, "from a literal to a mystical meaning"—derives from theology. An anagoge is a mystical interpretation that implies spiritual elevation, convergence towards a universal symbolic meaning, and an ecstatic feeling. The notion was promoted by Herbert Silberer, author of Hidden Symbolism of Alchemy and the Occult Arts (1914/1971).
Anagogical interpretation relates to the "functional phenomenon" that Silberer defined on the basis of his observation of hypnagogic processes. Silberer described three levels of symbolization: somatic, material, and functional. The "functional phenomenon" pertains to the capacity for symbolic generalization: it facilitates the shift from "material" symbolization of the particular contents of thought to a general symbolization, in images, affects, tendencies, intentions, and complexes that reflect the structure of the psyche.
In psychoanalytic treatment, anagogical interpretation aims at strengthening the tendency to form more and more universal symbols, whose ethical value is also reinforced. Silberer claimed that the functional phenomena were bolstered in the course of an analysis.
This idea of interpretation as a generalizing idealization in the here and now is at odds with the Freudian conception based on the personal dimension, the erogenous zones, and deferred action. Freud recognized the utility of Silberer's hypotheses for explaining the formation of ideas and the dramatic character of dreams, but he criticized his extension of it to the technique of interpretation (as did Ernest Jones, who likened Silberer's approach to Jung's). Freud further rebuked Silberer for falling prey to the defense mechanisms of rationalization and reaction-formation.
In psychoanalysis, a mode of interpretation of dreams, myths, and other symbolic representations in order to reveal their higher allegorical or spiritual meaning. It is considered to be the opposite of ordinary analytic interpretation, which on the contrary reduces such material to its basic and often sexual content. Carl Gustav Jung (1875–1961) incorporated anagogic interpretation into his analytical psychology, but Sigmund Freud (1856–1939) rejected it as merely a reversion to pre-analytic notions (‘Dreams and Telepathy’, 1922, Standard Edition, XVIII, pp. 197–220, at p. 216). [From Greek anagoge a lifting up, from ana up + agein to lead]
QuoteSo the hollow could not be shut. Achamian nodded, wiped the last tear he knew would ever shed. He would be heartless now. A perfect man.Quote"Gasps and sputters filled the galleries of the First Temple. He waited for the uproar to subside, staring for what seemed an unblinking eternity at the otherworldly aspect of Anasurimbor Kellhus. His last student.
Somehow his gaze found Proyas, who looked so... aged with his beard squared. There was prayer in his handsome brown eyes, the promise of return. But it was far too late.
QuoteInto a golden labyrinth of horrors more vast than any Nonmen Mansion, where a student, who was more a son, gazed at him with horror and incredulity. A Kuniuric Prince, just beginning to fathom his surrogate father's betrayal.
"She's dead!" Seswatha shouted as much at the unbearable expression as at the man. "She's gone to you now! And if she lives, then what you find you will not keep, no matter how deep you think your passion!"
"But you said", Nau-Cayuti cried, his brave face broken in grief. "You said!"
"I lied".
"How? How could you do this? You were the only one, Sessa! The only one!
"Because I couldn't succeed", Achamian said. "Not alone. Because what we do here is more important than truth or love".
Nau-Cayuti's eyes gleamed like bared teeth in the gloom. This, Seswatha knew, was the look that had sealed the final heartbeat of so very many - Man and Sranc alike.
"And what do we do here, old teacher? Pray tell".
"We search," Achamian murmured. "We search for the Heron Spear".
Anaxophus repeats the words of the No-God. He won't take up the Heron Spear.QuoteThis isn't how it happens.
Into a golden labyrinth of horrors more vast than any Nonmen Mansion, where a student, who was more a son, gazed at him with horror and incredulity. A Kuniuric Prince, just beginning to fathom his surrogate father's betrayal.
"She's dead!" Seswatha shouted as much at the unbearable expression as at the man. "She's gone to you now! And if she lives, then what you find you will not keep, no matter how deep you think your passion!"
"But you said", Nau-Cayuti cried, his brave face broken in grief. "You said!"
"I lied".
"How? How could you do this? You were the only one, Sessa! The only one!
"Because I couldn't succeed", Achamian said. "Not alone. Because what we do here is more important than truth or love".
Nau-Cayuti's eyes gleamed like bared teeth in the gloom. This, Seswatha knew, was the look that had sealed the final heartbeat of so very many - Man and Sranc alike.
"And what do we do here, old teacher? Pray tell".
"We search," Achamian murmured. "We search for the Heron Spear".
For years now, and inexplicable sense of doom had hung upon the horizon, a horror that had no form, only direction... All men could feel it. And all Men knew that it bore responsibility for their stillborn sons, that it had broken the great cycle of souls.
Now at last they could see it - the bone that would gag Creation.
Bashrag beat the ground with their great hammers, while Sranc heaved in imbecile masses. They swallowed the surrounding plains, loping in armour of tanned human skin, gibbering like apes, throwing themselves at the ramparts the Men of Kyraneas had made of Mengedda's ruins. And behind them, the whirlwind... a great winding rope sucking the dun earth into black heavens, elemental and indifferent, roaring ever nearer, come to snuff out the last light of Men.
Come to seal the World shut.
The storm clouds firmed their grip on the sun, and all became twilight and thunder. Clutching their groins, the Sranc fell to their knees, heedless of the mannish swords that fell upon them. Then, through the snarling mouths of its children, Seswatha heard it, the million-throated voice of Tsurumah, the No-God...
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
"What," Anaxophus said, "do you see?"
This isn't how it happens.
Then he heard stern proclamations, the kind that made so many shiver with awe. And he recognised the voice of Maithanet, the Holy Shriah of the Thousand Temples. He could almost glimpse him through the concentric forest of pillars.
"Arise, Anasurimbor Kellhus, for all authority now resides in thee..."
A moment of silence, sullied by the gentle sound of weeping.
"Behold, the Warrior-Prophet!" the obscured Shriah bellowed. "Behold, the High King of Kuniuri!"
"Behold, the Aspect-Emperor of the Three Seas!"
The words winded Achamian as surely as a father's blow. While the Men of teh Tusk leapt to their feet, crying out in rapture and adulation, he staggered against one of the white pillars, feeling the cool of engraved figures pressed against his cheek.
What was this hollow that had so consumed him? What was this yearning that felt like mourning?
They make us love! They make us love!
"With me", Kellhus declared, "everything is rewritten. Your books, your parables, and your prayers, all that was your custom, are now nothing more than childhood curiosities. For too long had Truth languished in the vulgar hearts of Men. What you call tradition is naught but artifice, the fruit of your vanity, of your lust, of your fear and your hate.
With me, all souls shall find a more honest footing. With me, all the world is born anew!"
Year One.
..."Th old world is dead!" he cried out. "Is this what you say, Prophet?"
But he saw Kellhus, sitting leonine before a great hanging Cicumfix of white and gold, his hair flashing about his shoulders, his flaxen beard plaited. He saw him drawing the nets of the future, just as the Scylvendi had said, measuring, theorising, categorising, penetrating...
He saw the Dunyain.
"Esmi", Achamian said, his eyes and outstretched hand directed only at her. "Please..."
This was the only thing that could mean anymore.
"Akka", she sobbed. She glanced about, seemed to wilt beneath the rat gazes that encircled them. "I'm the mother of... of..."
So the hollow could not be shut. Achamian nodded, wiped the last tear he knew would ever shed. He would be heartless now. A perfect man.
Sh approached him - with longing, yes, but with wariness and horror as well. She clutched the hand he had held out, the that did not lean against his staff. "The world, Akka. Don't you see? The very world hangs in the balance!"
What will it be the next time I die?
With a savagery that both thrilled and frightened him, he snatched her left wrist, twisted and bent it back, so that she could see the blurred tattoo that blackened the back of her hand. He thrust her away from him
"I renounce!" Achamian roared, sweeping his scathing gaze across all assembled. "I renounce my station as Holy Tutor, as Vizier to the court of the Anasurimbor Kellhus!" He glanced at Nautzera, not caring whether the old man sneered or no.
"I renounce my School! he continued. "As an assembly of hypocrites and murderers".
"Then you sentence yourself to death!" Nautzera cried. "There's no sorcery outside the Schools! There are no-"
"I renounce my Prophet!"
Gasps and sputters filled the galleries of the First Temple. He waited for the uproar to subside, staring for what seemed an unblinking eternity at the otherworldly aspect of Anasurimbor Kellhus. His last student.
Somehow his gaze found Proyas, who looked so... aged with his beard squared. There was prayer in his handsome brown eyes, the promise of return. Bit it was far too late.
"And I renounce..." He trailed, warred with errant passions. "I renounce my wife".
His eyes fell upon Esmenet, stricken upon the floor. My wife!
"Noooo, she wept and whispered. "Pleeaase, Akka..."
"As an adulteress," he continued, his voice cracking, "and a... a..."
Then, through the sound of Esmenet weeping...
"Achamian!
Kellhus. Achamian did not condescend to turn, but he did pause. It seemed the future itself leaned inscrutable against him, a yoke about his neck, a spear point against his spine...
"The next time you come before me", the Aspect-Emperor said, his voice cavernous, ringing with inhuman resonance, "you will kneel, Drusas Achamian".
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.