[TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2016, 04:40:07 pm »
It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.

Well, the thing is, there aren't any more Sranc around, are there?

He says:

Quote
Seize them, Proyas.  Brint the Host to heel with whip and sword.  Take up its lust, fashion it as a potter fashions clay.  Consuming the Sranc has transformed its zeal into a living fire, one that only violence and victims can cajole and appease ..."
What was happening?  What was he saying?
"Something must be eaten ... Do you understand me?"
"I-I think ..."
"You, Proyas! You alone! You must make decisions that no Believer could."

I think they probably would still eat Sranc if there were any left really...

I took it to mean they would need to start consuming themselves.  The Cannibal Ordeal.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2016, 04:43:06 pm »
It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.

Well, the thing is, there aren't any more Sranc around, are there?

He says:

Quote
Seize them, Proyas.  Brint the Host to heel with whip and sword.  Take up its lust, fashion it as a potter fashions clay.  Consuming the Sranc has transformed its zeal into a living fire, one that only violence and victims can cajole and appease ..."
What was happening?  What was he saying?
"Something must be eaten ... Do you understand me?"
"I-I think ..."
"You, Proyas! You alone! You must make decisions that no Believer could."

I think they probably would still eat Sranc if there were any left really...

I took it to mean they would need to start consuming themselves.  The Cannibal Ordeal.

That's what I thought.  No Sranc --> Ordeal eats Ordeal.  UNTIL MORE SRANC SHOW UP OF COURSE!  Or Zeumi ships.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2016, 05:04:26 pm »
The Raft--> maybe when Kellhus heads back north he will just take a ship from the 3 seas, load it with some fresh faces and sail the sky.  It would be kind of cool for a battle with a dragon.

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« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2016, 05:11:34 pm »
That's what I thought.  No Sranc --> Ordeal eats Ordeal.  UNTIL MORE SRANC SHOW UP OF COURSE!  Or Zeumi ships.

Somehow I think Zeum has bigger problems...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2016, 05:20:23 pm »
That's what I thought.  No Sranc --> Ordeal eats Ordeal.  UNTIL MORE SRANC SHOW UP OF COURSE!  Or Zeumi ships.

Somehow I think Zeum has bigger problems...

that ciphrang is just going to make them get in line!  Kellhus is losing his fucking patience, so will just take the throne from them.

that's what i assume Kellhus has in mind: ciphrang in the form of Malowebi kills the king, takes the throne, puts Zeum at Kellhus' disposal.  the only thing is that Malowebi from in WLW says something to the effect that he's seen ciphrang running around before.  so maybe the kind of assassin Kellhus is sending is not unknown to the Zeumi/their school and they will be able to recognize it and resist

Christ, it just occurred to me that Kellhus ordered that ciphrang to end the 'line' -- maybe that ciphrang will be headed north?  or will turn north after killing the king in Zeum?

i wonder what it will mean if the decapitants are 'under Yatwer's jurisdiction' or something.  that is, that they might be sleeper agents, or will be able to resist Kellhus authority over them at some point.

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« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2016, 05:28:23 pm »
that ciphrang is just going to make them get in line!  Kellhus is losing his fucking patience, so will just take the throne from them.

that's what i assume Kellhus has in mind: ciphrang in the form of Malowebi kills the king, takes the throne, puts Zeum at Kellhus' disposal.  the only thing is that Malowebi from in WLW says something to the effect that he's seen ciphrang running around before.  so maybe the kind of assassin Kellhus is sending is not unknown to the Zeumi/their school and they will be able to recognize it and resist

Christ, it just occurred to me that Kellhus ordered that ciphrang to end the 'line' -- maybe that ciphrang will be headed north?  or will turn north after killing the king in Zeum?

My guess it is all part of him exterminating the Old Ways, in preparation of the new.  As for after that?  I don't know.

Thing is, I think they would see a Ciphrang, but would they see a Ciphrang/Malowebi hybrid?  Somehow I am thinking this is something akin to The Knife of Many Hands situation.  I don't know they will see through it...

i wonder what it will mean if the decapitants are 'under Yatwer's jurisdiction' or something.  that is, that they might be sleeper agents, or will be able to resist Kellhus authority over them at some point.

In rereading it, it seems that Kellhus animates the Decaptitant with his own blood.  I think it's loyalty is probably secure.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

mrganondorf

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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2016, 05:50:47 pm »
"exterminating the Old Ways" - nice!  i can't tell if what Kellhus did was special or just a run of the mill kind of possession.

will Kellhus walk around with Malowebi's head on his belt?  :)

it's interesting that he needed to groom Proyas for a special task, but he just lops off Malowebi's head.  it would be hella more convenient to just decapitate Proyas and tell the GO--follow this demon guy, it's holy because i said so, i'll be back before bedtime

what do you bet Kellhus put's Malowebi's head on his belt and glamors it so that M's head looks like one of the original decapitants and then we find out that the other head is already in play!!!

...

IT'S CNAIUR

Somnambulist

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« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2016, 06:02:02 pm »
then we find out that the other head is already in play!!!

I have a suspicion it was done before.  Lord Kosoter.
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2016, 06:19:21 pm »
I've been harboring my theory of Kellhus purposely removing the Lords and nobles of all the states to drag them to die in the Great Ordeal in order to assure that the Old Ways are not returned to afterward.  This Ciphrang Assassination just seems like the next step, since we know, through Zsoronga, that Zeum is quite fond of saying they have done things in a particular way for a long, long time...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2016, 08:20:11 pm »


I took it to mean they would need to start consuming themselves.  The Cannibal Ordeal.

Which contemporaries will call the Androphagia ;D

That's what I thought.  No Sranc --> Ordeal eats Ordeal.  UNTIL MORE SRANC SHOW UP OF COURSE!  Or Zeumi ships.

Somehow I think Zeum has bigger problems...

that ciphrang is just going to make them get in line!  Kellhus is losing his fucking patience, so will just take the throne from them.

that's what i assume Kellhus has in mind: ciphrang in the form of Malowebi kills the king, takes the throne, puts Zeum at Kellhus' disposal.  the only thing is that Malowebi from in WLW says something to the effect that he's seen ciphrang running around before.  so maybe the kind of assassin Kellhus is sending is not unknown to the Zeumi/their school and they will be able to recognize it and resist

Christ, it just occurred to me that Kellhus ordered that ciphrang to end the 'line' -- maybe that ciphrang will be headed north?  or will turn north after killing the king in Zeum?

i wonder what it will mean if the decapitants are 'under Yatwer's jurisdiction' or something.  that is, that they might be sleeper agents, or will be able to resist Kellhus authority over them at some point.

I also thought it might be turning north. Although we have no idea what's even up with Zsoronga (sp) at this point. We didn't see him for the entire book...If Tinnurit is the son of the King of Tribes, whose son is he really, because I don't think he is Cnaiur's.
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Madness

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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2016, 02:01:32 pm »
Lol.

I'm so out of practice. But this is good, it'll help to be reacquainted with this habit before school.

So rather than respond specifically because I'm actually overwhelmed by text right now I'm just going to pick out the themes of posts so far.

The Trap at Dagliash:

I remember in my first read through I thought for sure that Consult had captured Kellhus until I realized that he Translocated - like a passage later. "Flee! Flee! Each must save himself!" So awesome. I also enjoy that Kayutas heard Kellhus tell the Raft Party to flee from the back of the Ordeal's devolution.

But a timeline of sorts regarding strategy:

The Consult are obviously avoiding a direct engagement for as long as possible. As far as we have the Ordeal's side of tactical theory, it is believed that the Consult cannot contend with the combined sorcerous might of the Three Seas, especially the Metagnosis, which is a completely new development in the algebra of Earwan Warfare. That the Metagnosis exists at all is one of the few things the Nonmen of Ishterebinth work to verify when they interrogate the Hostages of the Niom in the Chamber of Endless Ingress.

So the Consult must do anything they can to sap the Ordeal's strength before this sorcerous conflagration to come - one denied to us since TDTCB - and they know the Great Ordeal will eventually draw the Horde. They try to use the Ten-Yoke Legion to take the Ordeal unawares but don't account Yatwerian intercession (something for another topic).

First Battle of the Horde: Consult - 0, Ordeal - 1.

Consult tries again at Irsulor. Since Kayutas made the choice to unveil the Swayali at the First Battle, the Consult have a little more understanding of how the Ordeal deploys the Schools. They secret Bashrag in the Horde and wait to deploy them until the Vokalati and the Mandate get lost in the Shroud above the Horde.

Second Battle of the Horde: Consult - 1, Ordeal - 0.

Now - as something of a strategy nerd - I really enjoyed TGO and the approach to Dagliash for the insight we have into Kellhus' tactical acumen (which is why I would love a Unifications Wars narrative, regarding how Kellhus conquers the Three Seas with the Mandate).

It's actually remarkably simple. Kellhus uses the Urrokas and Schools, the Neleost Sea, The Raft Party, and the Ordeal to box the entirety of the Horde in. Arguably, the Swayali are the most powerful School next to the Mandate and Saubon's forces are some the hardest Veterans of the Ordeal. Kellhus himself goes to Dagliash because he knows it is the only place where the Consult might catch him unawares.

If the Ordeal chases the Horde to Golgotterath, the Ordeal are just doing the Consult a favour. So the Consult knows that Kellhus must stop the Horde at Dagliash. They load up Viri's buried Mansion with Legions upon Legions.

Forgive that long-winded summary but it bears the crux of the matter. Given all that, the Consult either do or don't know that the Metagnosis is powerful enough to excavate Nogaral from the Viritic Well in which they buried Titirga...

Probably, since the Consult were willing to destroy the Horde with the Tekne-Nuke, they simply meant to take out as many of the Ordeal as possible. It's possible they knew which School Kellhus would bring to Dagliash but I doubt it. It's just another part of the Consult's strategy - to this point - which is take as many of the Ordeal out, bonus points for sorcerers, before the Ordeal reaches a place where the Consult must actually engage.

And as per the future, The Consult seems to intend to point the Scylvendi spear at the Ordeal's back... Whether Cnaiur is a Conphas or a Saubon, circa Shimeh, remains to be seen.

The Meat/The Cannibal Ordeal:

Lol - I'm still not convinced I understand what's happening with the Meat. I do side with those who feel that Kellhus has commanded Proyas to feed the Ordeal the Ordeal. I don't know why continuing to eat the flesh of Man would keep up the same effects as eating Sranc over time but there are other Sranc - both Saubon and Achamian comment on the Sranc wearing Consult epaulets at Dagliash and with the Scylvendi.

The Leper Ordeal:

In my read, it seems like Proyas and Hoga Gothyelk's son (don't have the draft on me to name check, is it Hogrim?) are arguing that the Leper Ordeal must continue to participate in the assault on Golgotterath, that not even the devastation and sickness at Dagliash frees the Leper Ordeal from their duty. And while I don't really understand what happened with Sibuwal Vaka at Pas-Erreot (or Wreoleth, if that was how it indeed was referred to in the ARC - as I mentioned, lots of little changes from draft to ARC regarding many adjectives and pronouns, which I find exceedingly interesting) but Vaka simply comes to the conclusion that he will continue to war against the Consult regardless what the Leper Ordeal decides and so leads that truly heartbreaking vigil across the dead Sranc to Agongorea.

Proyas/Saubon:

Kellhus actually foreshadows Saubon's death years and years previous to TGO as per a reminiscence by Proyas in the early chapters. Something about Proyas being upset with Saubon's conduct in the Unificiation Wars and Kellhus simply responded that he's "training warlords to die on wicked heights."

Again - I mentioned this in another thread but Kellhus literally name drops Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil when talking with Proyas after the battle. Kellhus seducing Proyas - for me anyways - mirrors Moenghus' seduction of Cnaiur. The love between a man and a man is anathema to the Galeoth, the Scylvendi, and the juxtaposition that the Dunyain create in the objects of their seduction results in a cognitive dissonance so extreme, at least in Cnaiur's case, that it enables/breaks Cnaiur to be capable of... well, anything.

Kellhus needs Proyas to be unconstrained.

I wonder if Proyas ever thinks back to that moment when he arrived at the beaches of Momemn and just wishes he'd fell off the launch, then and there, drowning in knee deep water ;).

Lol - that's one. Definitely not going to get through all of these this morning.
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Hirtius/Pansa

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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2016, 12:54:40 am »
Hanging out at a Commencement party, so I don't have much time to dither, will be back tomorrow in force. Saccarees being possessed by Seswatha and going out alone to confront Aurang was a supremely epic moment.

Saubon's death—all the chills.

"Does it trouble you, Proyas?  To know that Serwe burns in Hell."  Had to set my book down, that's how uncomfortable that line made me.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 02:23:39 am by Hirtius/Pansa »

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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2016, 01:02:15 am »
This is the one thing that's also been denied to Somnambulist and I.

There are now two or three one-liners that have been quoted to me that were since added, changed, as per the draft. Which is great for Future Som and I :).

Another MG read to me was Kellhus telling Saubon that he thought the Tekne-Nuke was a good thing before Translocating out of Dagliash... that's fucking gold.

The Great Ordeal, I think, is the darkest Second Apocalypse volume, thus far. Often when reading I thought about how the Second Apocalypse narrative has just wandered and found itself in the precincts of horror.
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2016, 12:19:10 pm »
I was so excited when Aurang came in.  Even more excited when Saccarees waded out to meet him.

Than I was disappointed, :(

But I am pretty sure Aurang was just baiting the trap further, even though, I still think that bomb was supposed to stay in the Well, not be raised above it.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Hirtius/Pansa

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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2016, 03:42:49 pm »
I've noticed your off-quotations, Madness.  There is no "beyond good and evil" namedrop when Kellhus and Proyas confer after Dagliash.  The line in the ARC is also "I'm training warlords to conquer Golgotterath" not "to die upon wicked heights" or what-have-you.  Both the early renditions of those lines would've been way too on the nose, not that isn't Bakker's forte sometimes.

Confirmation that the Newborn/Imburil = The Nail of Heaven.  Inchoroi wormhole, warpgate thingy.  But three years later till Arkfall?  And then the descriptions of the explosion happening before the Ark seems to descend?  Like they were clearing the way because they knew exactly where they wanted to land?

Dagliash built upon Nogaral upon Viri had me facepalming. It's so obvious and makes so much sense.  Didn't think that architectural connection had been speculated by anyone.  It certainly hadn't crossed my mind.

Going to articulate a very strange thought, one which I will have to parse by rereading the two Dagliash chapters.  I think Aurang wanted the Horde to be destroyed.  As soon as the Sranc became regarded for their utility as food, it would be far more beneficial to destroy them.  As long as the Horde is continuously shadowing the Ordeal, they have an unlimited food supply.  As Kascamandri made a shield of the Carathay many years ago by crippling the logistics/supplies of the Holy War, Aurang would make a shield of the Field Appalling.  Not sure if Sranc meat can keep, or if can still provide sustenance after being rotten, but even still—the Ordeal no longer have vast moving hordes of Sranc-cattle, they have to carry their own Meat, as it were.

I also think that secreting Weapon-races under Daglish/in Viri was not to ambush whoever took Dagliash but to lure them into thinking that the Consult was going to try and engage in somewhat symmetrical warfare.  The deception was pretending that they were even trying—Aurang intentionally threw the battle. The Tekne-nuke was just a sideshow, the ace in the hole was destroying the Great Ordeal's food supply.  Agongorea will do the rest.

Edit: I think Kellhus may have anticipated some of this, which is why I concur with others that he is preparing Proyas for the Cannibal Ordeal.  "Something must be eaten..."
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 03:45:06 pm by Hirtius/Pansa »