[TGO SPOILERS] Aorsi/Dagliash

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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2016, 04:44:20 pm »
Yeah, I think the Consult certainly wouldn't have minded dropping most of the sorcerers down the Well too, while they were at it, but indeed, they probably saw the necessity in exterminating the Sranc too.

Not that they ever really value Sranc lives (crunch all you want, we'll make more).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 04:54:04 pm by H »
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2016, 11:55:21 pm »
Yeah, lol that got me, too.  I was all WTF?  Can't say I grasp all the meaning from that, but at least part of it was a goad against Saubon.  Kellhus confers with both Exalt Generals, keeps them both in his confidence, spends time alone with them in his tent.  If it got out that he did that to Proyas, it would be assumed at large he'd also done it to Saubon.  And buggery is taboo to the Galeoth.  Maybe to keep control of their forces in the dire straits they were about to go through.  If anyone thought Saubon was going 'soft' there'd be mutiny.  Saubon would probably exercise more authority over his troops, exact greater control over them, just to assert more dominance in case anyone thought Kellhus had had his way with him, too. Maybe.

Or maybe Aspect-Emperors have needs, too.
I was to break his faith. He had to be heavy handed with him. It took many degradations to break his absolute faith, this was just one more.
Why Proyas and not Saubon? Because Saubon was to die at Dagliash. Proyas was always the one to take of the Ordeal after Kellhus left.
---
On The Meat, I certainly think Kellhus say this affect coming. He had 20 years, no way he didn't test it out and see what it did. Couldn't risk them all dying immediately or something else overly terrible.
I don't think Kellhus expected it to have such a deep affect on himself.
---

Did the thing Kellhus brought up from the deep the Nuke? For some reason I thought the two were separate events. Probably just read it too fast.
I have no issue with the Nuke. It basically already happened with the NG dying, nuclear fallout and such. As Blackstone said, as far as super-advanced-spacefaring-aliens go, nukes are pretty low tech.

It seemed to me like he was saying not to do it anymore.

Well, the thing is, there aren't any more Sranc around, are there?

He says:

Quote
Seize them, Proyas.  Brint the Host to heel with whip and sword.  Take up its lust, fashion it as a potter fashions clay.  Consuming the Sranc has transformed its zeal into a living fire, one that only violence and victims can cajole and appease ..."
What was happening?  What was he saying?
"Something must be eaten ... Do you understand me?"
"I-I think ..."
"You, Proyas! You alone! You must make decisions that no Believer could."

I think they probably would still eat Sranc if there were any left really...
I'm not sure what that implies. I don't see it meaning 'don't eat anymore sranc', but if there are not enough left... I guess straight up cannibalism is kind of all that's left.
But who gets to eat who? Sorcerers get to stay fat, the Ordeal will slowly starve, the wounded will be eaten. Gross.

---
2 if by Sea! Zeum will help!
---
then we find out that the other head is already in play!!!

I have a suspicion it was done before.  Lord Kosoter.

Ooo. Nice.

-----
Going to have to multi-post to keep my thoughts ordered.
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« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2016, 12:28:17 am »
Lol.

I'm so out of practice. But this is good, it'll help to be reacquainted with this habit before school.
Welcome back.

The Trap at Dagliash:
...
Second Battle of the Horde: Consult - 1, Ordeal - 0.
Shouldnt that be C -1, O - 1 now? Its a tie game.

Now - as something of a strategy nerd - I really enjoyed TGO and the approach to Dagliash for the insight we have into Kellhus' tactical acumen
These bits of insight are great, and watching him wield TGO so effectively is great.

Forgive that long-winded summary but it bears the crux of the matter. Given all that, the Consult either do or don't know that the Metagnosis is powerful enough to excavate Nogaral from the Viritic Well in which they buried Titirga...

Probably, since the Consult were willing to destroy the Horde with the Tekne-Nuke, they simply meant to take out as many of the Ordeal as possible. It's possible they knew which School Kellhus would bring to Dagliash but I doubt it. It's just another part of the Consult's strategy - to this point - which is take as many of the Ordeal out, bonus points for sorcerers, before the Ordeal reaches a place where the Consult must actually engage.

The Nuke is referred to as only 'the golden coffer'. I really didnt like that notation. Seemed really forced.
Which, to me, seemed to rise on its own accord, undamaged and touched by Kellhus until he sees it directly and takes control of it.
FYI, a Nuke would do far, far, more damage bursting way up in the air rather than down a well. Deep enough, and only an earthquake would have been noticed. Not at all the Consults goal. They needed it to raise from the Well.
It's my opinion that the Bashrag and the Chorae where entirely a sacrifice to the Nuke, not to mention the legions and legions of Ur-Sranc that were roasted before Kellhus even set foot onto Dagliash.

Also:
Quote
"What is it?" ... - Saubon
Three Heartbeats passed.
An Inchoroi Object. A Tekne artifact. - Kellhus
The Writing that glowers upon it ... What does it say? - S
That not everyone can be saved - K
What do you say? - S
The leonine profile lowered in contemplation, his gaze wet and rigid. .. His Savior turned to him, smiled what might have counted as an apology had they played number-sticks. "That this is a good thing" - K
 
Paraphrased.

Kellhus knows its going to kill a bunch of people, and he's fine with that. This read to me as trading a piece of the Ordeal for most of the Consult's horde - which Kellhus thinks is a fine trade. Might be the Meat talking, but I think Kellhus feels a bit bad that so many must die like this.
You have to feed an army. Smaller armies need less food. Wins all around.

The Leper Ordeal:

In my read, it seems like Proyas and Hoga Gothyelk's son (don't have the draft on me to name check, is it Hogrim?) are arguing that the Leper Ordeal must continue to participate in the assault on Golgotterath,
"In my read" - meaning specifically that they said this? No such conversation audibly takes place.

Vaka simply comes to the conclusion that he will continue to war against the Consult regardless what the Leper Ordeal decides and so leads that truly heartbreaking vigil across the dead Sranc to Agongorea.
Heartbreaking, aye. Much of that in this book. It's great that they all just decide to follow without understanding. Moving for the sake of moving.

Proyas/Saubon:
"training warlords to die on wicked heights."
 Beyond Good and Evil when talking with Proyas after the battle...
No such quotes

Kellhus seducing Proyas - for me anyways - mirrors Moenghus' seduction of Cnaiur. The love between a man and a man is anathema to the Galeoth, the Scylvendi, and the juxtaposition that the Dunyain create in the objects of their seduction results in a cognitive dissonance so extreme, at least in Cnaiur's case, that it enables/breaks Cnaiur to be capable of... well, anything.

Kellhus needs Proyas to be unconstrained.
Wow, that's a nice parallel I can't believe I missed. Fully agree.
Proyas the Unconstrained.

I wonder if Proyas ever thinks back to that moment when he arrived at the beaches of Momemn and just wishes he'd fell off the launch, then and there, drowning in knee deep water ;).
Oh man, I can see that too. "If only I had drown that day". Dying a few cubits from his future savior turned demon.

I was so excited when Aurang came in.  Even more excited when Saccarees waded out to meet him.

Than I was disappointed, :(

But I am pretty sure Aurang was just baiting the trap further, even though, I still think that bomb was supposed to stay in the Well, not be raised above it.

Haha, yes, what an extreme let down. But what a great line just before the Nuke. "The days are new Chigra ... And far shorter than the old"

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« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2016, 12:40:38 am »
I've noticed your off-quotations, Madness.
The Dolour takes him.

Confirmation that the Newborn/Imburil = The Nail of Heaven.
I didn't know that was in question, but yeah seems pretty clear now.

  Inchoroi wormhole, warpgate thingy.  But three years later till Arkfall?  And then the descriptions of the explosion happening before the Ark seems to descend?  Like they were clearing the way because they knew exactly where they wanted to land?
That was pretty amazing. Really makes it seem not like a haphazard landing - except for all the Inchoroi dead of course.
Also, it was and extinction level event, which I appreciate.

Going to articulate a very strange thought, one which I will have to parse by rereading the two Dagliash chapters.  I think Aurang wanted the Horde to be destroyed.  As soon as the Sranc became regarded for their utility as food, it would be far more beneficial to destroy them.  As long as the Horde is continuously shadowing the Ordeal, they have an unlimited food supply.  As Kascamandri made a shield of the Carathay many years ago by crippling the logistics/supplies of the Holy War, Aurang would make a shield of the Field Appalling.  Not sure if Sranc meat can keep, or if can still provide sustenance after being rotten, but even still—the Ordeal no longer have vast moving hordes of Sranc-cattle, they have to carry their own Meat, as it were.
History keeps repeating, and that's a great connection with Carathay. I didn't think of that before you said it, but I'm totally on board with that.

I also think that secreting Weapon-races under Daglish/in Viri was not to ambush whoever took Dagliash but to lure them into thinking that the Consult was going to try and engage in somewhat symmetrical warfare.  The deception was pretending that they were even trying—Aurang intentionally threw the battle. The Tekne-nuke was just a sideshow, the ace in the hole was destroying the Great Ordeal's food supply.  Agongorea will do the rest.
Agreed. They couldn't fill it with sranc, too hard to control. Had to fill it with Bashrag. Why not just leave it empty? Probably the Consult feared that Kellhus would be able to tell somehow that it was a false trap. They really needed something to look like a secret trap. Maybe they thought, hey if the bomb stays buried the Bashrag might pull a few down, but they big prize here is Kellhus. Cut the head from the snake.
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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2016, 01:28:00 am »
I've noticed your off-quotations, Madness.  There is no "beyond good and evil" namedrop when Kellhus and Proyas confer after Dagliash.  The line in the ARC is also "I'm training warlords to conquer Golgotterath" not "to die upon wicked heights" or what-have-you.  Both the early renditions of those lines would've been way too on the nose, not that isn't Bakker's forte sometimes.

You've rightfully admonished me. Though, the things it's teaching me about the writing process - super exciting. I can't wait to compare the draft to the ARC or the canon artifact line for line.

Going to articulate a very strange thought, one which I will have to parse by rereading the two Dagliash chapters.  I think Aurang wanted the Horde to be destroyed.  As soon as the Sranc became regarded for their utility as food, it would be far more beneficial to destroy them.  As long as the Horde is continuously shadowing the Ordeal, they have an unlimited food supply.  As Kascamandri made a shield of the Carathay many years ago by crippling the logistics/supplies of the Holy War, Aurang would make a shield of the Field Appalling.  Not sure if Sranc meat can keep, or if can still provide sustenance after being rotten, but even still—the Ordeal no longer have vast moving hordes of Sranc-cattle, they have to carry their own Meat, as it were.

Not that strange :).

I also think that secreting Weapon-races under Daglish/in Viri was not to ambush whoever took Dagliash but to lure them into thinking that the Consult was going to try and engage in somewhat symmetrical warfare.  The deception was pretending that they were even trying—Aurang intentionally threw the battle. The Tekne-nuke was just a sideshow, the ace in the hole was destroying the Great Ordeal's food supply.  Agongorea will do the rest.

Edit: I think Kellhus may have anticipated some of this, which is why I concur with others that he is preparing Proyas for the Cannibal Ordeal.  "Something must be eaten..."

There seems to be a consensus on the vastness of Agongorea that I hadn't perceived. It should just an entire plain of shattered glass, right?

Just don't eat the Leper Ordeal, Proyas...

Yeah, I think the Consult certainly wouldn't have minded dropping most of the sorcerers down the Well too, while they were at it, but indeed, they probably saw the necessity in exterminating the Sranc too.

Not that they ever really value Sranc lives (crunch all you want, we'll make more).

I've seen you invoke the "Well" a couple times now. I'm fairly sure the trick there is fairly mundane on the part of Shaeonanra and the Inchoroi (as I won't refer to him as Aurang because the appellation didn't occur until the Apocalypse :P). The Viritic Well is a giant hole with a "carpet" over it in the False Sun. There's no "echo of the ground" for Titirga to balance himself on when he falls through and then Shaeonanra and the Inchoroi bring Nogaral down the Well for good measure.

But who gets to eat who? Sorcerers get to stay fat, the Ordeal will slowly starve, the wounded will be eaten. Gross.

Just don't eat the Leper Ordeal.

then we find out that the other head is already in play!!!

I have a suspicion it was done before.  Lord Kosoter.

Ooo. Nice.

Lol - we've definitely had two separate threads kicking around regarding this on the forum ;).

The Trap at Dagliash:
...
Second Battle of the Horde: Consult - 1, Ordeal - 0.
Shouldnt that be C -1, O - 1 now? Its a tie game.

Never said I was good at keeping score :P. Though, as of TGO, Consult - 2, Ordeal - 1.

Forgive that long-winded summary but it bears the crux of the matter. Given all that, the Consult either do or don't know that the Metagnosis is powerful enough to excavate Nogaral from the Viritic Well in which they buried Titirga...

Probably, since the Consult were willing to destroy the Horde with the Tekne-Nuke, they simply meant to take out as many of the Ordeal as possible. It's possible they knew which School Kellhus would bring to Dagliash but I doubt it. It's just another part of the Consult's strategy - to this point - which is take as many of the Ordeal out, bonus points for sorcerers, before the Ordeal reaches a place where the Consult must actually engage.

The Nuke is referred to as only 'the golden coffer'. I really didnt like that notation. Seemed really forced.
Which, to me, seemed to rise on its own accord, undamaged and touched by Kellhus until he sees it directly and takes control of it.
FYI, a Nuke would do far, far, more damage bursting way up in the air rather than down a well. Deep enough, and only an earthquake would have been noticed. Not at all the Consults goal. They needed it to raise from the Well.
It's my opinion that the Bashrag and the Chorae where entirely a sacrifice to the Nuke, not to mention the legions and legions of Ur-Sranc that were roasted before Kellhus even set foot onto Dagliash.

Again - allowing for reconciliation between draft/ARC/canon artifact: the question for me is one of when? Because, as far as my read, it seems like it's more organic that the "golden coffer" is part of the Nogaral's debris that Kellhus is raising out of the Well to stuff all the "rotted ground" beneath Dagliash.

So is the "golden coffer" carried into the Mansion when the Consult send the Legions in or has the "golden coffer" been there since the False Sun?

Raises a new question, where's the damned Diurnal?

Also:
Quote
"What is it?" ... - Saubon
Three Heartbeats passed.
An Inchoroi Object. A Tekne artifact. - Kellhus
The Writing that glowers upon it ... What does it say? - S
That not everyone can be saved - K
What do you say? - S
The leonine profile lowered in contemplation, his gaze wet and rigid. .. His Savior turned to him, smiled what might have counted as an apology had they played number-sticks. "That this is a good thing" - K
 
Paraphrased.

Kellhus knows its going to kill a bunch of people, and he's fine with that. This read to me as trading a piece of the Ordeal for most of the Consult's horde - which Kellhus thinks is a fine trade. Might be the Meat talking, but I think Kellhus feels a bit bad that so many must die like this.
You have to feed an army. Smaller armies need less food. Wins all around.

Plus meatshield, meta-meatshield.

The Leper Ordeal:

In my read, it seems like Proyas and Hoga Gothyelk's son (don't have the draft on me to name check, is it Hogrim?) are arguing that the Leper Ordeal must continue to participate in the assault on Golgotterath,
"In my read" - meaning specifically that they said this? No such conversation audibly takes place.

Yeah, no, there was no dialogue. "In my read" referring only to the clear differences between the draft and ARC as mentioned across a number of my recent posts. But my sense of that passage suggests that the Leper Ordeal would have been happier to just lay there and die.

Also, is it even called the Leper Ordeal in the ARC?

Vaka simply comes to the conclusion that he will continue to war against the Consult regardless what the Leper Ordeal decides and so leads that truly heartbreaking vigil across the dead Sranc to Agongorea.
Heartbreaking, aye. Much of that in this book. It's great that they all just decide to follow without understanding. Moving for the sake of moving.

Onward to the horrible release of death.

Proyas/Saubon:
"training warlords to die on wicked heights."
 Beyond Good and Evil when talking with Proyas after the battle...
No such quotes

Indeed, HP mentioned above.

Kellhus seducing Proyas - for me anyways - mirrors Moenghus' seduction of Cnaiur. The love between a man and a man is anathema to the Galeoth, the Scylvendi, and the juxtaposition that the Dunyain create in the objects of their seduction results in a cognitive dissonance so extreme, at least in Cnaiur's case, that it enables/breaks Cnaiur to be capable of... well, anything.

Kellhus needs Proyas to be unconstrained.
Wow, that's a nice parallel I can't believe I missed. Fully agree.
Proyas the Unconstrained.

Even as I was rereading the new Ch. 1 excerpt, you might have substituted many of Cnaiur's mid-late TWP passages for Proyas's now. Wants to ride beyond all the madness. If only he could be alone with his thoughts.

I wonder if Proyas ever thinks back to that moment when he arrived at the beaches of Momemn and just wishes he'd fell off the launch, then and there, drowning in knee deep water ;).
Oh man, I can see that too. "If only I had drown that day". Dying a few cubits from his future savior turned demon.

Lol - he might have even merited consideration by the Gods then.

I was so excited when Aurang came in.  Even more excited when Saccarees waded out to meet him.

Than I was disappointed, :(

But I am pretty sure Aurang was just baiting the trap further, even though, I still think that bomb was supposed to stay in the Well, not be raised above it.

Haha, yes, what an extreme let down. But what a great line just before the Nuke. "The days are new Chigra ... And far shorter than the old"

As far as the series and TAE have gone so far I'm glad that he's saved the Consult until TUC-proper.

I've noticed your off-quotations, Madness.
The Dolour takes him.

Long ago.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 01:29:42 am by Madness »
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2016, 01:41:26 am »
Yeah, I think the Consult certainly wouldn't have minded dropping most of the sorcerers down the Well too, while they were at it, but indeed, they probably saw the necessity in exterminating the Sranc too.

Not that they ever really value Sranc lives (crunch all you want, we'll make more).

I've seen you invoke the "Well" a couple times now. I'm fairly sure the trick there is fairly mundane on the part of Shaeonanra and the Inchoroi (as I won't refer to him as Aurang because the appellation didn't occur until the Apocalypse :P). The Viritic Well is a giant hole with a "carpet" over it in the False Sun. There's no "echo of the ground" for Titirga to balance himself on when he falls through and then Shaeonanra and the Inchoroi bring Nogaral down the Well for good measure.

My initial feeling about the whole thing was to blow the top off the whole thing while the sorcerers were on top, then they'd fall down the Well, just like Titirga did.

That might not have really been the point, but that was my impression at first.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2016, 02:17:19 am »
I didnt consider the golden coffer to be the bomb until I came here. I thought Kellhus carried it off with him, but that just doesnt make sense.

As for When, I think it was carried in. But why bury it? They really set the fuse way too long I think. Should have just put it on top and detonated it as soon as sorcery smelled near.
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« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2016, 09:13:35 pm »
I didnt consider the golden coffer to be the bomb until I came here. I thought Kellhus carried it off with him, but that just doesnt make sense.

As for When, I think it was carried in. But why bury it? They really set the fuse way too long I think. Should have just put it on top and detonated it as soon as sorcery smelled near.
I think if they left it on the hill the sranc would have fiddled with it too much and accidentally set it off. There is also the chance that Kellhus would have immediately figured it out. Burying it may have been the only option, and we don't know exactly how deep it was. Maybe not deep enough to matter.

They should have had a wracu drop it from high up so there could have been an airburst.

I'm kind of wondering why the nukes weren't used in the FA. Maybe they didn't think they needed to waste them when they had the No-god and all. Or maybe it was a recent invention or discovery in the darkest recesses of the Ark.

Aurang: Shit, dude, I forgot all about this.
Aurax: I told you to check down here for it.
Aurang: When?
Aurax: Like five thousand years ago
Aurang: My bad
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« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2016, 01:21:51 pm »
I'm kind of wondering why the nukes weren't used in the FA. Maybe they didn't think they needed to waste them when they had the No-god and all. Or maybe it was a recent invention or discovery in the darkest recesses of the Ark.

Aurang: Shit, dude, I forgot all about this.
Aurax: I told you to check down here for it.
Aurang: When?
Aurax: Like five thousand years ago
Aurang: My bad

Well, there is the cryptic quote about there being two impacts during Arkfall.

One that burned everything, pushed up  the mountains.  Then the Ark fell into it.  So, perhaps they cleared the way with a nuke before landing?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2016, 03:14:44 pm »
I'm kind of wondering why the nukes weren't used in the FA. Maybe they didn't think they needed to waste them when they had the No-god and all. Or maybe it was a recent invention or discovery in the darkest recesses of the Ark.

Aurang: Shit, dude, I forgot all about this.
Aurax: I told you to check down here for it.
Aurang: When?
Aurax: Like five thousand years ago
Aurang: My bad

Well, there is the cryptic quote about there being two impacts during Arkfall.

One that burned everything, pushed up  the mountains.  Then the Ark fell into it.  So, perhaps they cleared the way with a nuke before landing?
Hmm. That's a real possibility. But why not use them at all during the FA?
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« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2016, 03:37:39 pm »
Hmm. That's a real possibility. But why not use them at all during the FA?

Well, that is the mystery.  All I can think of initially is that they only had two, so they didn't want to just spend the last one willy-nilly.

But even then, you'd think they'd have used it at Mengedda rather than expose the No-God.

So, I guess it must be "new" or at least cobbled together recently.  Perhaps that was all the material they could scrounge up though?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2016, 03:44:55 pm »
So someone may have recently built it. Someone with a great intellect.
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« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2016, 03:51:55 pm »
So someone may have recently built it. Someone with a great intellect.

I see you headed down a dangerous path here,  ;)
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2016, 06:52:15 pm »
The entire reason they made sranc (and had them eat grubs) was to avoid damaging the world so much that it would be uninhabitable. No point of winning free your garden of eden if you nuked it all to ashes, glass, and nuclear winter.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Blackstone

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« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2016, 07:02:13 pm »
The entire reason they made sranc (and had them eat grubs) was to avoid damaging the world so much that it would be uninhabitable. No point of winning free your garden of eden if you nuked it all to ashes, glass, and nuclear winter.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.
A fair point, but surely it seemed like desperate times at some point during the FA.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.