[TGO SPOILERS] Kiünnat and Zero

  • 64 Replies
  • 29392 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2016, 12:00:25 pm »
Me again, King of the Double Post.

I have a thought, which is probably nothing, but again, is something I alone am not smart enough to reason out.

At a point, the Nonmen discussing Sorweel mention he is under the influence of "the Fertility Principle" or as we know it, Yatwer.

This has me thinking, we are told that the God was fractured into the 100.  But why?  Well, we do receive possibly something of an answer, from Fane no less, in saying:

Quote
And naught was known or unknown, and there was no hunger.
All was One in silence, and it was as Death.
Then the Word was spoken, and One became Many.
Doing was struck from the hip of Being.
And the Solitary God said, “Let there be Deceit.
Let there be Desire.”
——The Book of Fane

Now, a question (of course) is why the God was split.  I think that is a question for another time.  But realize that what the God is split into is the urges (or Principles) of humans.  Why is there a God of Fertility?  The Gods don't need to be fertile.  Why is there a God of Thievery?  Why would the Gods steal?  These are all human attributes.

So, when the Nonmen say that Yatwer is the Fertility Principle, they are right.  It is a fracture of The God, which lends to Kellhus proclamtion, that Prophets deliver the word of Man to God, not the reverse.

OK, that isn't as lucid as it seemed in my head, but here is the point:  what about the Logos?  Is there a Logos Principle in the Outside?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Somnambulist

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Incontinent Water-bearer
  • Posts: 790
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2016, 02:17:31 pm »
This topic has me spinning a bit, as well.  There are a couple of allusions to the Hundred in TGO.

1) The Survivor collects 100 stones, throws 99 of them, gives the last to the Boy.

2) The last song the Boatman sings:
Quote
They did hoist Anarlu's head high,
and poured down its blood as fire,
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety-nine who were as Gods,
and so bid their fathers
be as sons...

Sounds a lot like a creation myth of the Sumerians, wherein one god (can't remember the name) is used for his blood to mix with clay to create man.  I've long suspected that the gods were created by man/nonman, and not the other way around.  Could be Anarlu is the God, and was sacrificed (somehow) to create the Hundred.  So, man/nonman broke God into a hundred aspects/fractions/principles to what... better understand It?  Anthropomorphize It?

Unsure how the stones relate, but the numbers can't be a coincidence.  Also, to get back to your question, seems like the Logos/reason/whatever-you-would-call-it could certainly be a 'principle' or a 'god', but probably one which is largely ignored by the common man (irony in there).  The Dunyain were probably the only ones to have 'revered' it to any great degree.  Maybe the great philosophers of Ancient and Near Antiquity, as well, but nothing on a mass scale like Yatwer or Gilgaol.

I think I just went severely off-topic, sorry.
No whistling on the slog!

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2016, 02:27:04 pm »
I think I just went severely off-topic, sorry.

There is no way to go off-topic in the topic, because I am barely sure what the real topic is!  ;)

This topic has me spinning a bit, as well.  There are a couple of allusions to the Hundred in TGO.

1) The Survivor collects 100 stones, throws 99 of them, gives the last to the Boy.

2) The last song the Boatman sings:
Quote
They did hoist Anarlu's head high,
and poured down its blood as fire,
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety-nine who were as Gods,
and so bid their fathers
be as sons...

Sounds a lot like a creation myth of the Sumerians, wherein one god (can't remember the name) is used for his blood to mix with clay to create man.  I've long suspected that the gods were created by man/nonman, and not the other way around.  Could be Anarlu is the God, and was sacrificed (somehow) to create the Hundred.  So, man/nonman broke God into a hundred aspects/fractions/principles to what... better understand It?  Anthropomorphize It?

Yeah, the number of stones is clearly important, yet, I can't figure why.

Could it be, that in killing himself Koringhus is now one of the hundred?  I don't know, that sounds preposterous.

Unsure how the stones relate, but the numbers can't be a coincidence.  Also, to get back to your question, seems like the Logos/reason/whatever-you-would-call-it could certainly be a 'principle' or a 'god', but probably one which is largely ignored by the common man (irony in there).  The Dunyain were probably the only ones to have 'revered' it to any great degree.  Maybe the great philosophers of Ancient and Near Antiquity, as well, but nothing on a mass scale like Yatwer or Gilgaol.

Well, that doesn't preclude it not existing though, does it?  I mean, it could still exist, just as a very, very minor power?

I don't know, I know this path is important, but I am stumbling down it blind and stupid.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Somnambulist

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Incontinent Water-bearer
  • Posts: 790
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2016, 02:53:38 pm »
Regarding K being one of the Hundred, I'm right there with you.  As I have been going on and on to Madness about, I believe Koringhus is, quite possibly, the most important character in the series.  He's the one who figured out Damnation, noodled out the Zero-God, figured it all out... then killed himself.  And we know his conclusions are true, because the Eye approved.  I definitely think he's in the Outside, pulling strings (and always has been, Time not being linear and all).  I think the final stone he gives to the Boy is merely symbolic. He (Koringhus) is the final stone, and he threw himself off the cliff (and into the Outside).  How's that for a crackpot?

We're all stumbling blind and stupid.  How one man can confound so many readers, after all this time, is preposterous and amazing to me.
No whistling on the slog!

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2016, 03:16:23 pm »
Regarding K being one of the Hundred, I'm right there with you.  As I have been going on and on to Madness about, I believe Koringhus is, quite possibly, the most important character in the series.  He's the one who figured out Damnation, noodled out the Zero-God, figured it all out... then killed himself.  And we know his conclusions are true, because the Eye approved.  I definitely think he's in the Outside, pulling strings (and always has been, Time not being linear and all).  I think the final stone he gives to the Boy is merely symbolic. He (Koringhus) is the final stone, and he threw himself off the cliff (and into the Outside).  How's that for a crackpot?

We're all stumbling blind and stupid.  How one man can confound so many readers, after all this time, is preposterous and amazing to me.

My thoughts are pretty much in line with your's.

On how we are all still stumped, I think part of it is how we are constantly missing the forest for the trees and then missing the trees for the forest.  Another part is how we are trying to figure out who has it right, when, really, they all have it wrong somehow.

But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Somnambulist

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Incontinent Water-bearer
  • Posts: 790
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2016, 09:50:03 pm »
Quote
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.

Truth.
No whistling on the slog!

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 12:01:35 am »
Lol - what's the new Koringhus-centric religion called, boyos ;)?

I'm withholding judgment on Somnambulist's hypotheses regarding Koringhus. And everything until I get to read the "full-colour TGO" as Somnambulist compares the ARC to the "black-and-white" draft ;). But previously, I didn't agree on Somnambulist's interpretation of the draft.

I do agree, there is some kind of Earwan creation story forthcoming that we've been previously denied - there have been threads regarding Earwa's lack of myths. I believe Somnambulist is talking about Tiamat, which actually doubles as "World Parent" and "Chaos" origins (Wiki has reacquainted me but I studied origins of civilization and mythology obessively when I was younger - love me some Mesopotamian cosmology).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 02:45:41 am »
Bah! Koringus is another broken, failed Dunyain. Though this time the mistake to imbibe Qirri took less time to be fatal than blinding.

Extremely important character? Yes. For the reason cited above. However, he was also deeply, deeply scarred by his years in the darkness. Qirri put him over the edge - though perhaps interesting to note his reaction in light of Kellhus imbibing chanv, which has similar intellectual quickening abilities. A slower death for Kellhus it seems.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2016, 02:42:56 pm »
Bah! Koringus is another broken, failed Dunyain. Though this time the mistake to imbibe Qirri took less time to be fatal than blinding.

Extremely important character? Yes. For the reason cited above. However, he was also deeply, deeply scarred by his years in the darkness. Qirri put him over the edge - though perhaps interesting to note his reaction in light of Kellhus imbibing chanv, which has similar intellectual quickening abilities. A slower death for Kellhus it seems.
Yes, we've gone from the Moe-God to Meta-K.

My opinion mirrors Wilshire here. Koringus had a part to play in the narrative, but I can't imagine he is anything more than what we have seen in this book. I don't think Kellhus will meet him in the Outside, and I don't think he will start directing events from the grave.
I will say that I am not entirely sure of what happened with his suicide (I probably need time to reread and digest it some more). Did he grasp the Absolute? Did he go insane from a combination of Qirri and learning that everything he thought he knew was false in the light of the Judging Eye? This seems the most likely.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2016, 03:35:32 pm »
I would be cool at some point to get a revelation like that, some ascended mortal being becoming the God in the outside... I think the mechanics and metaphysics of Earwa potentially leaves that door open, but I don't think I'll ever be the guy that 'saw it coming'. I'm in favor of more concrete explanations until Bakker gives us more metaphysics rules to speculate with. :)

Quote
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.

Truth.
He had some pretty deep insights in his brief stay with the world-born. And, he's crazy, which seems to be a key indicator of true revelations. I sure hope we get more from the boy about him.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2016, 03:52:45 pm »
Quote
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.

Truth.
He had some pretty deep insights in his brief stay with the world-born. And, he's crazy, which seems to be a key indicator of true revelations. I sure hope we get more from the boy about him.

Indeed, I have to wonder if he "role" was to show us the deepness of the "madness" that also afflicts Kellhus?

Especially as we see Koringhus display, what he himself calls, inexplicable compassion, in the same book as Kellhus seemingly inexplicably save Esmenet.  Granted, that isn't inexplicable, since we don't know Kellhus' long term plan with regards to Esmenet, but we do see it out of line with him not giving a damn about Theli being killed, or molested (previously), and so on with the rest of the kids though.  Even so, we have always had questions about just how compassionate Kellhus really is and then we are shown what Koringhus shows us.  Interesting at least.

It's an interesting juxtoposition of sorts though too, walking down the Anasûrimbor line, from Moe, to Kellhus to Koringhus.  Something is up with it, but I can't quite place what.  Moe being perhaps special in ability, Kellhus being remarked as especially a prodigy, and yet Koringhus seemingly being even more of a prodigy, yet that much more mad and finally his son, being "defective."

Is the point that Koringhus really was the pinicle of the Dûnyain work?  And at the pinciple is madness?  Something about what Cnaiür said all that time ago, how the Outside leaking into the world is madness?  Is that what is happening, perhaps?  That as the Anasûrimbor approaches the Absolute, madness afflicts them?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2016, 04:03:47 pm »
2000 years is a seemingly long time. Wonder if Ishual was a topos for all the enslaved women and the uncounted millions of slaughtered sranc.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Blackstone

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 241
  • Kellhus Apologist
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2016, 10:38:30 pm »
Quote
But that might be the whole point though, that Koringhus is the one who is the most right of them all.

Truth.
He had some pretty deep insights in his brief stay with the world-born. And, he's crazy, which seems to be a key indicator of true revelations. I sure hope we get more from the boy about him.

Indeed, I have to wonder if he "role" was to show us the deepness of the "madness" that also afflicts Kellhus?

Especially as we see Koringhus display, what he himself calls, inexplicable compassion, in the same book as Kellhus seemingly inexplicably save Esmenet.  Granted, that isn't inexplicable, since we don't know Kellhus' long term plan with regards to Esmenet, but we do see it out of line with him not giving a damn about Theli being killed, or molested (previously), and so on with the rest of the kids though.  Even so, we have always had questions about just how compassionate Kellhus really is and then we are shown what Koringhus shows us.  Interesting at least.

It's an interesting juxtoposition of sorts though too, walking down the Anasûrimbor line, from Moe, to Kellhus to Koringhus.  Something is up with it, but I can't quite place what.  Moe being perhaps special in ability, Kellhus being remarked as especially a prodigy, and yet Koringhus seemingly being even more of a prodigy, yet that much more mad and finally his son, being "defective."

Is the point that Koringhus really was the pinicle of the Dûnyain work?  And at the pinciple is madness?  Something about what Cnaiür said all that time ago, how the Outside leaking into the world is madness?  Is that what is happening, perhaps?  That as the Anasûrimbor approaches the Absolute, madness afflicts them?
I don't remember the exact wording, but did you take it to mean the Koringhus was the most gifted Dunyain ever, or that he was the most gifted at Ishual?

I think you have some good points here. I have been thinking about the scenes with Serwa and Kellhus (her memories) and it seems like he is displaying something approaching the tenderness that a father would show a daughter. Is this more Dunyain deception? I don't think so. She is old enough to recognize that his smile is for her benefit at one point in the recollection. It seems that if his tenderness was manufactured, he would recognize the point where he could drop the ruse.
Honor the Niom? Niom is my middle name.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2016, 12:10:30 am »
I think it was strongly implied he was the best in Ishual.  I'm tending to think now that each generation of Anasurimbor improves upon the last, incrementally. That or the dice roll on gene distribution for the last few generations was heavily favorible.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2016, 10:16:53 am »
I don't remember the exact wording, but did you take it to mean the Koringhus was the most gifted Dunyain ever, or that he was the most gifted at Ishual?

I think you have some good points here. I have been thinking about the scenes with Serwa and Kellhus (her memories) and it seems like he is displaying something approaching the tenderness that a father would show a daughter. Is this more Dunyain deception? I don't think so. She is old enough to recognize that his smile is for her benefit at one point in the recollection. It seems that if his tenderness was manufactured, he would recognize the point where he could drop the ruse.

Well, I can't recall it either, the ebook can't come soon enough, but that is definitely the sense I got.  Which makes some sense, if we consider that Kellhus was a prodigy as well.  I'll try to find it though.

I think part of it was genuine and part of it is deception.  Theli's theory of Kellhus is probably pretty close to the truth, supported by (what I think was) Kellhus own reflection that he is  the culmination of many different threads (or something like that).  Koringhus seems to be also, as we are presented with The Survivor, or different "places" that seem to speak through him.  Both are simply what they need to be when they need to be it.

I think it was strongly implied he was the best in Ishual.  I'm tending to think now that each generation of Anasurimbor improves upon the last, incrementally. That or the dice roll on gene distribution for the last few generations was heavily favorible.

Yeah, I can't recall exactly what lead me to the idea, but consider also that him and the boy are the only ones left alive, against insane odds.  That has to mean he is exemplary in at least some ways...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira