[Madness]

The Whale-Mothers didn't cause me the dissonance as it seems to have the Westerosi. I mean, fuck how they did it, that the Dunyain - and possibly the First Mothers (don't know if that made it into the ARC, though based on my conversation with H, I believe it remains) - were willing to condemn all subsequent female generations to this fate is equally disturbing, regardless of methodology.

The Tracery ritual doesn't preclude life-time breeding rights, does it? Also, it was those that pinned the most leaves as I recall, which is a task much more difficult than mapping the course of a single leaf.

And since no one has quoted Bakker's ad hoc response to Ruru, of the Westerosi, "most loyal online community" (had to get my snark out somewhere ), I'll do so now:

I get the idea of big picture credibility arguments, but these kind of disputes in fantasy fiction often strike me as opportunistic. You could argue the natural impossibility of any number of things in ALL fantastic narratives, so the question has to be why this one thing? If people buy skin-spies, why do they draw the line at whale-mothers?

I suppose I could just cook up a rationale: The Dunyain possess an artificially selected genetic mutation that only cues whale-mother dimorphism in the presence of estrogen in certain concentrations. After all, gender dimorphism is a characteristic of all species possessing gender (mammals included), in many cases far more radically than suggested here.

There’s better things to argue about, if you ask me. Such as the role played by the Logos, for one.

[Wilshire]

Not life-time breeding, I think it mentioned those getting older and no longer able to capture any leaves (probably those old guys over 25 years old with their slow APMs not being able to keep up  )
Though I don't recall it suggesting multiple leaves, just capturing the one was sufficient to breed for that season/month/day

Agreed, the "how" is not of particular importance. Assume that is could happen in Earwa, justify however you need to in order to get there. The implications are far worse. The conscious decision to make a cattle out of their women is a vile one.

[Madness]

Not life-time breeding, I think it mentioned those getting older and no longer able to capture any leaves (probably those old guys over 25 years old with their slow APMs not being able to keep up  )

24, friend. Stop trying to eek up the number as your birthdays come round .

[H]

The Whale-Mothers didn't cause me the dissonance as it seems to have the Westerosi. I mean, fuck how they did it, that the Dunyain - and possibly the First Mothers (don't know if that made it into the ARC, though based on my conversation with H, I believe it remains) - were willing to condemn all subsequent female generations to this fate is equally disturbing, regardless of methodology.

The Tracery ritual doesn't preclude life-time breeding rights, does it? Also, it was those that pinned the most leaves as I recall, which is a task much more difficult than mapping the course of a single leaf.

Yeah, there is mention of First Mothers, once I have the ebook, I'll find it.

Also, with regards to The Tracery, while I doubt if this is what Bakker was going for, there is something, in Earwan terms, for breeding for Luck, since there, as opposed to our world, it actually is a real thing.

Consider, that in Earwa, Luck is the favor of Anagkë.  Breeding those who Anagkë would favor, knowingly or unknowingly on your part, is highly beneficiary.  Pair that with the skill it would take to even get close in something such as The Tracery, it could actually be somewhat valid to getting superior specimens.

[Wilshire]

Bakker mentions on TPB about how the Logos is playing a role, and also alludes somewhere in there about subjective realities.

I wonder how those things actually do come into affect. How does the Logos and the Dunyain belief system shape their species?

[H]

Bakker mentions on TPB about how the Logos is playing a role, and also alludes somewhere in there about subjective realities.

I wonder how those things actually do come into affect. How does the Logos and the Dunyain belief system shape their species?

I think I speculated on it earlier somewhere, but if the way the Nonmen regard Yatwer, i.e. as The Fertility Principle, is true, then the Logos could be a God as well, the Rationality Principle?

[Wilshire]

Yeah, that there can be entities not described in the Tusk or worshiped/known by Men seems reasonable. Might be that the Consult removed that particular name from the Tusk. Its power would have probably grown with the Dunyain, but would probably have nearly vanished again without them.

[Madness]

Cryptic, vague, or otherwise obfuscated statements are a Bakker strong point .

EDIT: I do wonder, though, whether his comment regarding the Logos referred more to "I don't understand why that particular thing fixates a reading when the fallibility of the Logos and the Dunyain's flerwed world-tunnel are more important."

[MSJ]

The Whale Mothers.......the thing in these books that I could really give two shits about. Is it a horror? Yes. Do I think it an utter awful existence? Yes. But, I just feel that all the uproar about it, is just another way to ridicule Bakker. I said I wasn't a fan of the Axlotl tanks, and I'm not, but I do believe it was a great way to show the evilness of the Dunyain. Other than that, I could really care less if it's possible. I mean, is shooting Dragons out your hands possible IRL? No? Didn't think so. I find it absolutely hilarious when people want to attack any author of fantasy over things like this.

[Blackstone]

The Whale Mothers.......the thing in these books that I could really give two shits about. Is it a horror? Yes. Do I think it an utter awful existence? Yes. But, I just feel that all the uproar about it, is just another way to ridicule Bakker. I said I wasn't a fan of the Axlotl tanks, and I'm not, but I do believe it was a great way to show the evilness of the Dunyain. Other than that, I could really care less if it's possible. I mean, is shooting Dragons out your hands possible IRL? No? Didn't think so. I find it absolutely hilarious when people want to attack any author of fantasy over things like this.

Ha ha. Speak for yourself. I've been chasing the dragon...wait. I feel like you tricked me.