Earwa > The No-God
Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
ThoughtsOfThelli:
--- Quote from: Wilshire on August 02, 2018, 04:12:06 pm ---Its sad Iyokus never really came back. Maybe some soul wrenching suffering in the Outside.
--- End quote ---
Probably the only way we'd see him again, yes (maybe barring flashbacks?), as it doesn't seem like he'd be anywhere near "Ciphrang-level" of damnation. And I agree with you, Iyokus was severely underused during TAE - I know he was more important in PON, but still, we could have had at least one or two scenes with him during the Ordeal chapters. He was only mentioned a couple of times during TJE, TWLW and TGO and then came back to be killed by a Ciphrang. Sad.
Francis Buck:
I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).
It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.
ThoughtsOfThelli:
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on August 02, 2018, 10:05:35 pm ---I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).
It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.
--- End quote ---
I agree. I seem to remember a scene where Iyokus expressed his opinion during a meeting or something, but that was about it. For three books, he was almost entirely in the background. Which is indeed strange, considering this is a secondary character that had an important role in the last series and (which is maybe more relevant for TAE) that was Kellhus' tutor in the Daimos in between series.
It's possible that Bakker felt that he just didn't have the time to include anything with Iyokus along with all the other ongoing plotlines, but it's still disappointing. We just get a short scene with him (and he wasn't even referred to by name, which resulted in some people not even noticing that he died...) and then he dies. I haven't heard of any deleted scene involving him, though, so maybe dropping a possible Iyokus subplot (if it did happen) was an early decision?
Like you said, we had those scenes with Saccarees and Carindûsû. Iyokus' role in TAE is even smaller than that of Obwë Gûswuran (Mysunsai Grandmaster) and Temus Enhorû (Imperial Saik Grandmaster), who aren't that important as characters, but are at least mentioned frequently. It's almost a glaring absence, every single Grandmaster of a School in the Ordeal except for Iyokus (until his only and last scene) has a minor role.
profgrape:
--- Quote from: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2018, 10:21:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on August 02, 2018, 10:05:35 pm ---I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).
It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.
--- End quote ---
I agree. I seem to remember a scene where Iyokus expressed his opinion during a meeting or something, but that was about it. For three books, he was almost entirely in the background. Which is indeed strange, considering this is a secondary character that had an important role in the last series and (which is maybe more relevant for TAE) that was Kellhus' tutor in the Daimos in between series.
It's possible that Bakker felt that he just didn't have the time to include anything with Iyokus along with all the other ongoing plotlines, but it's still disappointing. We just get a short scene with him (and he wasn't even referred to by name, which resulted in some people not even noticing that he died...) and then he dies. I haven't heard of any deleted scene involving him, though, so maybe dropping a possible Iyokus subplot (if it did happen) was an early decision?
Like you said, we had those scenes with Saccarees and Carindûsû. Iyokus' role in TAE is even smaller than that of Obwë Gûswuran (Mysunsai Grandmaster) and Temus Enhorû (Imperial Saik Grandmaster), who aren't that important as characters, but are at least mentioned frequently. It's almost a glaring absence, every single Grandmaster of a School in the Ordeal except for Iyokus (until his only and last scene) has a minor role.
--- End quote ---
A couple of ideas on why this might have been:
1. He knows too much. As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story. So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat.
2. Optics. Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos. The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet. So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.
Francis Buck:
--- Quote from: profgrape on August 13, 2018, 03:19:24 pm ---A couple of ideas on why this might have been:
1. He knows too much. As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story. So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat.
2. Optics. Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos. The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet. So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.
--- End quote ---
Yeah I think your second point can work for sure, at least to explain his lack of presence during the strategy and councils and so forth (interesting, for example, how Iyokus doesn't even show up for moments like when the Believer-Kings gather or the Last Whelming -- I can't think of any reason off-hand other than what you suggest that would make sense for that).
Your first point is something I always flip-flop on with RSB. On the one hand, it's definitely fairly clear when certain POVs are held off (like the lack of an Aurang POV in all of TAE aside from a few snippets in TUC, presumably in order to avoid mention of the Mutilated), but at the same time he seems to have not have much of a problem giving a POV with very "selective disclosure". Pretty much every Kellhus POV in TAE does this, for example -- despite seeing his inner thoughts, to the extent of literally glimpsing his experience in the Outside, we ultimately are left in the dark about a great number of Kellhus's decisions and his ultimate plans or goals. Obviously part of this is just to secure the sense of tension surrounding the character and the Ordeal and so forth, but I think it extends to other characters as well. Serwa, for example, almost certainly knows about things we "aren't supposed to know" but RSB just avoids that stuff (or consider that, throughout all of the Aurang POVs in PON, up to and including the moments when he first realizes an Anasurimbor has returned, never once does he ruminate upon the fact that Kellhus's ancestor Nau-Cayuti was the freakin' No-God -- I know Aurang nor the Consult in general don't seem to realize the significance of using an Anasurimbor for the Subject, but still).
I wouldn't quite call this stuff "cheating", but it definitely cuts pretty close at times.
At the end of the day though I get the sense there just may not have been enough to warrant an Iyokus POV in general, as the only relevance he might have had was possibly, as you say, off limits. I think I was just expecting him to have a slightly larger role given his importance in the first series (his role is still pretty damn big TAE, arguably even bigger, but clearly there are details about the metaphysics and the Daimos which RSB is keeping mysterious, or just hasn't figured out).
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