[Triskele]

So are we now to take the "What has come before..." sections that say that Kellhus "went mad" quite literally?  That the creeping presence/voice of Ajokli made Kellhus a little less sane from the moment it found him and got worse the closer he got to the Ark?  Many had wondered how to interpret that statement.  Perhaps it had been "mad" from Moenghus' perspective, but now it seems more straight-forward?

[Walter]

I think Ajokli was eating him up from the inside throughout the series.  His vision during the 'tend the field / who better to burn them' is the most obvious incident I can think of, but I also think we get a hint of it at the point where he speaks to Proyas after bringing him to the Ordeal.

He declines to lie to him, stating that if he did so he wouldn't know why he was doing it.  That seems to imply that he is having trouble accounting for his actions, and is trying to tamp down on this tendency.  It would make a lot of sense if Ajokli is getting more and more uppity the closer they get to the ultra Topos that will allow him to take over completely.

[Hiro]

Yes. The question of Kellhus's sanity has been discussed at length, because it has been a lingering issue in the books. It turns out that he was going mad, i.e. he was being taken over.

[H]

Probably something akin to when Akka is telling Cnaiûr about how the soul is a pin-prick through existence:

Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside leaked into the world.

[Woden]

I was thinking something like that. When Kellhus heard the voices at the Circumfixion the leaking of the Outside increased for him.

[Madness]

Lol.

Aw yeah! Sweet, sweet interpretative victory.

[themerchant]

The funny thing is cnauir discounts that interpretation from akka, cause Kelhus contradicts it acts like there are no gaps.

[The Sharmat]

Madness is defined by schoolmen as the Outside leaking in. So I guess even though the voice is quite real, Kellhus is mad, since the voice comes from Outside. Or he had to go mad on the circumfix to be able to hear the voice.

Why does everything have to go in circles?

[Duskweaver]

Why does everything have to go in circles?

Ask Hofstadter.

[Wilshire]

Probably something akin to when Akka is telling Cnaiûr about how the soul is a pin-prick through existence:

Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside leaked into the world.

Very poignant now, post TUC.
Literal outside leaking in - Ajokli - caused by an actual event - circumfixtion.

[BeardFisher-King]

Probably something akin to when Akka is telling Cnaiûr about how the soul is a pin-prick through existence:

Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside leaked into the world.

Very poignant now, post TUC.
Literal outside leaking in - Ajokli - caused by an actual event - circumfixtion.

This thread has really helped me interpret TSA, as I shared Triskele's perplexity over the statements in the "WHCB" prologues concerning Kellhus' "madness". I have been stuck with my real-world view of madness as an inability to function or cope with everyday life (and committing the same error I've accused other readers of committing; namely, reading real-world conditions onto a fictional world). If I've got this right, going mad in Eärwa means being vulnerable to the Outside, which means being vulnerable to possession by the Gods.

[Wilshire]

I think that's the interpretation implied here, yeah.

Now, it gets confusing, when you separately consider Moenghus and WHCB.
Do we know, or can we assume, that Moenghus was using this particular Earwan definition of madness? I don't think he was. I really do think Moenghus' attribution of mad was something closer to meaning Kellhus has fallen outside the scope of what a 'normal'/'functioning' Dunyain would do.
The WHCB sections are very strange in that we don't have a particular POV/Author to guess at credibility, intent, and/or meaning. It seems to make sense to use Akka's definition of madness to help interpret what is actually going on with Kellhus.

Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Meaning, does one have to be right over the other?
To me, probably not. Moenghus had his son return to him from the wild gibbering on about hearing the voice of the No-God. Moenghus, at this point, would probably have a half way decent understanding of the No-God and the tekne to realize that this was a ridiculous notion - the NG doesn't speak to anyone as it is a thing without intellect (or something like that). He might not have had time to fully realize what exactly had caused this strangeness, he just knew that it was certainly not what he expected. That Kellhus was Akka-Mad - hearing Outside voices - doesn't preclude him from appear a more 'mundane' sort of mad to Moenghus.

Hmm, so maybe I've over complicated an explanation while still arriving at the same conclusion...

[H]

This thread has really helped me interpret TSA, as I shared Triskele's perplexity over the statements in the "WHCB" prologues concerning Kellhus' "madness". I have been stuck with my real-world view of madness as an inability to function or cope with everyday life (and committing the same error I've accused other readers of committing; namely, reading real-world conditions onto a fictional world). If I've got this right, going mad in Eärwa means being vulnerable to the Outside, which means being vulnerable to possession by the Gods.

Right, the prevailing idea would seem to be that madness is when the "Darkness" takes over more so than usual.  Now, that "Darkness" is actually ever-present and usually is a mix of the Outside and the simple cause and effect on the Inside.  When one's soul "opens" more though, it is influenced more by Outside and less by anything else and this is what it seems is termed "madness."

[BeardFisher-King]

No, I really appreciate your expansion of the idea, Wilshire. Dunyain "madness" vs Eärwan "madness". Great analysis, imho.

[MSJ]

Love, Esmenet was his only darkness..