[Francis Buck]

Now I like where this is headed.

If Ajokli is indeed the Voice for Kelmomas (and I fully agree there are many "voices" at play which are distinct from each other), then who exactly is Ajokli?

And even then, we know from RSB's Westeros.org Q&A that "Ajokli is not the one who's invisible".

How to reconcile all of this...

I posted in "The Gods" thread how it seems Ajokli is described as a companion of the Gods. I think Ajokli might be someone we know, someone that figured out a way to "ascend" you might say. Who that is, I don't know.

As to RSB's statement at Westeros, I think he was just alluding to the No-God or maybe even Kelmommas....

[H]

I never really considered Ajolki as anything else besides a god like Yatwer.  I guess it is possible, but Ajolki has presumably existed since all the other 100.  Perhaps we can consider  the backward time effect here, but then why not consider it for all the other gods too?

Seems like a Pandora's Box...

[themerchant]

i really like Ajokli. He showed wee Kel how to properly feck with someone.

For me it has to be Kellhus in some capacity directing him, as it is Kel warning/shouting "mommy" that makes Kellhus take "a single step" that then moves him out of the way of what the WLW thought was going to happen. Then the WLW is astounded , which is what Kellhus says in the scene before "you can see everything and be blind" "even the infinite can be surprised"

Then the next scene he is in Yatwer through the WLW is surprised.

This suggests to me either he knew it was going to happen or he made it happen, or he could just have been shit talking back to Yatwer and had no idea that what he said would come true later that day.

I also wonder what the real devotee of Ajokli had seen when he gutted the dove in the old way. He also talks about being blind i believe to the WLW.

[H]

Or maybe Kellhus is Ajolki?

[MSJ]

I never really considered Ajolki as anything else besides a god like Yatwer.  I guess it is possible, but Ajolki has presumably existed since all the other 100.  Perhaps we can consider  the backward time effect here, but then why not consider it for all the other gods too?

Seems like a Pandora's Box...

Me either, but it says it right there in the appendix. So, me thinks it's thrown in there for a reason.

@themerchant, see I always felt in that scene that Kellhus was just as surprised as the WLW. Without Kel screaming "mommy" Kellhus dies. Why the charade? Why would Kellhus control Kelmommas to say "mommy" so he can take a step and keep on living?

[themerchant]

I never really considered Ajolki as anything else besides a god like Yatwer.  I guess it is possible, but Ajolki has presumably existed since all the other 100.  Perhaps we can consider  the backward time effect here, but then why not consider it for all the other gods too?

Seems like a Pandora's Box...

Me either, but it says it right there in the appendix. So, me thinks it's thrown in there for a reason.

@themerchant, see I always felt in that scene that Kellhus was just as surprised as the WLW. Without Kel screaming "mommy" Kellhus dies. Why the charade? Why would Kellhus control Kelmommas to say "mommy" so he can take a step and keep on living?

Now this could be someone trying to help Kellhus, as opposed to Kellhus himself, but i think it was an attempt to dodge the WLW and it worked. Finding out how it worked will also give answers to how the god's work how you can sidestep fate.

Well the reason he controlled him was to dodge the white-luck, which he would be directly blind to, so he needed a warning which wee Kel provided by shouting.. Kellhus wasn't surprised he heard the voice then immediately took a step.

Wee Kel is there thinking with certainty his "role" in this is to "distract father"

"He would help-Yes! He would distract father.Yes!That was his role. That was how it had already happened. He could feel it,somehow,like an oracular density in his bones"

Obviously something happens and Kelmomas is central to it. The chronology could be viewed as this.

1. Kelmomas gets whelmed (maybe by Kellhus i went back and checked dates and it happened way before Skaparus) by Kellhus and then follows a bug to Ajokli where he makes some sort of pact.

2. WLW comes into the palace and Kelmomas uses the secret palace that Kellhus built (which doesn't seem like something he would need) to hide himself from him and monitor him. Where internally he is "certain" he is safe if he just keeps watching the WLW. Which he couldn't do without the secret palace.

3 Kellhus speaks to Yatwers spokesperson about how the infinite can be surprised.

4. The WLW is not only surpised he is "gawking...stupefied"

Other bits are Kel knowing about the ordeal, mages fighting sranc etc.

[profgrape]

It might be that Kellhus used Kelmomas to entice Ajokli, basically developed his own God-entangled agent.  So while Ajokli is the Voice, it's Kellhus who orchestrated the whole thing as a foil against the machinations of the 100.

[H]

It might be that Kellhus used Kelmomas to entice Ajokli, basically developed his own God-entangled agent.  So while Ajokli is the Voice, it's Kellhus who orchestrated the whole thing as a foil against the machinations of the 100.

A good point, perhaps that is a key to the full Thousandfold Thought, assessing and planning for the involvement of the gods?

[profgrape]

It might be that Kellhus used Kelmomas to entice Ajokli, basically developed his own God-entangled agent.  So while Ajokli is the Voice, it's Kellhus who orchestrated the whole thing as a foil against the machinations of the 100.

A good point, perhaps that is a key to the full Thousandfold Thought, assessing and planning for the involvement of the gods?

Maybe. Seems like either TTT or Kellhus' own discoveries would indicate that at some point, the Gods would act against an attempt to rewrite the World's metaphysics.

[H]

Maybe. Seems like either TTT or Kellhus' own discoveries would indicate that at some point, the Gods would act against an attempt to rewrite the World's metaphysics.

Thinking about it, that is another strike against Maith understanding the Thought, he is surprised by the god's acting to kill him.  I think it is safe to say that if he understood the Thought fully, he would realize what was going to happen/not be surprised by the narindar.

[themerchant]

I'm not saying Kellhus knew it would unfold beforehand, more like he had set up an alarm that would go off at a one point he couldn't anticipate directly. Then react to the alarm as opposed to preempting the threat.

If Uncle holy had one set up, Kelmomas would have been following the WLW and appeared, shouted something, then Maithanet would step to the side and the knife would slice through air.

That's the concept i'm trying to convey. I don't know who the voice is. It might be Ajokli working in cahoots with Kellhus cause Ajokli "can see"/ has knowledge of something the other gods don't. It might be samaras, again Kellhus found the healer that separated them, there is also an unspecified twin theme running through the books. Especially Kelmomas and Celmomas, who have dead twins "talking to them".

It could be Kellhus had nothing to do with it, but something saved him, and not many folk seem to want to do that lol.

As usual probably wrong.

[profgrape]

Right.  I don't think that Kellhus planned the whole thing out.  More that he set up Kel to be a sleeper agent.  Now that I think about it, I wonder if Kellhus foresaw the Gods attacking the Empire directly and that Kel is his ace-in-the-hole (or "shaved knuckle", as Quick Ben would put it).  Kellhus might have even Conditioned Kelmomas' obsession with Esme to make him the perfect protector.

+1 to "as usual probably wrong" :-)

[MSJ]

Right.  I don't think that Kellhus planned the whole thing out.  More that he set up Kel to be a sleeper agent.  Now that I think about it, I wonder if Kellhus foresaw the Gods attacking the Empire directly and that Kel is his ace-in-the-hole (or "shaved knuckle", as Quick Ben would put it).  Kellhus might have even Conditioned Kelmomas' obsession with Esme to make him the perfect protector.

+1 to "as usual probably wrong" :-)

You guys could very well be right. Kellhus certainly has his hand on everything else. My question is, why even introduce all the hubbbub about Ajokli?

[profgrape]

Right.  I don't think that Kellhus planned the whole thing out.  More that he set up Kel to be a sleeper agent.  Now that I think about it, I wonder if Kellhus foresaw the Gods attacking the Empire directly and that Kel is his ace-in-the-hole (or "shaved knuckle", as Quick Ben would put it).  Kellhus might have even Conditioned Kelmomas' obsession with Esme to make him the perfect protector.

+1 to "as usual probably wrong" :-)

You guys could very well be right. Kellhus certainly has his hand on everything else. My question is, why even introduce all the hubbbub about Ajokli?

It's a huge stretch.  But I think it all comes down to the fact that Ajokli's influences aren't perceived by the other Gods.  So by entangling Ajokli with Kelmomas, he creates an agent who's actions lie outside the Gods' purview.

[MSJ]

Right.  I don't think that Kellhus planned the whole thing out.  More that he set up Kel to be a sleeper agent.  Now that I think about it, I wonder if Kellhus foresaw the Gods attacking the Empire directly and that Kel is his ace-in-the-hole (or "shaved knuckle", as Quick Ben would put it).  Kellhus might have even Conditioned Kelmomas' obsession with Esme to make him the perfect protector.

+1 to "as usual probably wrong" :-)

You guys could very well be right. Kellhus certainly has his hand on everything else. My question is, why even introduce all the hubbbub about Ajokli?

It's a huge stretch.  But I think it all comes down to the fact that Ajokli's influences aren't perceived by the other Gods.  So by entangling Ajokli with Kelmomas, he creates an agent who's actions lie outside the Gods' purview.

So I'm other words. Kel is the Narindarnof Ajokli, but, Kellhus was the author of it. Knowing that when separating the twins it would give the Trickster the opportunity to sieze. I guess if H is right, the Voice and dreams would've directed Kellhus's thinking like anything else. I guess, me personally, I'd like to see another agency at work besides Kellhus. I think it very intriguing and mysterious why Ajokli might want to aid Kellhus.