[profgrape]

It may well be another agency and that would definitely be cool. 

The other thing that makes me think it might be Kellhus is his comment to Proyas about having certain resources in the ground in Momemn.  But I've gone horribly off topic. ;-)

[MSJ]

It may well be another agency and that would definitely be cool. 

The other thing that makes me think it might be Kellhus is his comment to Proyas about having certain resources in the ground in Momemn.  But I've gone horribly off topic. ;-)

Yes, and the quote themerchant provided from Kellhus to Ptsama, definitely is very good textual evidence that Kellhus is behind it. To me, in a way, it takes away from the story that Kellhus has solo much control over eveything. Yet, I think Locke might be right, that in the end there will be some detail that Kellhus overlooks that could be his undoing. As with Yatwer, the infinite can be surprised......

[Wilshire]

Yet, I think Locke might be right, that in the end there will be some detail that Kellhus overlooks that could be his undoing. As with Yatwer, the infinite can be surprised......

Its a central theme. I posted this in the quorum earlier but again:

Every major power in the book that has thought itself infallible has, so far, been toppled by something that completely blindsided them. Its a reoccurring theme, that no matter how powerful and omniscient someone/thing is, there is always something outside of their grasp.
The notable exception to this is Kellhus, though we might argue that the very last scene in TGO is confirmation that Kellhus isn't so omniscient.
Think about it. Cnaiur, Conphas, Xerius, Moenghus Sr., Maithanet, Yatwer/WLW, Titirga... Each, at the very pinnacle of their power, is brought down by something almost entirely unknown to them, usually to their ultimate demise.

[profgrape]

Yet, I think Locke might be right, that in the end there will be some detail that Kellhus overlooks that could be his undoing. As with Yatwer, the infinite can be surprised......

Its a central theme. I posted this in the quorum earlier but again:

Every major power in the book that has thought itself infallible has, so far, been toppled by something that completely blindsided them. Its a reoccurring theme, that no matter how powerful and omniscient someone/thing is, there is always something outside of their grasp.
The notable exception to this is Kellhus, though we might argue that the very last scene in TGO is confirmation that Kellhus isn't so omniscient.
Think about it. Cnaiur, Conphas, Xerius, Moenghus Sr., Maithanet, Yatwer/WLW, Titirga... Each, at the very pinnacle of their power, is brought down by something almost entirely unknown to them, usually to their ultimate demise.

Not dissimilar between what happens in our world -- things are too chaotic to grasp the whole.  Six-sigma events get us all in the end.

[Wilshire]

Six-sigma events get us all in the end.

lol. Yes. Those fringe cases. Wonder if six-sigma is a phrase most people would get though? Its not something I'd think came up much in your industry either , shows what I know.

[Francis Buck]

(Re-posting from the Koringhus thread since it's relevant to matters of the Soul/Spirit)

So, I actually noticed this almost immediately when reading TGO the first time, but didn't know what it meant/symbolized until now, having finally remembered to look it up.

As described in the text, the Boy/Survivor, son of Koringhus, has lost three fingers leaving only his index and thumb. Knowing the author's fondness for apophasis, I was reminded of (and just now learned the name of) Hindu and yoga gesture you've likely seen before. It is called the chin mudra.

The thumb and forefinger on each of the hands are joined, forming a zero. The rest of the fingers are extended. The hands are placed palms-up on the thighs or knees while sitting in vajrasana. This mudrā supposedly activates the diaphragm, making for deep "stomach-breathing" as the diaphragm pushes out the internal organs when it descends towards the pelvis on inhalation. Slow breathing in a 5-2-4-2 mentally counted rhythm (counting to 5 during the exhalation, to 2 while holding the breath, and to 4 on the inhalation) causes prana flow in the pelvis and in the legs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudra

Also...

Chin means consciousness in Sanskrit, and the purpose of this mudra is to remind the practitioner of the goal of yoga, the union of the individual soul with the supreme soul. Mudra means seal, and it is essentially an energetic and spiritual gesture that controls the flow of energy within the body. The fingers each have representations:

Thumb: Supreme Soul
Pointer: Individual Soul
Middle: Ego
Ring: Illusion
Pinky: Karma

Ego, illusion and karma are the 3 impurities that the yogi is trying to remove from his life in order to unite their Individual Soul with the Supreme Soul and experience that divine, blissful state of union they strive for. Doing chin mudra is a physical representation and reminder of this goal and serves to refocus and re-energize the practitioner.

http://thechalkboardmag.com/mantra-monday-chin-mudra

I think that the "Supreme Soul" and "Individual Soul" are directly relatable to what Kellhus references with Greater Proyas and Lesser Proyas.

This opens a lot of doors. Karma, in fact, may be what Mimara sees as "Judgement" -- an otherwise invisible accumulation of "weight" incurred by a souls mere existence and movement (life) throughout the world.

Also, even though the distinction has yet to be made in-text, I think that Souls may be the lesser/individual souls, while a Spirit is the greater/supreme soul -- Gods, Ciphrang, and so forth.

Perhaps Seswatha himself (or itself) is one of these Supreme Souls, distributed through many Individual Souls via the Heart...

[Wilshire]

I'm digging your symbology work FB. That's a nice find.

[themerchant]

Following onto that, when Kellhus is trying to see his father through the water all he can see is "two fingers and thumb" and the thumbnail gleamed.

[H]

Following onto that, when Kellhus is trying to see his father through the water all he can see is "two fingers and thumb" and the thumbnail gleamed.

Crazy, the thumb being the representation of the "supreme soul."

So, what does it mean?  That Moe's soul was shining?  Or is it the god shining through him?

[Wilshire]

Nah, just means he was in a meditative posture.

[H]

Nah, just means he was in a meditative posture.

Sure, but then why bother mentioning the thumbnail gleaming?

[Monkhound]

If my memory serves,  the gleaming comes from light refracting in the water. There was something about water coming out of Moe's eyes in that scene.

Edit: I can't look it up. I lent my copy of TTT to a friend.

[H]

If my memory serves,  the gleaming comes from light refracting in the water. There was something about water coming out of Moe's eyes in that scene.

Edit: I can't look it up. I lent my copy of TTT to a friend.

I guess you are recalling this?

“Nations live as Men act,” Moënghus said, his voice refracted through the ambient rush of waters. “Men act as they believe. And Men believe as they are conditioned. Since they are blind to their conditioning, they do not doubt their intuitions …”
Kellhus nodded in wary assent. “They believe absolutely,” he said.

But that's his voice, not any light.  That is the two lines that preceded this:

All Kellhus could see of his father were two fingers and a thumb lying slack upon a bare thigh. The thumbnail gleamed.

So, the question is, why would you, as a writer, craft a sentence who's only point is the tell that a thumbnail gleamed, if it was meaningless?

[Wilshire]

Stripping things down too much is as obfuscating as looking at things too broadly.
Those two sentences help set the scene. Little details like that make things come alive.

"The thumbnail gleamed" is indeed an odd sentence by itself, but when taken in context its really not. Again, I think its just minutiae to help set the scene. Why? Because there's never any follow up. That is perhaps the only mention of 'thumbnail' in the entirety of the series.

You might do a search of the word 'thumbnail' and 'gleamed' or any of its synonyms, and look at all those sentences lined up side by side. What would you have? If you had more than 1 instance, you'd have a bunch of shiny thumbs, but no context.

You'd have to look at each paragraph, or possibly each POV and/or chapter, to get anything at all. The point being that you can't pull it apart into single sentences or words. You've gone to deep, friend. The forest, too thick, for the trees.

[themerchant]

I've read that scene more than any other, i haven't found why it would be gleaming, the light can't pierce the water. Kelhus himself stops trying to pierce the water to see through.

The whole scene has possible(that's the problem) meanings.

Moe sitting behind cataracts of great amounts of water so Kellhus can't see him. Weird since Moe is so weak in the Water.

Pink imprints on the cloth.

The incongruity with grasping the TTT as he had already been told he would grasp it. This goes even weirder as the person who told him looks just like Kellhus and Moe (the Cish that zig-zagged to him),

kicking the skull ,

kellhus following a voice from nowhere to look about the place.

Moe experimenting with Skinspies.

The whole meeting taking place at where Inri sejenus ascended.

Some answers from Moe "imperceptive slower" than others.

Plus a few other things i've forgotten as this is from memory. I think this scene might have forshadowing if any scene is going to have it.