The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: SuJuroit on August 03, 2017, 03:11:31 pm
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I had a number of questions about TUC (and still do), but following the revelations from yesterday’s AMA, I think I now have enough information to answer one of the biggest (to my satisfaction anyway), namely, WTF is going on with Kellhus and Ajokli.
The key piece was RSB’s confirmation in the AMA that Kellhus’ goal was to stop Resumption and “save the world”. That, coupled with Kellhus’ claim that he’d “struck bargains with the Pit” made the pieces start to fall into place for me.
1. When did the partnership between Kellhus and Ajokli start? Not super important, but interesting. My best guess is the Circumfixion; the whole Serwe's heart (HitB) thing was Kellhus performing a miracle using Godpower. How did he access the Godpower considering he’d never been to the Outside at this point, let alone know the Daimos? Block universe. Once Kellhus allied with Ajokli in his future, he was always allied with Ajokli from the perspective of Ajokli.
2. What did Ajokli and Kellhus get out of a partnership? Kellhus apparently really did want to stop the Consult/save the world. Being Kellhus, he determined that he needed a trump card, a power even greater than the meta-Gnosis and his kung fu mastery. Especially with the high likelihood he’d be facing one or more Dunyain. Godpower from Ajokli gives him that power so he can pull stunts like “I am Master here!”. He probably also wanted to avoid Damnation. Ajokli wants several things. First and foremost, he wants to manifest in the Inward to feast on it. But he also doesn’t want the Granary to be closed with him baying at the gate like a hungry wolf. He’d sensed something was off the last time the No-God manifested, but now here comes this reverse prophet telling him what was what AND offering to help keep the Granary open? Deal. Especially since Ajokli apparently planned on screwing Kellhus and manifesting in the Inward when he had the opportunity (Ajokli gonna Ajokli).
3. What’s the Head On A Pole? Dunno, but it’s pretty clearly not Ajokli, since Kellhus apparently needed it/used it to strike his treaties with the Pit. I wonder if it had something to do with all those mysterious murders in 4021? Perhaps the manifestation of the Head requires the sacrifice of somebody who loves/trusts the Daimotic sorcerer?
4. Why are the rest of the Hundred hunting Ajokli? Because they don’t see what he sees or know what he knows (remember, he's always been allied with Kellhus, which is how his Narindari know this in the WLW). From their perspective, he’s just being a dick, trying to raid the ‘fridge and hog all the food for himself.
Ajokli: “Hey guys, there’s some serious shit about to go down in the Inward and we risk getting shut off from the yummy food.”
The Hundred: “Yeah sure Trickster God, pull the other one. How about you stop messing around with the Inward before we come over there and kick your ass?”
Ajokli: “Grrrrrrr….” >:(.
Here’s the weird timey-wimey thing about the blindness of the Hundred to the No-God though; they can’t see him at all, in any way, but they CAN see the results of his presence (which they ascribe to men being jerks). IF the No-God ever actually succeeded in closing the world, the Hundred would see that because they see the entire timeline at once and they would see a time where the world is closed, thus no more Granary. But there’s no textual evidence they see anything of the sort. Therefore, it’s pre-ordained that the No-God MUST fail and the world is never closed. Probably due to Ajokli’s fiddling with Kellhus and the timeline.
5. Did Kellhus want/intend for Ajokli to manifest in the Inward? Kellhus is super smart, and he’s well aware of topoi, the nature of Ajokli, etc., so the possibility couldn’t be a surprise to him. RSB indicated in the AMA that it wasn’t really what Kellhus intended or wanted, but he couldn’t stop it due to a combination of lack of knowledge (darkness), lack of spiritual strength due to his feeble Dunyain passion, etc. The most common reading of the Decapitants glossary entry seems to be that Ajokli tried to manifest into the Inward through Mengidda but Kellhus was able to resist him. That seems reasonable to me, and might explain why Kellhus took the risk in the Golden Room; “I was able to keep him out once, I can probably do it again. And if I can’t, well Resumption will still be prevented because that’s the one thing Ajokli desperately wants to avoid as well.”
6. Where’s Kellhus post TUC? We know three things for sure; he is dead, Ajokli can’t find him, and he is NOT Mimara’s baby. I see 3 likely possibilities. 1. Kellhus is in the other Decapitant. 2. Kellhus found Oblivion. 3. Kellhus saw himself descending as Hunger in the Inverse Fire, so he’s in the Outside where he’s used his super smarts to create an “intentional reality” where he can hide from Ajokli.
7. Why did Kellhus want to stop Resumption? This is the one question I can’t really answer, and it probably goes to the heart of what RSB is trying to accomplish in creating a “crash space” of meaning and morality. Resumption means genocide and the likely extinction of humanity. But it also means 144k souls will escape Damnation and no new souls will be born to eventually wind up in the Pit, which we’ve been repeatedly told is the worst thing imaginable. Stopping Resumption means mankind gets to keep existing but Damnation awaits the vast majority of them. And Ajokli’s manifestation in the Inward seems like the worst of all possible worlds. He creates Hell on earth and THEN people die and their souls wind up in the Pit. Even if Kellhus, in his hubris, believed he could prevent Ajokli from manifesting in the Golden Room (which he couldn’t), the Granary keeps on functioning in all its horror. A headscratcher, which it was probably intended to be all along.
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Good post.
I too believe that the start of Ajokli-Kellhus "partnership" is the Circumfixion. The halos start to manifest (as false light) short time later (in TTT if I remember well).
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Two things:
It's precisely because the Gods see a block universe that the No-God succeeds (even Kellhus says the Inchoroi eventually win) - what's "outside" the block is Resumption. If the No-God is a "void" in the block, Resumption is the "space" around the block - ie, a disenchanted universe.
I'm pretty sure Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger in the Outside is just Ajokli speaking. Even before he enters the Golden Room Kellhus/Ajokli says "I am the master here", so Ajokli was manifesting from the start.
So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.
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I only disagree with two points.
Last bit of Point 4: I think the Gods can't see or conceive of a time that's shut off to them, or a thing that can cause it. So in reality their blindness to the No-God means, as Kellhus said, that at some point in time the No-God successfully seals reality (though, maybe not this particular time)
Point 7: I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.
Cnaiür can't catch a break. But then, if he could, I guess he'd not be the God of Hate.
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I'm pretty sure Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger in the Outside is just Ajokli speaking. Even before he enters the Golden Room Kellhus/Ajokli says "I am the master here", so Ajokli was manifesting from the start.
I think the same. These words seem to fit more with Ajokli in control.
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I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.
So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.
I think he believed with sufficient mastery of the Daimos he could usurp Ajokli. He was very wrong.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, SuJuroit :).
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I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.
So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.
I think he believed with sufficient mastery of the Daimos he could usurp Ajokli. He was very wrong.
Makes a bit more sense, but Kellhus trying to become a God in the Outside is very unlike him - he's supposed to be an AI, what does he care about power and desire? He arguably has no hunger to even act on. I get it's a way of avoiding damnation, but why not ally with the Consult and destroy them when they're no longer expedient?
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So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at in #7. It's also the part that left me more confused following the AMA. RSB both confirmed that Kellhus wanted to stop Resumption/Save the world AND that TTT stopped at the Golden Room. So even if everything goes as well as possible and Kellhus manages to keep Ajokli out, the Granary is still open for business and the vast majority of humanity will suffer an unimaginably horrific fate. Thanks Kellhus!
I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.
I dunno, RSB pretty much confirmed that TTT ended at the Golden Room. If so, that could indicate that what we saw was Kellhus' endgame; stop the Consult using Ajokli's power and then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. On the other hand, this would explain why Kellhus was so concerned with stopping Resumption; leaving the Granary in operation becomes a feature not a bug. I like it, although it does seem to contradict RSB's claim that Kellhus wanted to "save the world". I guess that phrase is ambiguous enough that it permits all kinds of interpretations.
I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.
Agreed.
I think the Gods can't see or conceive of a time that's shut off to them, or a thing that can cause it. So in reality their blindness to the No-God means, as Kellhus said, that at some point in time the No-God successfully seals reality (though, maybe not this particular time)
I'm not so much speaking of a time beyond the existence of the Hundred, but rather a time when they do exist but are "baying at the gates" in hunger because the Inward is shut to them. But there's no evidence they ever see such a time.
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I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.
So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.
I think he believed with sufficient mastery of the Daimos he could usurp Ajokli. He was very wrong.
Makes a bit more sense, but Kellhus trying to become a God in the Outside is very unlike him - he's supposed to be an AI, what does he care about power and desire? He arguably has no hunger to even act on. I get it's a way of avoiding damnation, but why not ally with the Consult and destroy them when they're no longer expedient?
Because Kellhus makes mistakes. It's what Bakker said. No Dûnyain attained the Absloute, and based on TGO, Koringhus was the nearest not Kellhus. Which means; Kellhus can be affected by emotions ( his love for Esmi) and Kellhus can make mistakes in the long run, he isn't the perfect AI. And the only way to overcome 5 Dûnyain is with 6 Dûnyain or more, which Kellhus didn't have.
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So Kellhus made a deal with Ajokli to keep the granary open by helping him get rid of the Consult, arguably the enemy mankind can see. Whole loooootta resources devoted to stopping the lesser evil, idgi.
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Makes a bit more sense, but Kellhus trying to become a God in the Outside is very unlike him - he's supposed to be an AI, what does he care about power and desire? He arguably has no hunger to even act on. I get it's a way of avoiding damnation, but why not ally with the Consult and destroy them when they're no longer expedient?
Kellhus isn't an AI though. That's the lie he told himself as a Dunyain. Moenghus recognized vestigial passions still ruled even a Dunyain. Kellhus did not until he went mad and told himself he was a prophet instead, which still put himself beyond such flaws.
Kellhus excels at the analytical aspects the Dunyain breed for but he is poor at self analysis and prone to breaking. He even very rarely experiences something almost akin to love or pity. Frankly, he's not a very good Dunyain.
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I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.
So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.
I think he believed with sufficient mastery of the Daimos he could usurp Ajokli. He was very wrong.
I'm not entirely sure whether it was a failure to control Ajokli. I wouldn't be surprised it was part of the deal as well: For all intents and purpose, Kellhus should have died in Caraskand and he knows that. I think that, just as Saubon (the Mengedda-Dagliash flash-forward/ -back), he got a 20 years lease on life because he managed to convince Ajokli to take the deal.
On the whole, I currently largely agree with SuJoroit. I'll add the Kellhus part of my post from the DEM thread as my two kellics again.
Concerning Kellhus's power:
We get multiple descriptions of Kellhus's Mark throughout TAE. I got the impression it got deeper and deeper, and more blasted throughout the series, based on the subtle difference in adjectives used in the PoV of other protagonists throughout the series. I've entertained for long the possibility that Kellhus was either having people (Zaudunyani) killed to become more powerful himself (souls basically being dinner) in the Outside, resulting in more powerful magic.
After TUC, I'm expecting him having to sacrifice the Ordeal as a whole, as damned and deceived as possible (remember the Meat), was the price for Ajokli's assistance (since there'd be more dinner for him). I'd even go as far as suggesting that the sacrifice of the whole "maxxed out damned" and deceived (!!) ordeal was a necessity for Ajokli to assist Kellhus, which is why we in my perception get the horrific passages of the Ordeal going bananas both in TGO and TUC.
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I agree hints have ben given throughout TAE that Kellhus had mastered the Daimos. The whole head on a pole sequence, rumours throughout TJE from the "foreign" protagonists, and even through Malowebi in his first TUC PoV. We even know he's been to the Outside through the Head on a Pole passage in TGO. The fact that he's made a deal with one of the gods was, in my opinion, extremely probable.
Also the Head on a Pole is, I was supposing, the tether to the world of the living. Similar to the thread binding a Ciphrang to the world. Now that I type this post, I'm inclined to think it's the reminder to Kellhus that he's alive. Think about the explanation of the Wathi doll: The soul is both living and dead, both in the real world and in the Outside. As long as the soul is alive, it cannot be claimed by the Outside. At the same time, the soul is not alive either because the body is still technically alive.
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I still can't see its resemblance to the depiction of Onkis to be a coincidence but at the same time I have no idea what the significance would be.
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Kellhus isn't an AI though. That's the lie he told himself as a Dunyain. Moenghus recognized vestigial passions still ruled even a Dunyain. Kellhus did not until he went mad and told himself he was a prophet instead, which still put himself beyond such flaws.
Kellhus excels at the analytical aspects the Dunyain breed for but he is poor at self analysis and prone to breaking. He even very rarely experiences something almost akin to love or pity. Frankly, he's not a very good Dunyain.
Agreed. What's interesting is that this emotion and passion appears to be increasing in subsequent generations of Anasurimbors. Koringhus, although a towering prodigy among the Dunyain, shocks himself by going back for his infant son and taking on the immense burdens of feeding him, teaching him, hiding him, etc. Crabicus, in turn, was actually defective, unable to "deny the interval between" himself and his father; "The boy clutches his tunic with both hands, hale and halved. He cannot help himself. He is defective." The clear implication is that love, emotion, passion are enough to cause the Dunyain to consider one defective.
Compare all that with Moenghus the elder, who was a Dunyain's Dunyain.
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An idea I've had a couple of times goes like this:
People can become Ciphrangs (Cnaiur, etc.)
Gods are Ciphrangs (maybe...)
Ergo, at some point in the span of history, there live humans who will become Gods. (Note that, because of atemporality, the God self and the human self of these people exist at the same time)
Kellhus IS Ajokli's egg form. He is the wickedest, smartest person who will ever live, and he becomes Ajokli. Ajokli can't find him because he IS him. He doesn't know it because the No-God's servants were intimately involved in his linear self's death, so his atemporal self can't see it.
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Moenghus did actually seemed saddened at considering that Kellhus had gone mad, and admitted he hadn't actually considered the possibility before the moment of meeting. Objectively, he should have.
An idea I've had a couple of times goes like this:
People can become Ciphrangs (Cnaiur, etc.)
Gods are Ciphrangs (maybe...)
Ergo, at some point in the span of history, there live humans who will become Gods. (Note that, because of atemporality, the God self and the human self of these people exist at the same time)
Kellhus IS Ajokli's egg form. He is the wickedest, smartest person who will ever live, and he becomes Ajokli. Ajokli can't find him because he IS him. He doesn't know it because the No-God's servants were intimately involved in his linear self's death, so his atemporal self can't see it.
That would make sense except while Kellhus seems merely to channel Ajokli in the golden room, Cnaiür actually becomes Ajokli at the very end. I think Cnaiür is larval Ajokli. Kellhus was just instrumental in his temporal creation of himself. Not sure if that's always how it happens though, or if this kind of apotheosis is unique toe Ajokli.
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Great post SuJuroit. Welcome to the forum
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Moenghus did actually seemed saddened at considering that Kellhus had gone mad, and admitted he hadn't actually considered the possibility before the moment of meeting. Objectively, he should have.
An idea I've had a couple of times goes like this:
People can become Ciphrangs (Cnaiur, etc.)
Gods are Ciphrangs (maybe...)
Ergo, at some point in the span of history, there live humans who will become Gods. (Note that, because of atemporality, the God self and the human self of these people exist at the same time)
Kellhus IS Ajokli's egg form. He is the wickedest, smartest person who will ever live, and he becomes Ajokli. Ajokli can't find him because he IS him. He doesn't know it because the No-God's servants were intimately involved in his linear self's death, so his atemporal self can't see it.
That would make sense except while Kellhus seems merely to channel Ajokli in the golden room, Cnaiür actually becomes Ajokli at the very end. I think Cnaiür is larval Ajokli. Kellhus was just instrumental in his temporal creation of himself. Not sure if that's always how it happens though, or if this kind of apotheosis is unique toe Ajokli.
It makes sense Cnauir is larval Ajokli but dude would never make a pact with the sole reason for his hatred, eternal being or no. Or maybe he needs to to bootstrap himself into existence? I swear Finnegans Wake is easier to parse than this shit.
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I swear Finnegans Wake is easier to parse than this shit.
Completely off topic, but this makes me feel I'm using the right forum!
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Moenghus did actually seemed saddened at considering that Kellhus had gone mad, and admitted he hadn't actually considered the possibility before the moment of meeting. Objectively, he should have.
I got more of a, "Son I am disappoint." vibe from their meeting, but it's a fair point. But just look at how each successive generation of Anasurimbor treated their children who didn't meet spec. Moenghus drowned them. Kellhus locked Inrilatas up, but let him live, presumably for the sake of Esmenet. And Koringhus took immense personal risks to save the life of his son and bring him up, even though the boy was defective.
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It makes sense Cnauir is larval Ajokli but dude would never make a pact with the sole reason for his hatred, eternal being or no. Or maybe he needs to to bootstrap himself into existence? I swear Finnegans Wake is easier to parse than this shit.
I'd argue it's a combination of needing to bootstrap himself into existence (ironically meaning he needs Moenghus and then Kellhus to torment his original self) and not really caring about Kellhus's life that much when he can possibly get his soul instead.
Moenghus did actually seemed saddened at considering that Kellhus had gone mad, and admitted he hadn't actually considered the possibility before the moment of meeting. Objectively, he should have.
I got more of a, "Son I am disappoint." vibe from their meeting, but it's a fair point. But just look at how each successive generation of Anasurimbor treated their children who didn't meet spec. Moenghus drowned them. Kellhus locked Inrilatas up, but let him live, presumably for the sake of Esmenet. And Koringhus took immense personal risks to save the life of his son and bring him up, even though the boy was defective.
That's a very good point. Dunyain seem to have some unfortunate issues with their breeding program.
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Good post.
I too believe that the start of Ajokli-Kellhus "partnership" is the Circumfixion. The halos start to manifest (as false light) short time later (in TTT if I remember well).
I agree with this idea, but the halos had been manifesting before the Circumfixion. If I remember correctly, Serwë started seeing halos on Kellhus late in TDTCB/early in TWP.
Though you might have meant that the halos had started to manifest in a way most people could see (and not just Serwë) post-Circumfixion, in which case I'm sorry for the nitpick.
The Kellhus/Ajokli connection has definitely been there since PON - there is a Conphas quote in TTT (I think) about Kellhus being "a venerable Ajokli" (or close to that, I need to look it up).
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Point 7: I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.
One, sorrry for forgetting who im quoting here. But, the Outside is not shut. Far from it, not even close. Its not shut till pop. goes beneath 144,000 and maybe not even then.
Im down and always have been with Kellhus in the Outside and having mastered the Diamos, having a hiding space. Trting to transform the Outside, defeat the Gods, no more soul munching. It just doesnt seem likely or even be explored. And, hoping and believing humanity can lull off killing the No-God....again.
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Point 7: I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.
One, sorrry for forgetting who im quoting here. But, the Outside is not shut. Far from it, not even close. Its not shut till pop. goes beneath 144,000 and maybe not even then.
Im down and always have been with Kellhus in the Outside and having mastered the Diamos, having a hiding space. Trting to transform the Outside, defeat the Gods, no more soul munching. It just doesnt seem likely or even be explored. And, hoping and believing humanity can lull off killing the No-God....again.
We already know that's impossible from the very existence of the Gods in the first place. They always-already are what they are, we have to get out of the habit of thinking these things temporally, as if Kellhus can now go to the Outside and start working his magic. If Kellhus had conquered the Outside, there wouldn't be any soul-munching to speak of, it always happened.
Unless we hit some random year and poof, damnation never existed, all this shit never existed, and Earwa is thoroughly disenchanted.
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The Outside isn't permanently closed yet but it is at least jammed.
Point 7: I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.
One, sorrry for forgetting who im quoting here. But, the Outside is not shut. Far from it, not even close. Its not shut till pop. goes beneath 144,000 and maybe not even then.
Im down and always have been with Kellhus in the Outside and having mastered the Diamos, having a hiding space. Trting to transform the Outside, defeat the Gods, no more soul munching. It just doesnt seem likely or even be explored. And, hoping and believing humanity can lull off killing the No-God....again.
We already know that's impossible from the very existence of the Gods in the first place. They always-already are what they are, we have to get out of the habit of thinking these things temporally, as if Kellhus can now go to the Outside and start working his magic. If Kellhus had conquered the Outside, there wouldn't be any soul-munching to speak of, it always happened.
Unless we hit some random year and poof, damnation never existed, all this shit never existed, and Earwa is thoroughly disenchanted.
Well, or alternatively, for the sake of argument, Kellhus doesn't care about damnation for everyone else. Or even wants it.
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Remember Kellhus quote about the Gods and how the No-God is mucking with history.
The Gods and their agents inhabit a world where they are doomed to succeed (WLW, since the Gods are atemporal), then transition without noticing to one where they were always doomed to fail when the No-God thwarts them.
It isn't that the existence of atemporal beings denies free will, it is that free will (in the form of the nondeterministic No-God and its slaves) transforms those eternal beings, makes them over again every time they interact.
The Ajokli who possessed Kellhus did so from beyond history, in a world in which he had/would always possess Kellhus and plunder the Granary. The one that possess Cnaiur is a DIFFERENT AJOKLI, made over along with the remainder of the Outside by Resumption. His rage is Cnaiur's rage, Esmenet's rage...the homicidal outrage of the victim, the desperate search for the one accountable, doomed forever to failure.
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The new Ajokli that always was. Lovely.
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That's a very good point. Dunyain seem to have some unfortunate issues with their breeding program.
Not least of which it, if indirectly, rendered them Damned ;).
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Well, or alternatively, for the sake of argument, Kellhus doesn't care about damnation for everyone else. Or even wants it.
RSB's comparison of Kellhus to Sorweel under the Amiolas might be meaningful here. Sorweel started out hating Kellhus, then was convinced by the Amiolas that Kellhus was on the side of right and good, then wound up being subverted by Yatwer and died trying to kill Kellhus.
Perhaps Kellhus initially was repulsed by the Consult and truly intended to stop their evil ways but was gradually suborned by Ajokli without his full knowledge or control. Perhaps by the very end he was no more in control than Sorweel was in the moments before his death. Just a puppet for who knows how long, right up until Ajokli took over in truth.
It isn't that the existence of atemporal beings denies free will, it is that free will (in the form of the nondeterministic No-God and its slaves) transforms those eternal beings, makes them over again every time they interact.
Great point.
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Perhaps Kellhus ... was gradually suborned by Ajokli without his full knowledge or control. Perhaps by the very end he was no more in control than Sorweel was in the moments before his death. Just a puppet for who knows how long, right up until Ajokli took over in truth.
Which is exactly the sort of deliciously ironic punishment Ajokli-Who-Was-Cnaiur would have wished upon the one who had made a puppet of his soul twenty years before, surely?
I think it is worth remembering that Kayutas and Serwa seemed really worried about the prospect of Kellhus going into the Golden Room alone. It seemed to me like he'd warned them not to allow that to happen. Just a shame a dragon and 99 100 chorae got in the way. Yeah, we all assumed it was the possibility of the Consult subverting Kellhus that they were worried about, but maybe it was his possession by Ajokli that they were supposed to prevent?
Heck, if Mimara had gotten up there with a chorae, she could presumably have banished Ajokli like she did to the Wight of Cil-Aujas. Maybe that was a contingency in Kellhus' plan? But, again, circumstances got in the way: Mim went into labour early, which Kellhus could not have forseen (Yatwer's final gambit, maybe?)
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Did Kellhus have any inkling about the Judging Eye? Plus I doubt it would be a Yatwer gambit since Yatwer seemed to not want any of this going down.
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Did Kellhus have any inkling about the Judging Eye? Plus I doubt it would be a Yatwer gambit since Yatwer seemed to not want any of this going down.
From what we've learned post AMA/Q&A, id say he had absolutely no clue about the Judging Eye. IMHO.
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Did Kellhus have any inkling about the Judging Eye?
He seems to have sent someone from the Ministrate to ensure Akka and Mim got aid from some scalpers and the Last Nonman King to go North... so I think it's at least a possibility. It seems pretty clear that Akka and Mim were intended to meet up with the Great Ordeal at some point for some reason. But then nothing really comes of that, so it ends up feeling like part of a plan that just didn't quite work out. I suppose it is possible Kellhus just wanted Akka on hand and that Mim's purpose was purely to goad the Wizard, but... that just doesn't feel very likely to me. I think she's there either as part of TTT or as a contingency if things went wrong (as they did), which implies that Kellhus knew there was something 'special' about her.
I notice some people seem to be assuming now that, since TTT so obviously and catastrophically fell apart in the Golden Room, that therefore Kellhus wasn't as smart as was previously thought and that most of what happened during TAE books was just happenstance and coincidence. As though Kellhus must be either an omniscient Mary Sue, or a hapless fool tossed about on the waves of circumstance, and nothing in between. But TTT could have unfolded 99.9% as Kellhus intended and still failed due to a couple of pieces not being in the right place at the right time.
Plus I doubt it would be a Yatwer gambit since Yatwer seemed to not want any of this going down.
You don't think frustrating Kellhus' plans by taking one of his pieces off the benjukka plate at a critical moment would be a thing Yatwer would go for?
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I think it is worth remembering that Kayutas and Serwa seemed really worried about the prospect of Kellhus going into the Golden Room alone. It seemed to me like he'd warned them not to allow that to happen. Just a shame a dragon and 99 100 chorae got in the way. Yeah, we all assumed it was the possibility of the Consult subverting Kellhus that they were worried about, but maybe it was his possession by Ajokli that they were supposed to prevent?
Could be. I see it that Ajokli's foot-stop stopped anybody being able to get in from below (assuming Kelmomas had already got in, or somehow dodged all the falling debris).
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The last sit down with the canon artifact that I had included The Last Whelming and Mimara and Kellhus do share a hard look where she's explicitly wishing that the Judging Eye would open. Kellhus dips out, with Kelmomas in tow, immediately thereafter.
Either Kellhus had a pre-Judgment moment like the Survivor when he qualifies Mimara as "mad" or Kellhus knows about the Judging Eye and didn't want Mimara to see him as Damned/Saved, despite all his efforts to remain ambiguous.
I'd have to get my copy but I'm on bed rest, supposed to keep my foot elevated; the line specifically goes something like "And Kellhus sees" (badly paraphrasing) and then translocates the fuck out of there.
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I notice some people seem to be assuming now that, since TTT so obviously and catastrophically fell apart in the Golden Room, that therefore Kellhus wasn't as smart as was previously thought and that most of what happened during TAE books was just happenstance and coincidence. As though Kellhus must be either an omniscient Mary Sue, or a hapless fool tossed about on the waves of circumstance, and nothing in between. But TTT could have unfolded 99.9% as Kellhus intended and still failed due to a couple of pieces not being in the right place at the right time.
This is pretty much my take on things. Based on the Decapitants glossary entry, I believe that Kellhus was aware of the risk of Ajokli attempting to manifest, but was either convinced he could control it or that it simply didn't matter that much since the last thing Ajokli wanted was for Resumption to occur. He was obviously wrong about the former, but he was right about the latter point. Not realizing Kelmomas was the No-God was the 0.1% he whiffed on.
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What good is preventing resumption if the world becomes Hell?
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...you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.
I see Ajokli as akin to the gods Loki (viking) or Hades (greek), they aren't at all evil.
They are often the heels of whatever story they are in, but not always. Ajokli is called the trickster, basically the same think Loki is called. Hades is the master of 'Hell' (underworld), more specifically just the place the dead go. Its not all torture and fire in the Greek afterlife. Even heroes/good people end up in Hades domain, that part of his domain is just called Elysium (heaven).
Ajokli is more complicated and not at all constrained to being the simple big bad, and remembering any of the gods actions are predicated on seeing the things happening *around* the things they cant see.
Brutal and over powering, yes, evil, no.
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Did Kellhus have any inkling about the Judging Eye? Plus I doubt it would be a Yatwer gambit since Yatwer seemed to not want any of this going down.
From what we've learned post AMA/Q&A, id say he had absolutely no clue about the Judging Eye. IMHO.
Why Akka didn't tell him about the JE is a fucking mistery for me.
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Why Akka didn't tell him about the JE is a fucking mistery for me.
Or why no one even brought up the Sclyvendi sitting right over the hill.
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Why Akka didn't tell him about the JE is a fucking mistery for me.
Or why no one even brought up the Sclyvendi sitting right over the hill.
Fuck yes.
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I know they munched all the horses up but there are no scouts at all anywhere?
The horde is supposedly goneski, why there arent masses of scouts all over the place around the ordeal blows my mind. If something is killing/dissapearing your scouts in X direction, something is up. Given the short duration the Ordeal is at the Horns im not even sure where the Horde 2.0 came from, given the massive blinding dust cloud a horde generates.
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Yes, that blows my mind.
I expected more of a Dûnyain general.
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There were scouts, the Scylvendi took them out.
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Pretty lame scouts they were.
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Pretty lame scouts they were.
I think everyone was pretty lame after a whole march across the world, losing 1/3 of their ranks, and surviving by eating the remains of the rest, only to stare at an impregnable fortress that is the very heart of life's undoing. Not looking behind you with the utmost scrutiny is probably somewhat excusable, even if it is still rather dumb.
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What good is preventing resumption if the world becomes Hell?
I think this question goes to the root of what RBS was trying to achieve. Golgotterath is a crash space, where meaning and morality collapse. So is it better for mankind to suffer horribly in the Inward and go extinct under Resumption? To live normal lives in the Inward, but suffer an eternity of torment in the Pit? To experience Hell on earth under a manifested Ajokli (that one seems like an easy call, but what becomes of the metaphysics of souls under a God manifested in the Inward?)? I think we're meant to grapple with these questions ourselves, although it seems clear that if Kellhus chose the second option presented above, he deviated from what the rest of the Dunyain did or would have done. We can only guess at why; he went crazy, Ajokli tricked him into it, his love of Esmenet made him do it, etc.
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Hell on earth under a manifested Ajokli (that one seems like an easy call, but what becomes of the metaphysics of souls under a God manifested in the Inward?)?
For all we know, maybe if Ajokli rules the World and brings his Hells with him, that might leave the Outside full of only Heavens?
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I don't think Ajokli has the only hell. Yatwer at least seems to like to torment.
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There were scouts, the Scylvendi took them out.
Uh huh, so a veteran army at the end of their objective all of a sudden doesnt mind that all the scouts are being killed in one sector? Or that all the scouts are being killed? Some of the scouts have to be schoolmen since they can basically fly.
You really think no-ones going to not kick a stink if mages start getting salted? If a bow can even reach the height a schoolman on watch would be up at.
I dont think they posted any. Could have saved a world of hurt.
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I dont think they posted any. Could have saved a world of hurt.
The Ordeal posted sentinels in the ruins of the Akeokinoi. Naked Scylvendi painted with camouflage snuck up on them and killed them all. The rest of the Ordeal were already fully occupied at Golgotterath by this point, so even if any of the sentinels had lived long enough to send some sort of message, it would not have helped.
If a bow can even reach the height a schoolman on watch would be up at.
There seems to be a limit on how high above the Ground a sorcerer can conjure an echo to walk upon. Even Serwa couldn't get high enough to take out the wielder of the Spear of Sil. Kellhus could get right up to the top of the Upright Horn, but he might have been using Ajoklian thaumaturgy rather than sorcery.
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I think Kellhus gets up above Aurang by warping, not by walking on echoes.
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I think Kellhus gets up above Aurang by warping, not by walking on echoes.
Yeah, I just re-read it. He teleports onto an echo of the Spear-wielder's balcony, then later on repeately teleports up and freefalls, then teleports back up again.
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If a bow can even reach the height a schoolman on watch would be up at.
There seems to be a limit on how high above the Ground a sorcerer can conjure an echo to walk upon. Even Serwa couldn't get high enough to take out the wielder of the Spear of Sil. Kellhus could get right up to the top of the Upright Horn, but he might have been using Ajoklian thaumaturgy rather than sorcery.
Kellhus seemed to actually be flying, yeah. That and teleporting. Serwa can't get up to the height of the spearbearer because the Horn has an echo too. She raises the relative frame of the ground, she raises the relative frame of the Ark.
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I dont think they posted any. Could have saved a world of hurt.
The Ordeal posted sentinels in the ruins of the Akeokinoi. Naked Scylvendi painted with camouflage snuck up on them and killed them all. The rest of the Ordeal were already fully occupied at Golgotterath by this point, so even if any of the sentinels had lived long enough to send some sort of message, it would not have helped.
+1
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But did Kellhus know that Cnaiur was coming or not?
If so it seems that he didn't care at all.
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I dont think they posted any. Could have saved a world of hurt.
The Ordeal posted sentinels in the ruins of the Akeokinoi. Naked Scylvendi painted with camouflage snuck up on them and killed them all. The rest of the Ordeal were already fully occupied at Golgotterath by this point, so even if any of the sentinels had lived long enough to send some sort of message, it would not have helped.
If a bow can even reach the height a schoolman on watch would be up at.
There seems to be a limit on how high above the Ground a sorcerer can conjure an echo to walk upon. Even Serwa couldn't get high enough to take out the wielder of the Spear of Sil. Kellhus could get right up to the top of the Upright Horn, but he might have been using Ajoklian thaumaturgy rather than sorcery.
Huh. Right, some how I had no idea. I knew the Schoolmen were walking on an echo of the ground not 'flying' but never noticed anything about there being X distance as being the maximum delta between the surface and foot. Its always seemed they are low enough to get hit by missiles so they were close enough for their offensive spells i.e. it makes sense that dragon heads only puke fire out to a certain range...id just never noticed anything that indicated the ground echo having such a low limit.
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I think Kellhus gets up above Aurang by warping, not by walking on echoes.
Yeah, I just re-read it. He teleports onto an echo of the Spear-wielder's balcony, then later on repeately teleports up and freefalls, then teleports back up again.
Yeah that's also how I read it. He's able to effectively fly by having such a fast teleport cooldown and nearly unlimited mana.
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But did Kellhus know that Cnaiur was coming or not?
If so it seems that he didn't care at all.
Possibly he did but just as the Empire was a ladder for the Ordeal, the Ordeal was a ladder to get him into the Golden Room to destroy the Consult Brain trust (with Serwa and Kayutas maybe). So as he was willing to let the empire burn, maybe he was willing to let the Scylvendi destroy what remained of the Ordeal so long as it happened after his confrontation with the Dunsult.
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I think Kellhus gets up above Aurang by warping, not by walking on echoes.
Yeah, I just re-read it. He teleports onto an echo of the Spear-wielder's balcony, then later on repeately teleports up and freefalls, then teleports back up again.
Yeah that's also how I read it. He's able to effectively fly by having such a fast teleport cooldown and nearly unlimited mana.
Gnostic Dunyain class/race combo OP pls nerf
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I think Kellhus gets up above Aurang by warping, not by walking on echoes.
Yeah, I just re-read it. He teleports onto an echo of the Spear-wielder's balcony, then later on repeately teleports up and freefalls, then teleports back up again.
Yeah that's also how I read it. He's able to effectively fly by having such a fast teleport cooldown and nearly unlimited mana.
Gnostic Dunyain class/race combo OP pls nerf
I agree, but at least they have the -10 spirit which renders them vulnerable to God class.