The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Redeagl on August 17, 2017, 03:27:38 pm
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Occasionally, I read a chapter from a randomly chosen TSA book. And most of the times, the foreshadowing is genius. So, I wanted to make this thread just so that I can share and talk about it.
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Apparently activity along the Scylvendi frontier, which had surged in previous weeks, had now dwindled to nothing, a fact that at once heartened her, because of the redeployment it allowed, and troubled her.
-The White-luck Warrior, Chapter 8.
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The attempt to bend the Holy War to Nansur interests had been a daring gambit, they all agreed, but so long as the brilliant Conphas marched with them, the Emperor might still succeed. Conphas. A man like a God. A true child of Kyraneas, or even Cenei—of the old blood. How could he fail to make the Holy War his own? “Think of it!” they cried. “The Old Empire restored!” And they raised yet another toast to their ancient nation.
- The Darkness That Comes Before, chapter 19.
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Oo, that second one is a great one. A true son ;)
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Kelmomas and Samarmus (presumably) are named after Celmomas and Sag-Marmau, two of the fiercest opponents of the No-God...which they eventually become.
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The attempt to bend the Holy War to Nansur interests had been a daring gambit, they all agreed, but so long as the brilliant Conphas marched with them, the Emperor might still succeed. Conphas. A man like a God. A true child of Kyraneas, or even Cenei—of the old blood. How could he fail to make the Holy War his own? “Think of it!” they cried. “The Old Empire restored!” And they raised yet another toast to their ancient nation.
- The Darkness That Comes Before, chapter 19.
Foreshadows both what Kellhus will actually achieve regarding the Holy War and the 'new' Empire, and also Kellhus as a delusional megalomaniac who thinks he is, or can become a god. Also, the failure of Conphas in PON foreshadows the failure of Kellhus in TAE.
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The attempt to bend the Holy War to Nansur interests had been a daring gambit, they all agreed, but so long as the brilliant Conphas marched with them, the Emperor might still succeed. Conphas. A man like a God. A true child of Kyraneas, or even Cenei—of the old blood. How could he fail to make the Holy War his own? “Think of it!” they cried. “The Old Empire restored!” And they raised yet another toast to their ancient nation.
- The Darkness That Comes Before, chapter 19.
Go Sherlock! That's a great find.
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This world, he thought, must not end.
He turned from the view to the room’s single table and dropped onto the stool, or what passed for one—it looked like something salvaged from a wrecked ship. He wet his quill and unrolling a small scroll across scattered sheets of parchment, wrote:
Fords of Tywanrae. Same.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and
not S in mirror.
- The Darkness That Comes Before chapter 1.
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That's great, Redeagl.
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Thanks, Madness and Hiro.
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This world, he thought, must not end.
He turned from the view to the room’s single table and dropped onto the stool, or what passed for one—it looked like something salvaged from a wrecked ship. He wet his quill and unrolling a small scroll across scattered sheets of parchment, wrote:
Fords of Tywanrae. Same.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and
not S in mirror.
- The Darkness That Comes Before chapter 1.
Forgive the density of my gray matter, but what does this mean/foreshadow? Whose the writer ( Akka? ). The "See my face and not S in mirror" escapes me, don't know what is being said here.
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Forgive the density of my gray matter, but what does this mean/foreshadow? Whose the writer ( Akka? ). The "See my face and not S in mirror" escapes me, don't know what is being said here.
Yes it's Akka. You could say it's foreshadowing of Akka becoming a prophet of the past and maybe those dreams are not from Seswatha. I don't think so, though. In the Slog of Slots re-read a couple years ago, I quoted the same passage as proof that Kellhus wasn't manipulating the dreams, and Akka's dreams were starting to change from the beginning, yet slowly. And, I think Seswatha is changing those dreams, because he knows Akka to be the one to truly fight the battle of TNG.
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Forgive the density of my gray matter, but what does this mean/foreshadow? Whose the writer ( Akka? ). The "See my face and not S in mirror" escapes me, don't know what is being said here.
Yes it's Akka. You could say it's foreshadowing of Akka becoming a prophet of the past and maybe those dreams are not from Seswatha. I don't think so, though. In the Slog of Slots re-read a couple years ago, I quoted the same passage as proof that Kellhus wasn't manipulating the dreams, and Akka's dreams were starting to change from the beginning, yet slowly. And, I think Seswatha is changing those dreams, because he knows Akka to be the one to truly fight the battle of TNG.
For me, this is another bit of evidence that Seswatha's dreams are not as straightforward as it might seem at first glance (if at all are what they're presented as). Quite possibly, everyone sees them differently, that's why Mandati chronicle them.
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This world, he thought, must not end.
He turned from the view to the room’s single table and dropped onto the stool, or what passed for one—it looked like something salvaged from a wrecked ship. He wet his quill and unrolling a small scroll across scattered sheets of parchment, wrote:
Fords of Tywanrae. Same.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and
not S in mirror.
- The Darkness That Comes Before chapter 1.
Forgive the density of my gray matter, but what does this mean/foreshadow? Whose the writer ( Akka? ). The "See my face and not S in mirror" escapes me, don't know what is being said here.
What they said but also, very specifically, Achamian and Mimara are at Sauglish when a Dragon-caused forest fire happens to engulf it; "Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and not S in mirror," suggesting that Bakker had planned the end of WLW as far back as TDTCB.
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This world, he thought, must not end.
He turned from the view to the room’s single table and dropped onto the stool, or what passed for one—it looked like something salvaged from a wrecked ship. He wet his quill and unrolling a small scroll across scattered sheets of parchment, wrote:
Fords of Tywanrae. Same.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and
not S in mirror.
- The Darkness That Comes Before chapter 1.
Forgive the density of my gray matter, but what does this mean/foreshadow? Whose the writer ( Akka? ). The "See my face and not S in mirror" escapes me, don't know what is being said here.
What they said but also, very specifically, Achamian and Mimara are at Sauglish when a Dragon-caused forest fire happens to engulf it; "Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and not S in mirror," suggesting that Bakker had planned the end of WLW as far back as TDTCB.
Exactly. So, the " He makes it as he goes." comments on the other forum is not correct.
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This world, he thought, must not end.
He turned from the view to the room’s single table and dropped onto the stool, or what passed for one—it looked like something salvaged from a wrecked ship. He wet his quill and unrolling a small scroll across scattered sheets of parchment, wrote:
Fords of Tywanrae. Same.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and
not S in mirror.
- The Darkness That Comes Before chapter 1.
Forgive the density of my gray matter, but what does this mean/foreshadow? Whose the writer ( Akka? ). The "See my face and not S in mirror" escapes me, don't know what is being said here.
What they said but also, very specifically, Achamian and Mimara are at Sauglish when a Dragon-caused forest fire happens to engulf it; "Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and not S in mirror," suggesting that Bakker had planned the end of WLW as far back as TDTCB.
Exactly. So, the " He makes it as he goes." comments on the other forum is not correct.
Lol, it goes both ways. There are certainly spontaneous narrative elements. Likewise there are things he's planned for a long time.
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The creak of bronze hinges. They both yanked their gazes to the shadows that concealed the entrance. The fires pulled and twirled in the tripods set to either side of the game-table. Achamian heard the scuff of little feet, then suddenly Nau-Cayûti hurtled into his father’s arms and lap.
“Whoopa!” Celmomas cried. “What warrior leaps blindly into the arms of his foe?”
The boy chortled in the grinding way of children fending fingers that tickle. “You’re not my foe, Da!”
“Wait till you get older!”
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
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The creak of bronze hinges. They both yanked their gazes to the shadows that concealed the entrance. The fires pulled and twirled in the tripods set to either side of the game-table. Achamian heard the scuff of little feet, then suddenly Nau-Cayûti hurtled into his father’s arms and lap.
“Whoopa!” Celmomas cried. “What warrior leaps blindly into the arms of his foe?”
The boy chortled in the grinding way of children fending fingers that tickle. “You’re not my foe, Da!”
“Wait till you get older!”
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Damn.... That's a great find, Bolivar.
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This is pure speculation, but everything Bakker writes seems significant. True Chekhov's guns, as it were.
There's a scene in TUC where Kellhus tells little Kel that he's constantly switching with Sam. As the story stands right now, it's pretty much a superfluous statement, but the way Bakker writes none of this stuff stays irrelevant forever (especially Kellhus sayings). So I can't help but wonder what the Kel/Sam dual personality means for the No-God. If it survived, maybe Mog has some new insight or perspective on himself this time around.
Beasts move. Men reflect. (No-?)Gods make real.
EDIT: On that note, actually the passage that litany comes from kinda foreshadows his fate, too.
Kelmomas had been born staring into the deluge that was his twin's face. For a time, he knew, his mother's physicians had feared for him because it seemed he could do little more than gaze at his brother. All he could remember were the squalls of hurt and wheezing gratification, and a hunger so elemental that it swallowed the spaces between them, soldered their faces into a single soul. The world was shouldered to the periphery. The tutors and the physicians had droned from the edges, not so much ignored as overlooked by a two-bodied creature who stared endlessly into its own inscrutable eyes.
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That's beautiful. Probably similar to how the actual No-God experiences things too, i.e. " a hunger so elemental..."
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And this one Scylvendi, this Utemot Chieftain. Conphas had witnessed it, as much as any of the Columnaries who′d quailed before him in Joktha. In the firelight the barbarian’s eyes had been coals set in his skull. And the blood had painted him the colour of his true skin. The swatting arms, the roaring voice, the chest-pounding declarations. They had all seen the God. They had all seen dread Gilgaöl rearing about him, a great horned shadow …
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That specific foreshadowing, Bolivar, as well as Kellhus' speech in Shikol's Court are made even more interesting as Bakker talked at Zaudunyanicon about how when he began writing TAE he wasn't yet sure who would take Ajokli's position in TUC, Gilgaol or Ajokli.
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A Nonman might point out the difficulty in disentangling the Principles of Hate and War. Inri Sejenus would concur that the same entity can wear different faces. Fane would argue rather huffily that all demons are made of lies anyway so shut up. Memgowa, of course, is just chuckling and shaking his head because he knows everyone else has missed the point entirely.
Perhaps how one perceives Hate and War depends more on the observer than on some immutable Divine Truth.
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You're on fire, Duskweaver :).
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That specific foreshadowing, Bolivar, as well as Kellhus' speech in Shikol's Court are made even more interesting as Bakker talked at Zaudunyanicon about how when he began writing TAE he wasn't yet sure who would take Ajokli's position in TUC, Gilgaol or Ajokli.
That's amazing. Did he mean that it was meant to be ambiguous up to that point, that Gilgaol could have taken over Kellhus in the Ark? It seems like he could have gone either way even after the Celmomas POV in TGO.
Wish I could've been there. I hope maybe you guys could move it just south of the border next year !!! :D
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That's amazing. Did he mean that it was meant to be ambiguous up to that point, that Gilgaol could have taken over Kellhus in the Ark? It seems like he could have gone either way even after the Celmomas POV in TGO.
Wish I could've been there. I hope maybe you guys could move it just south of the border next year !!! :D
Well, Kellhus invokes himself in Gilgaol's name specifically in Shikol's Court. Conphas reflects that the Nansur swear they saw the "horned shadow" on Cnaiur as Gilgaol.
It seemed to me that he meant ambiguous when he starting working on TJE - given his AMA answer about not purposefully addressing the Gods in PON. I think he had the narrative planned out and, if I recall correctly, he specifically was debating what a sibling rivalry would look like between Gilgaol and Yatwer or the trickster version of Ajokli v. the Gods. Given how well I think TAE maps out with Ajokli specifically in mind, it seems he must have decided on Ajokli before finishing TJE.
I'm still of the opinion that Gilgaol is the God in Celmomas' Dream.
EDIT: Lol, regarding, Zaudunyanicon the Second, we'll see... I started planning Ishoiya about now in 2015 and Zaudunyanicon in August 2016. As Wilshire said, there's a lot more impetus to organize if Bakker's coming (which he likely wouldn't make the trip to the states unless we paid for it) or if there's a new book release (I'd settle for any new book release as an excuse).
We'll see.
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Well, Kellhus invokes himself in Gilgaol's name specifically in Shikol's Court. Conphas reflects that the Nansur swear they saw the "horned shadow" on Cnaiur as Gilgaol.
It seemed to me that he meant ambiguous when he starting working on TJE - given his AMA answer about not purposefully addressing the Gods in PON. I think he had the narrative planned out and, if I recall correctly, he specifically was debating what a sibling rivalry would look like between Gilgaol and Yatwer or the trickster version of Ajokli v. the Gods. Given how well I think TAE maps out with Ajokli specifically in mind, it seems he must have decided on Ajokli before finishing TJE.
I'm still of the opinion that Gilgaol is the God in Celmomas' Dream.
Well, I think Kellhus (at least once) refers to Yatwer has his sister. Considering that Gilgaol is Yatwer's brother, this could be another indication that Kellhus thinks himself akin to The God of War rather than the Price of Hate we know is actually the case. It's easy to ascribe this to Ajokli further tricking him and it seems unlikely that Kellhus would or could know the difference.
So, when Kellhus appears to Celmomas a la Gilgaol, it is probably genuine in Kellhus' view, while in reality it is probably a further Ajokli trick.
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Well, Kellhus invokes himself in Gilgaol's name specifically in Shikol's Court. Conphas reflects that the Nansur swear they saw the "horned shadow" on Cnaiur as Gilgaol.
It seemed to me that he meant ambiguous when he starting working on TJE - given his AMA answer about not purposefully addressing the Gods in PON. I think he had the narrative planned out and, if I recall correctly, he specifically was debating what a sibling rivalry would look like between Gilgaol and Yatwer or the trickster version of Ajokli v. the Gods. Given how well I think TAE maps out with Ajokli specifically in mind, it seems he must have decided on Ajokli before finishing TJE.
I'm still of the opinion that Gilgaol is the God in Celmomas' Dream.
Well, I think Kellhus (at least once) refers to Yatwer has his sister. Considering that Gilgaol is Yatwer's brother, this could be another indication that Kellhus thinks himself akin to The God of War rather than the Price of Hate we know is actually the case. It's easy to ascribe this to Ajokli further tricking him and it seems unlikely that Kellhus would or could know the difference.
That's what I'm talking about. It's a speech he gives in Shikol's Court early on in TTT.
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I always interpreted that section as Kellhus imposing his godhood image by referring to one of the hundred as an equal. Manipulation rather than actually his he sees himself.
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I always interpreted that section as Kellhus imposing his godhood image by referring to one of the hundred as an equal. Manipulation rather than actually his he sees himself.
That's gotta be one huge advantage of writing so vaguely. It's almost impossible to denounce anything as a retcon when there are always alternate interpretations!
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That's gotta be one huge advantage of writing so vaguely. It's almost impossible to denounce anything as a retcon when there are always alternate interpretations!
What worries me is that it works both ways. There is no way to know that Bakker actually is saying something in any particular instance or clearly discern what it is.
No point exists where you can't (or fail) to convey one.
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I did link in another thread a text that suggests there are many authors/artists over the course of history who have attempted the "perfectly ambigious" artifact.
However...
What worries me is that it works both ways. There is no way to know that Bakker actually is saying something in any particular instance or clearly discern what it is.
No point exists where you can't (or fail) to convey one.
We do know that there is deliberate intent in certain instances (and we can be thankful that the Greater Bakker is obviously a much better writer than the Lesser Bakker ;)). It's just the case of teasing which ones are planned, which are lucky, and which don't work by either measure.
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A Nonman might point out the difficulty in disentangling the Principles of Hate and War. Inri Sejenus would concur that the same entity can wear different faces. Fane would argue rather huffily that all demons are made of lies anyway so shut up. Memgowa, of course, is just chuckling and shaking his head because he knows everyone else has missed the point entirely.
Perhaps how one perceives Hate and War depends more on the observer than on some immutable Divine Truth.
How do you people know this shit? This is amazing and makes me feel small. Great stuff.
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http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2257.msg40922#msg40922 (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2257.msg40922#msg40922)
Something that just came to mind when reading the above post.
Sorweel and Oinaral descend into the 'pit' within Ishterebinth. Oinaral sacrifices himself so that Oirunas confronts (and appears to bring about the defeat) the Consult element amongst the Non-Men.
Does this foreshadow what goes on in the Golden Room? We never actually see the resolution of Ishterebinth - perhaps to avoid any clues. There is also the soul 'sharing' aspect with the Amiolas, which may have some relevance
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How do you people know this shit? This is amazing and makes me feel small. Great stuff.
That's why we're begging Duskweaver to do a cast. Along with anyone else. When you get talking live with all these GREAT minds, little minds like me make huge revelations....lol. Its fun to hear so many different people come together and discuss these books.
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How do you people know this shit? This is amazing and makes me feel small. Great stuff.
That's why we're begging Duskweaver to do a cast. Along with anyone else. When you get talking live with all these GREAT minds, little minds like me make huge revelations....lol. Its fun to hear so many different people come together and discuss these books.
Yeah, I'm like, what the fuck - I'm still trying to make head/tails of half this work and cats like DW are extending possible points of view of people referenced in the story, not even part of the current action. Wild.
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How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.
I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.
For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)
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How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.
I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.
For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)
Michael Kirkbride?
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How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.
I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.
For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)
+1
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Michael Kirkbride?
Of Elder Scrolls infamy, yes.
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“What am I?” the dark and regal face said, frowning. His oiled braids thrashed like snakes about his shoulders. The last of the light glimmered across the lions wrought into his bronze armour.
“The World, Anaxophus! The very World!”
This isn’t how it happens!
The whirlwind towered over them, a mountainous pillar of fury so high one had to kneel to see the cloud-shrouded summits. Cycling winds roared over them. The horses screamed and kicked from side to side. The chariot rocked beneath their feet. All had become ochre shadow. More scouring gusts, buffeting them with the power of riptides, bottomless and all-encompassing. The grit peeled the skin from his knuckles, from his cheeks.
The No-God walked.
Too late …
Strange … the way passion flickered out before life.
Horses shrieking. Chariot tipping.
TELL ME, ACHAMIA—
He bolted awake, crying out.
The Thousandfold Thought- chapter Seventeen.
I know I said that I am taking a small break, but PoN is just something else.
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Check this out:
First quote:
He had poked holes of varying sizes throughout the parchment, and when he held his oil lantern high to complement the firelight, little beads of water glinted across the tanned landscape. Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside leaked into the world.
This, he had said, was madness.
Second quote:
... thinking of all the Scylvendi had said regarding the new Emperor, of how even now he marched on the Holy War from the west—or from the sea. “Warn them,” the leering shadow had said. “I would not see Proyas dead.”
He quickly scratched a welter of new lines, all the connections he had ignored since his abduction by the Scarlet Spires. Then, in a hand too steady to be his own—for he was mad, he knew that now—he wrote,
THE DÛNYAIN
in the open space to the left of,
ANASÛRIMBOR KELLHUS
He held his quill above the ancient word for some time. Two drops of ink—tap-tap—marred the script. He watched them bleed outward, chasing a million infinitesimal veins, obliterating the word.
The ink drops seem to stand for Achamian and Cnaiur and for the fact that they have gone mad. (And this is due to Kellhus.)
That's interesting enough. But also, the ink drops "obliterate" a word on the paper. It's not clear whether that word is "Dunyain" or "Kellhus", though.
If it's "Kellhus" this would appear to foreshadow that Achamian and Cnaiur together will defeat Kellhus, aided by their madness. That's not what happens in the end, but they did try.
If it's "Dunyain", dunno. Could be about how Cnaiur kills Moenghus and Achamian is involved in the death of Koringhus.
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I like were you're going with this. But, I think the ink spread out over Kellhus's name and is foreshadowing of Ajokli taking over. Also Kellhu's madness.
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thinking of all the Scylvendi had said regarding the new Emperor, of how even now he marched on the Holy War from the west—or from the sea. “Warn them,” the leering shadow had said. “I would not see Proyas dead.”
:(
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Recall its not Kellhus in the sarcophagus. There was a lot of foreshawdowing that put Kellhus in the center of the whirlwind, but it was not to be. Very difficult to discern what was foreshadowing until after the fact ;) .
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he wrote,
THE DÛNYAIN
in the open space to the left of,
ANASÛRIMBOR KELLHUS
He held his quill above the ancient word for some time. Two drops of ink—tap-tap—marred the script. He watched them bleed outward, chasing a million infinitesimal veins, obliterating the word.
If it's "Dunyain", dunno. Could be about how Cnaiur kills Moenghus and Achamian is involved in the death of Koringhus.
Pretty sure it's "Dunyain" and, as Achamian says to Cnaiur, that word is just "Truth" in ancient Kuniuric - making that catch even more neat in my mind.
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Pretty sure it's "Dunyain" and, as Achamian says to Cnaiur, that word is just "Truth" in ancient Kuniuric - making that catch even more neat in my mind.
What is in question here? The quote is correct, it says "The Dûnyain."
Two drops of ink, one for Kellhus and one for Moënghus, which is what the two drops inspire Akka to do, write Moe's name. So, the two drops seem to be one for each of Kellhus and Moe, following their Thousandfold Thoughts, destroying (and remaking) the world.
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Pretty sure it's "Dunyain" and, as Achamian says to Cnaiur, that word is just "Truth" in ancient Kuniuric - making that catch even more neat in my mind.
What is in question here? The quote is correct, it says "The Dûnyain."
Two drops of ink, one for Kellhus and one for Moënghus, which is what the two drops inspire Akka to do, write Moe's name. So, the two drops seem to be one for each of Kellhus and Moe, following their Thousandfold Thoughts, destroying (and remaking) the world.
Lol. As per Clozee's quotes, the two drops of ink "obliterate" one word. I believe Clozee's question was whether the word "obliterated" is "Dunyain" or "Kellhus?"
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Lol. As per Clozee's quotes, the two drops of ink "obliterate" one word. I believe Clozee's question was whether the word "obliterated" is "Dunyain" or "Kellhus?"
Oh, whoops. Well, I would say Kellhus isn't "ancient" and Anisurimbor isn't just a word, rather it must be Dunyain, since that isn't just a name, but really is an ancient word.
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The ink obliterating 'truth' is a nice touch if you think about it that way :)
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I believe Clozee's question was whether the word "obliterated" is "Dunyain" or "Kellhus?"
Yep.
I think the two drops have to stand for two people who go mad. I present the reason for this below.
But first, if they do have to stand for two people who go mad, then they can't stand for Kellhus and Moenghus, because Moenghus didn't go mad.
(Or did he? Was the thousandfold thought a concoction of Ajokli, that he infected both Moenghus and Kellhus with, with the ultimate goal of getting himself into the golden room? I like this theory but it doesn't seem compatible with what Bakker has said in Q&A's. Bakker said that that Kellhus "failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought" because of Ajokli's influence.)
So why do they have to stand for two people that go mad? Because the ink drops bleed out in a similar way in both quotes. Again:
1:
... Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside leaked into the world.
This, he had said, was madness.
2:
... Two drops of ink—tap-tap—marred the script. He watched them bleed outward, chasing a million infinitesimal veins, obliterating the word.
So, which two people? I think the most obvious option is Achamian and Cnaiur. But I guess you could make the argument that one of them is Kellhus instead.
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I believe Clozee's question was whether the word "obliterated" is "Dunyain" or "Kellhus?"
Yep.
I think the two drops have to stand for two people who go mad. I present the reason for this below.
But first, if they do have to stand for two people who go mad, then they can't stand for Kellhus and Moenghus, because Moenghus didn't go mad.
(Or did he? Was the thousandfold thought a concoction of Ajokli, that he infected both Moenghus and Kellhus with, with the ultimate goal of getting himself into the golden room? I like this theory but it doesn't seem compatible with what Bakker has said in Q&A's. Bakker said that that Kellhus "failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought" because of Ajokli's influence.)
So why do they have to stand for two people that go mad? Because the ink drops bleed out in a similar way in both quotes. Again:
1:
... Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside leaked into the world.
This, he had said, was madness.
2:
... Two drops of ink—tap-tap—marred the script. He watched them bleed outward, chasing a million infinitesimal veins, obliterating the word.
So, which two people? I think the most obvious option is Achamian and Cnaiur. But I guess you could make the argument that one of them is Kellhus instead.
It seems to be Moënghus and Kellhus. Father and Son heralding the end of the World.
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Moenghus and Kellhus are my first instinct, but I'm not sure Moenghus makes sense.
I think the most objective answer is that Kellhus and Cnaiur are the two characters that go 'most mad'.
Cnaiur and Akka maybe, though I'm not sure Akka really 'goes mad' in the same way as the others.
Who else? Xerius and Conphas end up a bit nutty.
Xinemus definitely goes insane.
Speaking of guys who lose their eyes - Iyokus.
Maybe more esoteric, but The Three Seas entire, as well as Kian, under the tetelage of their respective Dunyain leaders, end up collectively going a bit mad.
The entire Scarlet Spires, or Eleäzaras himself, go mad.
There's really a lot of choices if you think about it.