Ok, so post TGO, what are people's feelings on Kellhus. Is he the savior of the world or it's literal end?
Ok, so post TGO, what are people's feelings on Kellhus. Is he the savior of the world or it's literal end?
The savior, yet he is the literal end of the Gods. Remember, whatever comes about of the GO is holy!
Ok, so post TGO, what are people's feelings on Kellhus. Is he the savior of the world or it's literal end?
The savior, yet he is the literal end of the Gods. Remember, whatever comes about of the GO is holy!
Holy according to who or what?
Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.
Here is one such example, there are others. But, if something later becomes holy, we have to assume that whatever comes about from the GO - civilization goes on and the GO was holy.QuoteVast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.
Here is one such example, there are others. But, if something later becomes holy, we have to assume that whatever comes about from the GO - civilization goes on and the GO was holy.QuoteVast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen—a name that would later become holy.
Yeah, holy in histories. According to Men. Holy to them. The holy gold standard is Mimara. Without her, everything is suspect. What men feel is holy is not necessarily so. After all, a good chunk of the Tusk is basically Inchie propaganda.
I think it's a crapshoot. So much history is buried under layers of lies agreed upon and God knows who will actually pen them down. The idea of Noble Lies comes to mind. People need to believe in something, even if it's not necessarily the truth as seen by an objective universe.
There are a few narrative ticks like that in TAE, they are enumerated somewhere on the forums.
After Sibawul is flogged for insubordination, the text says that "his was the name that would be heaped in shame in the scripture to follow", or something to that effect.
It happens three times again in TGO. Some narration is preceded by "According to the legends..." and again "According to the chroniclers..." when describing some action that the Ordeal is taking. In the map description at the end, it describes the Apophagia as a moniker given by contemporary historians, or something to that effect.
If Middle-Earth is disenchanted to becoming boring normal Earth, I have long suspected that the same thematic through-line is at play in TSA. The third series will be 1000 years+ in the future after all the action of these two trilogies. With metaphysically intentional Earwa disenchanted to becoming boring normal Earth-like. If fantasy fiction is scripture, as Bakker has often said, then the events in these 7 books will be regarded as the Old/New Testament of the times in the third series.
I honestly don't think we'll actually see much of the war of the titular "Second Apocalypse" on page, we'll only learn incidental details after the fact 1000 years later.
I just finished reading the ARC version of this thread and I've read this one earlier in the week. People debating whether Kellhus is a savior or not, the extent of his humanity/emotions and listing examples from the books got me to thinking about Akka crashing Kellhus's coronation at the end of the first trilogy. I guess I always thought (when I did think deeply at all about it) that Kellhus let Akka leave and live because of some kind of human connection/fondness for him, probably due to wishful thinking and my own natural inclination to want it to be that way. Does anyone else think that could have been a factor, or did Kellhus see his usefulness as a future tool far outweighing any threat he posed and was in total rational power strategist mode, with no emotion playing a part?
I just finished reading the ARC version of this thread and I've read this one earlier in the week. People debating whether Kellhus is a savior or not, the extent of his humanity/emotions and listing examples from the books got me to thinking about Akka crashing Kellhus's coronation at the end of the first trilogy. I guess I always thought (when I did think deeply at all about it) that Kellhus let Akka leave and live because of some kind of human connection/fondness for him, probably due to wishful thinking and my own natural inclination to want it to be that way. Does anyone else think that could have been a factor, or did Kellhus see his usefulness as a future tool far outweighing any threat he posed and was in total rational power strategist mode, with no emotion playing a part?
I just finished reading the ARC version of this thread and I've read this one earlier in the week. People debating whether Kellhus is a savior or not, the extent of his humanity/emotions and listing examples from the books got me to thinking about Akka crashing Kellhus's coronation at the end of the first trilogy. I guess I always thought (when I did think deeply at all about it) that Kellhus let Akka leave and live because of some kind of human connection/fondness for him, probably due to wishful thinking and my own natural inclination to want it to be that way. Does anyone else think that could have been a factor, or did Kellhus see his usefulness as a future tool far outweighing any threat he posed and was in total rational power strategist mode, with no emotion playing a part?
While I like something of Somnambulist's conjecture above, it might be as simple as, at the time, Kellhus couldn't risk stopping or otherwise refuting Achamian in his crowning moment, lest he risk Achamian disenchanting those assembled.
Call me the crazy guy who think Kellhus has feelings, but I think he genuinely like Akka and also respected him that he seen through his manipulations. I don't think the kneel part will be Akka kneeling to swear his allegiance again. Rather, kneeling to a dying Kellhus and having a little heart to heart, so to say.
I don't think Akka is manipulating or controlling Akka from afar. My bet is on a combo of Seswatha and Anagke. There is a fate for Akka and the Whore is leading him to his fate. Like the quote from Mimara about thinking they are on their own journey, but are just caught up in Fate. She says it's not even worth fighting anymore.
I don't know specifically why, but Kellhus definitely has a use for Akka.
I don't know specifically why, but Kellhus definitely has a use for Akka.
Just to keep stirring up the bubbling cauldron that is my crack-pot, I have puzzled over this time and time again. Why let Akka go free?
Now that I have fully dived off the edge and into my own brew, I will spice this with the idea that The Voice (recall, it is my position that TTT is directed by Kellhus himself, from the Outside, outside time) has told him to leave Akka alive. In that The Voice knows that he has a role to play, but Kellhus himself, Inside, within time, has no real idea why he is doing such. Only that he will return to him, and "kneel."
He needs Akka to get Mimara to Golgoterreth to look upon Kkelllhus and the No-God with the JE.
Wouldn't an easier solution be to bend her mind Dunyainly and teleport her in when you need her? Sperm is not hard to come by. (oh snap)
He needs Akka to get Mimara to Golgoterreth to look upon Kkelllhus and the No-God with the JE.
And I think we can take it a step further. He needed Mimara to run to Akka, because Akka would impregnate her and "cause" her to have the Judging Eye.
Yea, I'm really liking Kellhus as the guy in the visions and The Voice. What's scary though is that Kellhus tells Proyas that The Voice is mad, and he doesn't listen to it anymore.
I tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”
This seems to be the end of that exchange:QuoteI tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”
It sounds like Kellhus has given himself over to a kind of dark insanity. I've also never heard the language of becoming place so strongly used since the flashback to the trials at Ishual at the end of the Darkness that Comes Before. It almost seems like he's completely stamped out the remaining fragments within to become the pure embodiment of the Dunyain mission. I don't think he's a savior - he's already put too many nations to the sword and ordered too many atrocities to be carried out in his name. I don't think he cares at all about damnation, so long as it doesn't get in the way of achieving the Absolute and awakening the god.
This seems to be the end of that exchange:QuoteI tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”
It sounds like Kellhus has given himself over to a kind of dark insanity. I've also never heard the language of becoming place so strongly used since the flashback to the trials at Ishual at the end of the Darkness that Comes Before. It almost seems like he's completely stamped out the remaining fragments within to become the pure embodiment of the Dunyain mission. I don't think he's a savior - he's already put too many nations to the sword and ordered too many atrocities to be carried out in his name. I don't think he cares at all about damnation, so long as it doesn't get in the way of achieving the Absolute and awakening the god.
One thing to keep in mind is that everything Kellhus says to someone else is intended to manipulate, so it can't necessarily be taken at face value. Only his interior thoughts portray his true intentions and beliefs - and even then he could be deluding himself.
If fantasy fiction is scripture, as Bakker has often said, then the events in these 7 books will be regarded as the Old/New Testament of the times in the third series.
I honestly don't think we'll actually see much of the war of the titular "Second Apocalypse" on page, we'll only learn incidental details after the fact 1000 years later.
If Kellhus is aiming to disenchant the world, lock the gods and the Outside out, then maybe Bakker will be writing some scifi books.
Isn't he calling Proyas his most beautiful slave.Yes, the "it" in the passage is referring to Kellhus.
From what I recall of a interview, Bakker felt stifled by restrictions of real world when writing Neuropath. It was still a helluva of a book. Putting it down after finishing it, I had to sit in a shower for an hour or two and think.
He needs to write some more SF, damn it. His TPB shorts paint a compelling world
Welcome to the forum, Pig Teeth Shines (PTS?).Mabye because he wanted to achieve more power and become one of the leaders and they didn't want him to do that so he betrayed them or we will know in the unholy consult :-)
If Kellhus was trying to betray men to the consult, what of Zeum? Why do you think he left them?
I agree, but to be fair that was never his intention and I doubt it ever would be. The world is still gonna be fucked, whatever happens, though it might be more mundane if the Consult are gone.
This makes him both more as you said and less, as i disagree with you about his having feelings (or at least his understanding them, not using them as mere tools). To me, what Mimara and Drusas found out is of utmost importance, because they'll be the only one able to understand his question and answer to it when/if Kehllus become the No-God (which, in a sense , he already is).
Whether Kehlllus is aware of this or not, it totally makes sense to me that it is his path.
To me all this speaks to a Kellhus who, like everyone else in the series, is caught up in the mechanization of things beyond themselves. The irony of Kellhus is that, at least in my theory, it is himself that is beyond himself, he is indeed actually manipulating himself just as much, if not more, than he his manipulating everyone else. While the idea that Kellhus becomes the No-God isn't without merit, as you point out, but to me it doesn't seem to answer any of the questions about the aim of The Thousandfold Thought.
I totally agree with that ! To me, the thing is :It's a kind of Katabasis, kehllus has to go through "hell" before being able to transcend. (I really don't think he sides with the consult, wouldn't make any sense, just that he needs their tool)
- the gods aren't exactly what anyone would want to abide to, i mean is anyone not damned in this book ??
- the No-God is the only thing so far that could do something significant against the gods
Here's a theory (didn't see it mentioned so far, maybe already discussed ?):
TLDR : Kehllus is to become the No-God.
Why : Sorry but a bit of Mind-Body problem explanation is needed here. What i understood so far of the book's world is that it basically works as a Spinoza viewed ours. Id est free will is a lie (we only think ourselves free because we don't see what moves us), everything is a chain of causes and effects, AND there is actual difference between the physical world (PW) and the let's call it "soul world" (SW) where minds/thoughts/souls (whichever you prefer) live. How come we see connection between what we think in our soul (or mind) and the physical world ? Because God made the world so that the sequences in our soul coincide with those in the physical world, there is kind of the same logic in both and understanding one is understanding the other and both are determined on parallel paths.
Thus there is 2 major sins you can do (impossible for Spinoza but Bakker can do what he wants :) ), which both break the link PW/SW :
- you could apply on the PW the meanings born from your soul (the SW), therefore making something happen in the material world that wasn't cause nor can be explained by something in it. It's called magic, wizardry.
- or you could make something happen from your understanding of the PW (that is science) which has no SW equivalent. Let's dwell on this one : doing so is doing something that has literally no meaning, no soul. The first exemple of this is the Tekne, the second is the Dunyain program.
What the Survivor understood is the deep difference between knowing "how" and knowing "why", and that the Dunyain way is a dead-end in this regard (in France we say : science is knowing that tomatoes are fruits, wisdom is knowing not to put them in a fruit-salad).
Have the Inchoroi created the Dunyain sect or not, they both lead to the same thing (the dunyains being far more efficient) : the creation of something with the powers of a god but without any SW equivalent, therefore that cannot be seen from the SW and the gods.
Sorry for the english, not mother tongue