When Cnaiur returns to his tribe after Kiyuth and I realised just how batshit Bakker's barbarians were.
So awesome how Cnaiur's insanity is foreshadowed by him being the pinnacle of a maddeningly brutal culture.
In the early part of the book, far and away, Inrau's death. Tortured soul as he was, boy died like a fucking champ. One does not mess with Gnostic kung fu. :P
ANY scene with Conphas. He's a joy to read. Even though he's supremely young, I always, always picture James Purefoy's portrayal of Marc Antony from HBO's Rome. The smarm and cunning just fit the mold.
Yursalka's death, but for other reasons. Sure, I really like Cnaiur. Despite his insanity and utter brutality, he's one of the most compelling characters in the whole series. Hands down. However, Yursalka's death, man, that was hard. I understood his reasons and his horror. Despite the Scylvendi being what they are, Bakker did a fine job at making them people.
Cnaiur and Kellhus drawing up their cover stories. Here's Cnaiur beaten and bloody by Kellhus, fighting and trying to catch hold of his waning hope to find Moenghus. And Kellhus lays it out before him how they'll come to the Holy War, giving us one of the best lines of the book. "We shall come to them out of the darkness, Scylvendi. We'll be whoever we say we are." Gives me chills every time I read it.
Sranchammer, king of One Scene Wonders throughout the whole series thus far.
The late-book interrogation, that is all.
Quote from: SiderisANY scene with Conphas. He's a joy to read. Even though he's supremely young, I always, always picture James Purefoy's portrayal of Marc Antony from HBO's Rome. The smarm and cunning just fit the mold.So I'm not the only one.
The Prologue is one of my favorites actually. Though only after a re-reading. The prose there is quite beautiful, I think. "One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten." Other favorites include any scene where Cnaiur is THE MOST VIOLENT OF ALL MEN.
I'd have to agree. I appreciate the prologue (despite its wonky formatting) a lot more in the third go-around. The encounter with the Nonman is an especially good point, as is Kellhus losing it for a while.
I find the scene where Akka staggers back to camp, oblivious to all but his reeling thoughts, after the discovery of the Consult more and more profound with each reread
You're too late, Chigra.
Conphas' meeting with Xerius during his Triumph
That scene was one of the rare wins for the good Emperor.
Also, Mallahet and Skauras.
When I first flipped open the book to a random page, it was Conphas, saying something about the nature of men and how they follow. I think every page I flipped to had something interesting going on - honestly, if only one page in four had something interesting on it, I'd have bought it. But every page.
I will remember, Dunyain! I will remember!
Even then...having no idea about the history of the nonmen, there's something about that that stuck. Like a tower saying it's gunna remember you...
And the twig.
Or more to the point in how it returns. Agreened.
The prologue is wonderful.QuoteSo clear this place...and of courseQuoteRUN ANASURIMBOR RUN I WILL REMEMBER!!!!
Cnaiur and Kellhus travelling through the Steppe is one of my favourite moments in general, not only from the DTCBF.I think that was the point for me that i became a dedicated fan.
And yes i agree that almost everything including Conphas was brilliant.Such a fascinating character!!
Agree, Mog. I enjoyed the politicking of TDTCB but, absolutely, from Cnaiur finding Kellhus on his father's barrow and their journey across the Steppe to the Holy War has to be one of my favorite fantasy sequences ever.
I can't believe no one has mentioned that meditation scene!
The Logos is without beginning or end, bitches! :D
Fantastically original creation, right there. Utterly stunning. More than 20% cooler.
Speaking of Cnaiur, I can't remember specifically when it occurs, but there's a moment after reaching Momemn where for a brief instant Cnaiur actually feels horror and guilt for what he has delivered to the Holy War. That a Dunyain is a creature so terrible that even a Scylvendi shouldn't inflict it on his fellow man, even those that just exist as sacrifices to Lokung.
As he's watching Kellhus speak with Achamian, Serwe resting her head upon his lap. He's crouched behind something. It's sad I know that off the top of my head.
Hmm, tough one. One of Bakkers biggest strengths is realising how much he'd already been guiding you when you're rereading. Many scenes improve with the knowledge of what comes after.
I have a soft spot for the lesser but awesome characters like Athjeäri and Scranchammer and Gothyelk, etc. but I was really hooked by the time I'd read Cnaïurs pov on meeting Kellhus.
I can't say this is the my favorite scene of the book, if only because there are so many extraordinary ones. But here's one that got me thinking -- a scene of reflection that itself triggers a reflection, if you will.
This is after the first "fireside chat" between Kellhus and Achamian. Afterward Achamian returns to the lonely darkness of his tent and broods about the possibility of Kellhus being the Harbinger of the Second Apocalypse, and here's his reaction:
"Achamian began trembling, shaking with a horror he'd never before experienced while awake.
The No-God returning? Please, sweet Sejenus, let me die before ---
It was unthinkable! He hugged his shoulders and rocked in the blackness of his tent, whispering, "No!" Over and over again, "No!"
Please... This can't be happening -- not to me! I'm too weak. I'm just a fool..."
Now, here's my reflection on Achamian's reflection: this is a work of high fantasy. Every since the Council of Elrond, it's far from uncommon for some seemingly lowly character to assume the burden of the end of the world. What have been their reaction? Following the steps of Frodo -- some variation of stoic determination.
And here's Achamian, the intellectual of the story, a man who has a habit of self-reflection: wailing and gnashing of teeth -- I'm just a weak fool. Let me die before a burden of such lunatic proportion even has a chance of falling upon my shoulder.
Human, all too human. :(
It probably doesn't help that from the onset he has a far more intimate understanding of what such a thing would mean than say, Frodo has about Sauron and Mordor.
That's true, to a certain extent. Yet I think there's something more going on here. In these other stories (certainly including the mighty LOTR), no reader has any doubt about who will win in the end. Sure, some details must be worked out. Maybe some characters won't make it, but overall the "good" must triumph. And it seems that makes the non-freakout reaction of the characters in the stories quite acceptable. But for The Second Apocalypse, honestly even at this point (let alone in the first volume) I still have no idea what the end is going to be like -- if anything, the end gets more mysterious the more we go on. That makes Achamian's reaction much more sympathetic and understandable -- the world really could end.
Also, speaking of Achamian having a more intimate understanding, it seems to me this is yet another instance of Mr. Bakker pulling off an amazing trick almost effortlessly here. Think about it: what would be your reaction if some key character gets a prophetic dream and that turns out to be a big deal? Eye rolling galore. Yet by turning that dream into a real nightmare -- an endless series of nightmares seamlessly woven into a key character, his experience, his vocation, his personality, his development -- there is not the slightest whiff of hokeyness here.
We're looking back on decades of existence for the most renowned fantasy series on Earth. While the final outcome being the death of Sauron was likely never in question, the structure of the Two Towers and Return of the King, for a reader utterly ignorant of the story, could very well leave the impression that Frodo had died at Cirith Ungol. Unlike the films, the last you see of Frodo until over halfway through the Return of the King is him being stung by Shelob and his "corpse" taken to Cirith Ungol, while Sam picks up the Ring. By the time the book returns to Frodo and Sam, you've seen the scene at the Black Gate where the Mouth of Sauron offers Aragorn and Co Frodo's mithril coat. It really didn't look good for him.
But like Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father, it's simply impossible to go into that series and be surprised anymore.
You know, I never thought of that, and now I feel I missed an extremely important piece of that series that I can never experience. What a shame.
Kind of on that topic, I wonder about the 'book that shall not be named' - surely for future generations, they are gunna know the title when buying TDTCB. So do they miss out on that experience of not knowing? Seems unfair?
On the other hand, I suspect the supposed spoiler title will actually be highly obsfucated and only a few tin foil scarf wearers will get it in advance, so I'm guessing it wont be a spoiler at all.
I agree completely. I guess The Price of Nothing is a spoiler, as is TWP, WLW, TTT, and UC are all spoilers in their own right. Foreshadowing is much easier to see when you know whats going to happen. Its easy to see through the clues to the inevitable ending when you have already seen the end. I doubt the final title will be expectationaly spoilerific. Though who knows it could be "Kell and his reign as the no-god" or "A History of Nonmen: How they saved the world from Kell".
Kellhus Dies at the End.
"The Kellhus that dies before"
"It Was All a Dream."
lol!
"Maggie Simpson did it!"
Quote from: The SharmatSpeaking of Cnaiur, I can't remember specifically when it occurs, but there's a moment after reaching Momemn where for a brief instant Cnaiur actually feels horror and guilt for what he has delivered to the Holy War. That a Dunyain is a creature so terrible that even a Scylvendi shouldn't inflict it on his fellow man, even those that just exist as sacrifices to Lokung.I agree with every word you said :D
I loved Cnaiur. I have a thing about disfigured, tortured souls that I just sympathize with (Sandor Clegane, Cnaiur Urs Skiotha, Harry Potter...etc)
Oh and jk I HATE Harry Potter :evil:
I Lol'd. +1 for Cnaiur! Also, again, to all the spoiler names, that were suggested.
I had the opportunity of asking Bakker that once, Callan, and though, he's obviously been tight-lipped about it, he said he doesn't feel that TSTSNBN will, ultimately, spoil the experience for newcomers... which means it can't be a crazy spoiler.
unless of course TSTSNBN is a phantom, meant to throw us off the scent.
Juicy thought. Nice sig, lockesnow.
yeah, I thought it appropriate to this universe.
Geshruni and Achamian sceene in tavern in Carythusal (chapter 1). I just love this scene, the environment, noises, screams, atmosphere, dynamics. You are simply dragged into this place, like you're sitting next to them and nothing is like it seems... every wrong step leads to death.
Quote from: xanmcgregorGeshruni and Achamian sceene in tavern in Carythusal (chapter 1). I just love this scene, the environment, noises, screams, atmosphere, dynamics. You are simply dragged into this place, like you're sitting next to them and nothing is like it seems... every wrong step leads to death.
The juxtaposition of the whore and Akka is great, especially now after I've read all the books a few times. A great opening scene for Akka. "You lose, whore" is basically Akka's existence in a nutshell, given to us in his first appearance.
Kellhus & Cnaiur's journey across the Steppe is one of my favorite fantasy sentences ever.
Kellhus & Cnaiur's journey across the Steppe is one of my favorite fantasy sentences ever.
Welcome to The Second Apocalypse, v0id_walker.
Also, Wilshire, numbers will drop a few once I can reliably identify the remaining Spam-Sranc among the Nonmen Erratics...
Seconded! The realization that dawns as Cnaiur takes the measure of the son and sees the father is brilliant (as are the initial seeds of supposed Dunyain philosophy that are sown in the readers head).
Don't you squash my dreams.
The scene where Cnaiur makes a great stand against Conphas' legion and goes like:
"For a thousand years! Fucking your wives, strangling your children, and striking down your fathers... For a thousand years I have stalked you!"
I still remember him saying that. Damn, I loved this scene.
Not that i would ever want to meet Cnaiur in real life or anything or hang out
lol Cnaiur the-most-entertaining-of-men.
The final scene of TTT. OK yeah, I'm kind of an Achamian fanboy. This scene sealed it for me tho. AC-DC be damned, Akka's got the biggest balls of them all.
The final scene of TTT. OK yeah, I'm kind of an Achamian fanboy. This scene sealed it for me tho. AC-DC be damned, Akka's got the biggest balls of them all.
Best ending to a book ever (at least, the books I've read). "I renounce!" Yes!
Inrau's death, as my name attests.
Any scene where "weak and foolish" Achamian lays waste with the Gnosis. Seriously, if he's just some low ranked shlub in the Mandate, imagine what his "betters" can do. But mostly it's the juxtaposition between his appearance/demeanor and what he's capable of.
The final scene of TTT. OK yeah, I'm kind of an Achamian fanboy. This scene sealed it for me tho. AC-DC be damned, Akka's got the biggest balls of them all.
Seswatha's dreams. I so want to know more about the first apocalypse era. The tidbits from atrocity tales only whet the hunger.
The few glimpses we get into the Chishaurim. Another mystery among the many that are barley touched upon.
Pretty much any scene or description with Athjeari in it, mu mu makes me happy.(click to show/hide)
Can someone remind me who Athjeari is? Drawing a major blank...
(and was pretty fucking awesome at it IMO).
The most memorable scenes, where you see RSB's noschii, are the scenes where Dunyain confronts Dunyain. Inrilatus v Maithanet, Kellhus v Moenghus.
Also, it's a small scene, but when Akka asks Kellhus - why didn't you heal him in relation to Xinemus. It's brilliantly done!
Thanks for the welcome Madness. I don't know how much I have to contribute tbh, everything i've thought about this series has been teased out at length somewhere on this forum! But it's great to be hear, and read through all the posts from people who had the same thought I did and expressed it so well....
I wouldn't call it my favorite scene, but the part where Iyokus (that's not far from iyisku, btw) first summons a demon. I had it in my head that the ishual-dunyain view that the world was mundane was basically correct. Yes magic existed, but I thought that the existence of gods and demons was all a lie up until that point. Turned my view of the work on its head. I didn't not know what to make of it at first, did not really like it. I thought the dunyain had found the magic key to manipulate the world in treating it as governed by law and now...now who the fuck knows. The Outside is a huge trump card for everything. Every plot by everyone can be superseded by the great darkness that comes before :)
I think my favourite scene was when Akka comes back from torture and ciphrangs to the horrifying reality of the Holy War. When he finally creeps into Esmenet's room after all they've been through together and he stammers "where will it be next time?". For all the suffering and naked cruelty in these books, I think that simple scene really cut me deeper than any of the others on a personal level. Akka never knew peace in his dreams or will with his death and he endured it all because she was his morning...and she does him like that? I think I genuinely hated Esmi for a bit after that.
I think I genuinely hated Esmi for a bit after that.That was a painful scene, but I hated Kellhus for it, not Esmi. Esmenet had no chance against Kellhus.
She's the worst character in the books, I hate her
I think the male characters conform to basically male 'heroic' archetypes and exhibit just as many major faults as the females.
Maybe its easier to empathize with them and rationalize their actions, perhaps because Bakker is male and explains them better.
Maybe casting the females as archetypes and then trying show to their humanity beyond that was a mistake or a failure. I'm not sure.
Born as she was, she never really had a chance in her life, whatever she did, she would be fucked (pun intended). Since her mother wouldn't teach her reading stars, she could either sell her body or sell herself into slavery (which would be even worse).
So she became a whore. And here appears a problem. I guess a lot of men expect a typical whore to be more like Mimara - to hate her life, men who abuse her and be broken by what has happened to her. Esmi is different. She tries to find pleasure in what she does - and that's her way of getting even with the men. And while it's easy to feel sorry for poor abused Mimara, it's much harder to feel sorry for her mother.
As for why she stayed with Kellhus, even though Akka told her everything. Yes, you can say that she did it for power and wealth. But maybe, as Akka himself seems to believe, she did it, because Kellhus promised her that he will find her daughter.
But this is getting off topic. Someone should make a "which character do you loathe the most" topic if you'd like to continue.
Lol - that's a great story, Pansa. Hmm... I really do enjoy Conphas' return to Momemn; so many great moments in TDTCB.
When Skaurus isn't fazed at all and just pulls out a knife and starts filing his nails, I remember I was reading TWP in the University Law Library and I guffawed so loudly at the audacity of this Sapatishah, that I was asked to leave premises. Lol I miss Skaurus, he deserved more page-time, oh well.
Then, as though massacre possessed its own momentum, the Holy War’s occupation of Shigek degenerated into wanton carnage, though for what reason, no one knew. Perhaps it was the rumours of poisoned dates and pomegranates. Perhaps bloodshed simply begat more bloodshed. Perhaps their faith’s certainty was as terrifying as it was beautiful. What could be more true than destroying the false?
Word of the Inrithi atrocities spread among the Shigeki. Before the altar and in the streets the Priests of Fane claimed that the Solitary God punished them for welcoming the idolaters. The Shigeki began barricading themselves in their great, domed tabernacles. With their wives and children they gathered wailing on the soft carpets, crying out their sins, begging the God for forgiveness. The thunder of battering rams at the gates would be their only answer. Then the rush of iron-eyed swordsmen.
Every tabernacle across the North Bank witnessed a massacre. The Men of the Tusk hacked the screaming penitents into silence, then they kicked over the tripods, smashed the altars, tore the tapestries from the walls and the kneeling rugs from the floors. Anything carrying the taint of Fanimry they heaved into colossal fires. Beneath monstrous towers of smoke, dogs ate the heaped dead and licked blood from the broad steps.
None suffered more horribly than the Fanic priests. At night, the Inrithi used them for drunken sport, slicing open their bellies, leading them like mules by their own entrails. Some were blinded, some strangled, some were forced to watch their wives and daughters raped. Others were flayed alive. A great many were burned as witches.
In red-walled Nagogris, the maddened Men of the Tusk actually began slaughtering one another. Almost as soon as the Holy War had arrived at the city gates, the Shigeki governors remaining in the city sent emissaries to Ikurei Conphas, offering to surrender to the Empire in exchange for Imperial protection. Conphas immediately dispatched General Numemarius and a strong cohort of Kidruhil cavalry. Through some fatal mistake, however, the gates were thrown open to a large force of Thunyeri, who promptly began massacring and plundering the city. The Kidruhil attempted to intervene, and pitched battles broke out in the streets. When General Numemarius finally met with Yalgrota Sranchammer under flag of truce, the giant brained him.
Cnaiur makes me laugh a lot. Just viewed from outside the narrative.
the final scenes between Cnaiur and Conphas are some of my favorites--Cnaiur losing it by degree and Conphas showing off an impenetrable egoism. i've met people like Conphas and have wondered if some degree of violence could shatter their view of the world--Bakker made a plausible character survive with his illusion intact until the end? i can't tell if Conphas is really seeing his world crumble or not, i could very well think that he thinks it's still going to end in his favor via miracle or something
the final scenes between Cnaiur and Conphas are some of my favorites--Cnaiur losing it by degree and Conphas showing off an impenetrable egoism. i've met people like Conphas and have wondered if some degree of violence could shatter their view of the world--Bakker made a plausible character survive with his illusion intact until the end? i can't tell if Conphas is really seeing his world crumble or not, i could very well think that he thinks it's still going to end in his favor via miracle or something
Bakker's "pride is a defect from the womb" line does suggest that Conphas is a clinical sociopath from birth and can never have his ego shattered, no matter how many times Cnaiür ass-raped him. He's what criminal psychologists would call a pathological narcissist.