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Messages - Cuttlefish

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The Great Ordeal / Re: Serwa and Bakker's philosphy

« on: April 10, 2017, 08:48:23 pm »

My understanding of the most real world related, prime philosophical message of the Second Apocalypse is determinism. Men are ruled by a myriad of innate urges, the Legion Within, without ever realizing that their actions do not belong to their free will, but to these urges. The Dûnyain realize this, and even though they can't entirely free themselves, they can abuse it to rule others. To me, Serwa thinking that others were not real was an extension of the Dûnyain philosophy, just put in a unique kind of way because she did not get the full Dûnyain education, and is worldborn.

Why does she think Sorweel is "real", though? Surely, the Nonmen Sorweel merged with didn't make him free of the determinism, as he seemed as ruled by his passions as any man, if not more. I think at that point, Serwa kind of had a crush on Sorweel, because he was suddenly this hardass ancient soul who also happened to save her life and trigger the downfall of the collaborator Nonmen (and Serwa is still worldborn, after all - and it seems like even Kellhus fell in love with Esmenet judging by that line about how losing her will sink his heart into ruin or something like that), but it'll probably get explained better in the next book. I do feel like Bakker is setting things up for a second generation kind of thing, with Sorweel and Serwa, Kelmomas and Kellhus's full blooded Dûnyain grandson, who has none of the Dûnyain anti-emotional conditioning but all of the intellect.

The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts

« on: April 06, 2017, 08:43:40 pm »

Quote from: Wilshire on April 06, 2017, 02:53:03 pm

Quote from: Cuttlefish on April 06, 2017, 02:27:25 pm
Did I mention that I don't care for Mimara, at all?
Why's that? Is she your least favorite character?

I found her a bit tedious to read, and couldn't find anything to like about her. Characters who reach relevance in the world of Earwa all have things that justify their relevance - and usually, it's intellect. With Mimara, she is just handed a method to play a part in the story, as if a character like her absolutely needed to be in the story. I guess it's kind of like that with Sorweel as well, but him I liked a lot, because he is arguably the most human, the most normal guy in the whole series. That doesn't usually make for an interesting character, but in a setting where everyone is a philosopher-king, it's interesting to have a guy who just misses his dead parents, falls for a girl who doesn't care for him, and is trying to make sense of things beyond his control.

I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3

« on: April 06, 2017, 08:43:15 pm »

Quote from: Wilshire on April 06, 2017, 02:54:43 pm

Quote from: Cuttlefish on April 06, 2017, 02:30:33 pm
I don't get how these teasers work. Was this even a thing I was supposed to care about? I didn't even realize the guy had a son. I don't feel teased.
Next time you get sent a manuscript, you can pick your own teasers .
All MG did was become the single largest TSA social media distributor, groom contacts Overlook, contact audiobook publishers, get interviews, and generally convince everyone in the entire chain of command that he was someone important - all without any credentials or proof to support his claims. How hard could it be?

Oh, I don't mean to be a dick if it's a fan effort. I was just thinking that the teaser campaign was kinda falling flat for me, because with the exception of the thing about Achamian being deceived, none of it was about things that were already a subject of discussion. I actually went back after seeing this Lord Torturer thing to see if there were any hints in the last book that this could've been a storyline, but didn't see anything. But ahem, kudos for the effort and the passion for the series.

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] [ TUC Spoilers] MG teaser 3

« on: April 06, 2017, 02:30:33 pm »

I don't get how these teasers work. Was this even a thing I was supposed to care about? I didn't even realize the guy had a son. I don't feel teased.

The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts

« on: April 06, 2017, 02:27:25 pm »

Did I mention that I don't care for Mimara, at all?

The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts

« on: March 31, 2017, 02:35:15 am »

Quote from: MSJ on March 30, 2017, 12:42:43 am

This is all a very interesting discussion. But, doesn't Koringgus basically show us that the Absolute is false?

No, he realizes that the Dûnyain conception of the Absolute, as being a passive concept waiting to be reached is wrong. The Absolute already exists and already judges/shows judgement. Meanwhile, the worldborn are wrong in thinking that it has a human personality. What Koringhus thinks seems largely in conjuction with Kellhus's description of God of Gods to Proyas, so I think we can assume that, with both Dûnyain having reached the same conclusion through different paths, it's bound to be true.

Koringhus also realizes something both Moenghus and Kellhus already knew - that the brethren are not immune to the Legion Within. That's why he saved the defective, because it was his son, because he had a natural urge to save his own son. I think his "senseless" jump is largely in relation to this - he fully gives up on the Dûnyain Shortest Path, and surrenders to his urges, which push him towards the Absolute, in death.

Also, on the subject of Narindar, I don't quite see how the vessel of Ajokli could be self-moving, seeing that Ajokli moves him; or how the observer effect changes his routines. I am not quite convinced that the self-moving soul, the Absolute, could be physical at all - after all, the meat of the world is still subject to the Dûnyain principles of cause and effect.

The Great Ordeal / Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts

« on: March 29, 2017, 10:58:35 pm »

Quote from: Beardfisher King on March 29, 2017, 10:50:22 am

Quote from: Cuttlefish on March 29, 2017, 03:51:13 am

A third point I have in mind is about Kellhus himself. Being a fan of the character, I'm inclined to view him more positively (or at least, beyond good and evil), and I've been thinking about two things in particular. First is, his conversation in the original trilogy with Moenghus; basically, they're discussing the worldborn, and Kellhus asks (in relation to informing them) "But what about the Truth?", and Moenghus replies something like "they will never understand it, but you already know this, so why do you ask?". Now, the second thing is Kellhus's study of Proyas in the last book, where it is flated out stated that the purpose of the study is to discern the effects of the Truth on the worldborn. My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality?

A few thoughts in response:

1. The Absolute doesn't create a code of morality, it simply recognizes (or perhaps a better word would be illuminates) the objective morality that arises from the actions of men.

2. The Darkness that comes before all men does not necessarily mean that all men are ruled by their inner urges and, hence, there is no free will. It doesn't mean we can't know what moves us; it means we don't know what moves us.

Nice post, Cuttlefish.

1. The idea that the Absolute does not create morality, but rather just comprehends it could be true, but I strongly doubt that it arises from the actions of men. After all, how could it be objective, if it is influenced by men?

2. I think it largely means that they can't control what moves them. The Dunyain know what moves them, and in their folly, they thought that they could control it, but Moenghus flat out confirms that even the Dunyain are still moved by their urges, and Kellhus demonstrates it, I think twice, in the first trilogy and possibly once in the second.

---

Generally, though, the conception of the Absolute as being distinct from divinity creates an interesting possibility: what if Kellhus, or someone else, does actually reach it, and since the Absolute is not bound by anything, and therefore can't be bound by time, it exists all at once? In fact, the ways the Absolute influences the world, if it does at all, could be the product of a causal loop; the Absolute creating Kellhus (or whoever else) so that he can become the Absolute.

The Great Ordeal / In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts

« on: March 29, 2017, 03:51:13 am »

Hey, looks like I forgot about Bakker for a while, but doing a re-read of TGO made me think on several things. Rather than make a new thread for each, I thought a blanket thread would be better.

My first thoughts are on the Dûnyain. A practical question I'd have is, how do they avoid incest and its genetic ramifications for a thousand years, in a small community? Secondly, isn't it a bit suspicious that a sect so dispossessed of passions, particularly any facial gestures, and has no intention of actually interacting with rest of the world, is so obsessive in mastering them? A pet theory I have is that the first founders of Dûnyain, or perhaps a figure that influenced them, specifically influenced them towards their Shortest Path so that they'd create an individual like Kellhus that could possess entire nations, to the ends that he does.

A second thought that occured to me is; how close do you think the Anasurimbor conception of the Absolute is, to Fanimry? I am a bit too busy buried under studies to actually do a full re-read of the first trilogy, but as I recall, Fane alleged that there was a Solitary God, and the idols the Three-Seas worshipped were demons - now, the Anasurimbor don't actually believe that the Hundred are demons (but then again, what precisely is a demon?), but their perception of God, at its essence, seems to be solitary. In fact, Kellhus's full blooded Dûnyain son (what's his name - I keep forgetting names in this series), without the prior knowledge of Three Seas religions, perceives the Absolute as being singular. What are your thoughts? Do you think Fane was the true prophet, to begin with?

A third point I have in mind is about Kellhus himself. Being a fan of the character, I'm inclined to view him more positively (or at least, beyond good and evil), and I've been thinking about two things in particular. First is, his conversation in the original trilogy with Moenghus; basically, they're discussing the worldborn, and Kellhus asks (in relation to informing them) "But what about the Truth?", and Moenghus replies something like "they will never understand it, but you already know this, so why do you ask?". Now, the second thing is Kellhus's study of Proyas in the last book, where it is flated out stated that the purpose of the study is to discern the effects of the Truth on the worldborn. My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality? Because I don't think we've yet seen a person judged by Mimara, and was not damned; the only thing I can recall as being judged to be good is the chorae.

The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus

« on: August 01, 2016, 10:11:27 am »

Quote from: Madness on July 31, 2016, 02:34:38 pm

Just happens to be the first post of yours I've run into this morning, Cuttlefish, but well met and welcome to the Second Apocalypse !

Thanks! I've been following the Second Apocalypse for a long while now, but the usual friend I discuss it with has mysteriously disappeared (and probably replaced by a skin-spy), so I felt the need to find new people to discuss it with.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Best bits of the Great Ordeal.

« on: August 01, 2016, 10:06:50 am »

I really liked the part where the Survivor realizes he saved the child because it was his own. It was profound, that even thousands of years of conditioning could not stamp out the love a father felt for his son.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor

« on: July 30, 2016, 05:10:17 pm »

Quote from: MSJ on July 30, 2016, 04:38:03 pm

Quote from: Cuttlefish on July 30, 2016, 02:51:36 pm
Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".

Great catch! Even more proof of Kellhus caring. Just so you know I was on record on the podcast I was on before TGO, saying Kellhus cared and bases some of his decisions on that. I was summarily laughed at by the other casters....

IIRC, there was also a part of his inner monologue somewhere in the book, where he thinks that his original plan of letting his empire fall would also "sink his heart" because of Esmenet and his children.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor

« on: July 30, 2016, 05:08:25 pm »

I got the impression that he came to the realization that he grabbed the boy because of the Legion Within; because it was his son, without even fully realizing.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth

« on: July 30, 2016, 02:52:11 pm »

Quote from: MSJ on July 30, 2016, 01:18:04 pm

Quote from: Cuttlefish on July 30, 2016, 12:58:13 pm
I think it was pretty evident that Serwa's "song" at the end was supposed to be magic - she was gonna tear the place asunder.

So did I, but have you read the ARC thread link posted at the top of this thread? I'd say it's 50/50 on wether her singing will be mundane or sorcery.

Hmm, yeah, it seems debatable; but within the context, it really did feel like she was going to start casting magic. I suppose we'll see.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor

« on: July 30, 2016, 02:51:36 pm »

Quote from: MSJ on July 30, 2016, 02:01:41 pm

Quote from: Cuttlefish on July 30, 2016, 12:52:01 pm
I think, when people talk about how the son of the survivor can be a Dunyain who feels, they forget that all Dunyain can feel. Moenghus admits as much; Kellhus, in The Great Ordeal, seems to show genuine care for Esmenet. The survivor himself chooses a defective child because it is his son. So I don't think the child is different in that regard; he just isn't as well educated in the Dunyain Doctrine as the rest of them were.

Another interesting thing to note is that the Anasurimbor seem to be best Dunyain. Child Kellhus, in his flashbacks, seems smarter than the rest. And Moenghus calls for his son for his plan, rather than any other Dunyain, and he isn't exactly the sort that'd do that out of sentiment.

Cuttlefish, is it safe to say we can add you to the "Kellhus cares" camp? Meaning although he remains Dunyain, he cares about humanity and the ones he loves.

Yeah, I do believe he cares; and I am not alone in that regard. Remember, when Kelmomas talks to Thelli for the last time, and asks her if she cares, she says something like "I care, but just like father, the tracks I leave on the snow are light".

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The Parts Appalling

« on: July 30, 2016, 01:03:14 pm »

The whale-mothers thing reminded me a lot of daemoncubala from Warhammer 40k; it sorta amused me, because me and a friend had this recurring joke that Bakker should be the one to write 40k literature. I found it disappointing, though; since Kellhus chose Esmenet for her intellect, making her the only one capable of bearing his children, I thought Dunyain woman would be these immensely smart philosophers like the rest of the Dunyain. I suppose it makes sense that the purely pragmatical Dunyain would regard women as breeding tools, but even then, I can't help but wonder if the whale mothers were just as smart as the men - untapped potential, maybe.

Thelli's death was the thing that appalled me the most. I liked her a lot. Why did she have to die?

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