The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: mrganondorf on February 18, 2014, 05:18:18 pm
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Rereading TJE and got to the assault on Sakarpus--that concealing mist got me thinking that maybe this was Kellhus putting the anagogis to work. Previously I had thought
K + Gnosis = fucking awesome
K + Daimons = demons everywhere, k makes yatwer eat aurang
K + Anagogis = stupid, no use for inferior majik
But then that mist--then I thought, is the seeing flame anagogis? A dunyain (and a writer) would just love to lull everyone into a false impression and then BAM! Plus, if the anagogis is good for *appearances* that could be especially attractive for dunyain use as he is always at pains to manipulate all of everybody. WHAT SAY YOU?
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Thought of another one, again at the attack on Sakarpus, but also elsewhere. Kellhus' warping is preceeded by a bright light. If I'm a dunyain, I'd use the anagogis for the same trick, then I could get my enemies thinking that if there's not a bright light, then I haven't appeared. Then they would be fucked. I note kellhus pops in without much fanfare when Proyas visits and sees through the seeing flame.
Does Kellhus make that stork on the wall too? Crickey, for all I know, he is the stork.
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Hmm...not sure about your other notes, but I personally always interpreted that scene with Proyas, where Kellhus suddenly appears in the room, as him "coming out" of the fire-scrying. Like when you're looking into it, you're actually "inside it" (thus Kellhus's mention of "It's strange isn't it, the feeling of spacelessness?" -- not verbatim but that's basically what he says).
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Hmm...not sure about your other notes, but I personally always interpreted that scene with Proyas, where Kellhus suddenly appears in the room, as him "coming out" of the fire-scrying. Like when you're looking into it, you're actually "inside it" (thus Kellhus's mention of "It's strange isn't it, the feeling of spacelessness?" -- not verbatim but that's basically what he says).
Damn, I had not considered that. Now I know how TUC ends: Aurax "Over there's the bathroom, Mr. Kellhus, and in here (sinister laughter) we keep the INVERSE FIRE!" "Cool," says Kellhus, walks in, climbs in the fire, climbs out of a fireplace somewhere in western Canada, and sits down to write The Darkness that Came Before.
OR, Kellhus sticks his head in the IF and knocks up against the forehead of Sirius Black.
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K + Anagogis = stupid, no use for inferior majik
This. Anything the Anagogis can do, the Gnosis can do better.
Also, there are Cants, Wards, and Glamours, apparently, which actually do affect appearances or perception of them.
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I'd also postulate that a Dunyain would be significantly worse at the Anagogis than the Gnosis. The Gnosis is basically magical math. It's all very abstract and logic based. The Anagogis gets power from blurred meanings, similarities, and metaphor. Making reality do something different by tricking it into thinking they're the same. Not something the highly deterministic and analytical Dunyain are really good at feeling. Using as tools on people that are vulnerable to them, yes. But at Ishual they crush such self deceptions from their disciples at a young age. I imagine they'd have more talent for it than the Psukhe (if Moenghus truly was weak in it...but I'm not so sure about that.), but the Gnosis is practically ready made for Dunyain consumption. It's everything they train for.
I have to wonder how the Quya differs, though. I got the impression Nonmen are fairly different from men, cognitively. And the Gnosis is just a pale reflection of the Quya that humans picked up during the Tutelage, if I remember correctly.
I also have to wonder about the Aporos. Was it just a subset of lost techniques within the Quya, or an entirely different sorcerous school now lost to all but the Consult?
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I have to wonder how the Quya differs, though. I got the impression Nonmen are fairly different from men, cognitively. And the Gnosis is just a pale reflection of the Quya that humans picked up during the Tutelage, if I remember correctly.
I'm often unsure how human Gnosis compares to Quya Gnosis.
Mostly because in The False Sun Shaeonanra suggests he was told my Mekeritrig that Titirga was the most powerful sorcerer ever, human or otherwise (or so I interpreted the "purity of his recitations" line).
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I'd also postulate that a Dunyain would be significantly worse at the Anagogis than the Gnosis.
Huh. So Dunyain + Anagogis would run into some of the same issues as Dunyain + Psukhe. I'm not sure, Kellhus doesn't seem to have much problem with imagery when he preaches. I am hoping for at least one battle between a dragon and a fully conjured sorcerous dragon.
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That's the thing though. A Dunyain can conjure imagery, once exposed to it, by copying speech patterns. But they can never believe it, because they only use it to lie.
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As an aside, I think that comparing the theoretical ultimate skill in the Anagogis with the most crude applications of the Gnosis could tell us some things about language and sorcery as a whole.
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This has been quoted elsewhere but it's topical:
The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...
Differences between sorcerers sharing the same Metaphysics is determined in much the same way differences in any profession are: native ability, knowledge, training, and experience.
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This has been quoted elsewhere but it's topical:
The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...
Differences between sorcerers sharing the same Metaphysics is determined in much the same way differences in any profession are: native ability, knowledge, training, and experience.
Woah! Does that mean that Kellhus will get exactly the same value from both?
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Hmm... I'm sure Kellhus could do things with the Anagogic Cants that no one else can, if he so choose? Could he not craft the most subtle and complicated analogies and metaphors?
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To me that quote says simply that there is no difference between anagogic and gnostic magic... Which is also like saying there is no difference between arithmetic and calculus.
I did not realize that man possessed magic before the Tutelage. This strikes me as odd, since both schools now use nonmen language to sing. Damnit. I guess magic is truly disconnected from language since the early men used Thoti-Eannorean... Unless even that language had some 'alien' influence.
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Hmm... I'm sure Kellhus could do things with the Anagogic Cants that no one else can, if he so choose? Could he not craft the most subtle and complicated analogies and metaphors?
Madness, that quote is still detonating in my head--it seems so at odds with the presentation of the gnosis/anagogis throughout the series. Any chance this is an erroneous quote--I mean a later-author-recant? I suspected/hoped that Kellhus would do something cool with the anagogis because of its power for visual imagery and because his foes wouldn't expect it. That the anagogis could do just as much for a dunyain seems strange. It's like the gnosis really is a version of the anagogis that simply relies on geometric analogies (and further developed) and nothing more.
@ Wilthsire - I hope we do get something about pre-nonman sorcery. Was it less potent. Did it still damn? Could we have an Atrocity Tale please???
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I was also thinking that sorcery was akin to mathematics, as Wilshire pointed out. I read that quote as, basically, the Gnosis is the Meta-Anagogis, the refining, expanding principle inherent in sorcery taken to the next level (i.e., arithmetic vs. calculus or trig). Or maybe its artists (using imagery to show an effect) vs. scientists (using formulas to describe the effect).
There was a scene in the books (maybe TWP?) where Akka muses about Kelhus' potential as a Shaman, someone who uses sorcery and can heal like a prophet. Were Shamans prophets, or prophets Shamans? Could someone be a prophet without being a Shaman, or be a Shaman without being a prophet? Xinemus believed that prophets could heal, implying some supernatural ability (i.e., restoring sight to the blind). Maybe at some point there was a schism where Shamans ceased to exist, when Sorcerers and prophets became separate things. So, a Sorcerer would be a false prophet (speaking only the destructive words of God), whereas a prophet can only speak the restorative words of God (heal). Maybe Shamans were balanced and thus not damned. Begs the question: can Cishaurim heal?
Went on a tangent there.
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@ Wilthsire - I hope we do get something about pre-nonman sorcery. Was it less potent. Did it still damn? Could we have an Atrocity Tale please???
I don't think I've ever seen you spell my name properly... Is it truly so terrible?
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@ Wilthsire - I hope we do get something about pre-nonman sorcery. Was it less potent. Did it still damn? Could we have an Atrocity Tale please???
I don't think I've ever seen you spell my name properly... Is it truly so terrible?
OHDEARGOD - I swear your name looked different right after you pointed it out to me! My sincerest apologies,
-Mr. Gravy Dork
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lol there is no 't'. At first I figured it was an accident but you've done it pretty consistently. So then I thought I was missing some kind of inside joke.
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lol there is no 't'. At first I figured it was an accident but you've done it pretty consistently. So then I thought I was missing some kind of inside joke.
Apparently the joke was inside my own brain between two parts of me that enjoy making me look jerky to a stranger who shares my Bakker hobby.
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You'll have to work harder to offend the likes of me via the internet. No harm done.
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You'll have to work harder to offend the likes of me via the internet. No harm done.
That's alright, I've noticed at least two examples of Madness calling me Wilshire and calling you FB.
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You'll have to work harder to offend the likes of me via the internet. No harm done.
That's alright, I've noticed at least two examples of Madness calling me Wilshire and calling you FB.
I've never called FB you nor accused him of being Wilshire... Common' ;).
Time (between novels) has made me Erratic.
EDIT:
Xinemus believed that prophets could heal, implying some supernatural ability (i.e., restoring sight to the blind). Maybe at some point there was a schism where Shamans ceased to exist, when Sorcerers and prophets became separate things. So, a Sorcerer would be a false prophet (speaking only the destructive words of God), whereas a prophet can only speak the restorative words of God (heal). Maybe Shamans were balanced and thus not damned. Begs the question: can Cishaurim heal?
I don't know specifically about the bold.
But there is a story in PON about Sejenus returning the criminal Horomon's sight. This is why I think Kellhus being unable to heal Xinemus is the most Damning (yay, puns) evidence against his righteousness.
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Whats the LOTR things about true Kings having healing hands? Kellhus is not our fantasy genre righteous-divine King.
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You'll have to work harder to offend the likes of me via the internet. No harm done.
That's alright, I've noticed at least two examples of Madness calling me Wilshire and calling you FB.
I've never called FB you nor accused him of being Wilshire... Common' ;).
Time (between novels) has made me Erratic.
EDIT:
Xinemus believed that prophets could heal, implying some supernatural ability (i.e., restoring sight to the blind). Maybe at some point there was a schism where Shamans ceased to exist, when Sorcerers and prophets became separate things. So, a Sorcerer would be a false prophet (speaking only the destructive words of God), whereas a prophet can only speak the restorative words of God (heal). Maybe Shamans were balanced and thus not damned. Begs the question: can Cishaurim heal?
I don't know specifically about the bold.
But there is a story in PON about Sejenus returning the criminal Horomon's sight. This is why I think Kellhus being unable to heal Xinemus is the most Damning (yay, puns) evidence against his righteousness.
Well, you got me thinking: what if Kellhus DID have the power and was merely shocked by Akka's presumption? Restoring sight to the blind in TUC (perhaps Proyas?) would seal the deal for Kellhus to be worthy of worship.
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Lol - for the reader? I think Kellhus has mostly won over his world.
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Lol - for the reader? I think Kellhus has mostly won over his world.
Maybe for the reader and/or some kind of higher level of devotion.
Can't think of where else to write this, but I really want to see a scene where Kellhus is conducting a concert of sorcery via possession. At the crucial moment, he 'seizes' control of hundreds of sorcerers and has them do some never before dreamt of bit of harmony magic. Ark lifts off the ground, flung into space!
Maybe if he can just use the NG to get all of the critters in the Ark, he can just boil it from the outside.