[mrganondorf]

Rereading TJE and got to the assault on Sakarpus--that concealing mist got me thinking that maybe this was Kellhus putting the anagogis to work.  Previously I had thought

K + Gnosis = fucking awesome
K + Daimons = demons everywhere, k makes yatwer eat aurang
K + Anagogis = stupid, no use for inferior majik

But then that mist--then I thought, is the seeing flame anagogis?  A dunyain (and a writer) would just love to lull everyone into a false impression and then BAM!  Plus, if the anagogis is good for *appearances* that could be especially attractive for dunyain use as he is always at pains to manipulate all of everybody.  WHAT SAY YOU?

[mrganondorf]

Thought of another one, again at the attack on Sakarpus, but also elsewhere.  Kellhus' warping is preceeded by a bright light.  If I'm a dunyain, I'd use the anagogis for the same trick, then I could get my enemies thinking that if there's not a bright light, then I haven't appeared.  Then they would be fucked.  I note kellhus pops in without much fanfare when Proyas visits and sees through the seeing flame.

Does Kellhus make that stork on the wall too?  Crickey, for all I know, he is the stork.

[Francis Buck]

Hmm...not sure about your other notes, but I personally always interpreted that scene with Proyas, where Kellhus suddenly appears in the room, as him "coming out" of the fire-scrying. Like when you're looking into it, you're actually "inside it" (thus Kellhus's mention of "It's strange isn't it, the feeling of spacelessness?" -- not verbatim but that's basically what he says).

[mrganondorf]

Hmm...not sure about your other notes, but I personally always interpreted that scene with Proyas, where Kellhus suddenly appears in the room, as him "coming out" of the fire-scrying. Like when you're looking into it, you're actually "inside it" (thus Kellhus's mention of "It's strange isn't it, the feeling of spacelessness?" -- not verbatim but that's basically what he says).

Damn, I had not considered that.  Now I know how TUC ends: Aurax "Over there's the bathroom, Mr. Kellhus, and in here (sinister laughter) we keep the INVERSE FIRE!"  "Cool," says Kellhus, walks in, climbs in the fire, climbs out of a fireplace somewhere in western Canada, and sits down to write The Darkness that Came Before.

OR, Kellhus sticks his head in the IF and knocks up against the forehead of Sirius Black.

[Madness]

K + Anagogis = stupid, no use for inferior majik

This. Anything the Anagogis can do, the Gnosis can do better.

Also, there are Cants, Wards, and Glamours, apparently, which actually do affect appearances or perception of them.

[The Sharmat]

I'd also postulate that a Dunyain would be significantly worse at the Anagogis than the Gnosis. The Gnosis is basically magical math. It's all very abstract and logic based. The Anagogis gets power from blurred meanings, similarities, and metaphor. Making reality do something different by tricking it into thinking they're the same. Not something the highly deterministic and analytical Dunyain are really good at feeling. Using as tools on people that are vulnerable to them, yes. But at Ishual they crush such self deceptions from their disciples at a young age. I imagine they'd have more talent for it than the Psukhe (if Moenghus truly was weak in it...but I'm not so sure about that.), but the Gnosis is practically ready made for Dunyain consumption. It's everything they train for.

I have to wonder how the Quya differs, though. I got the impression Nonmen are fairly different from men, cognitively. And the Gnosis is just a pale reflection of the Quya that humans picked up during the Tutelage, if I remember correctly.

I also have to wonder about the Aporos. Was it just a subset of lost techniques within the Quya, or an entirely different sorcerous school now lost to all but the Consult?

[Madness]

I have to wonder how the Quya differs, though. I got the impression Nonmen are fairly different from men, cognitively. And the Gnosis is just a pale reflection of the Quya that humans picked up during the Tutelage, if I remember correctly.

I'm often unsure how human Gnosis compares to Quya Gnosis.

Mostly because in The False Sun Shaeonanra suggests he was told my Mekeritrig that Titirga was the most powerful sorcerer ever, human or otherwise (or so I interpreted the "purity of his recitations" line).

[mrganondorf]

I'd also postulate that a Dunyain would be significantly worse at the Anagogis than the Gnosis.

Huh.  So Dunyain + Anagogis would run into some of the same issues as Dunyain + Psukhe.  I'm not sure, Kellhus doesn't seem to have much problem with imagery when he preaches.  I am hoping for at least one battle between a dragon and a fully conjured sorcerous dragon.

[The Sharmat]

That's the thing though. A Dunyain can conjure imagery, once exposed to it, by copying speech patterns. But they can never believe it, because they only use it to lie.

[Meyna]

As an aside, I think that comparing the theoretical ultimate skill in the Anagogis with the most crude applications of the Gnosis could tell us some things about language and sorcery as a whole.

[Madness]

This has been quoted elsewhere but it's topical:

The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...

Differences between sorcerers sharing the same Metaphysics is determined in much the same way differences in any profession are: native ability, knowledge, training, and experience.

[mrganondorf]

This has been quoted elsewhere but it's topical:

The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...

Differences between sorcerers sharing the same Metaphysics is determined in much the same way differences in any profession are: native ability, knowledge, training, and experience.

Woah!  Does that mean that Kellhus will get exactly the same value from both?

[Madness]

Hmm... I'm sure Kellhus could do things with the Anagogic Cants that no one else can, if he so choose? Could he not craft the most subtle and complicated analogies and metaphors?

[Wilshire]

To me that quote says simply that there is no difference between anagogic and gnostic magic... Which is also like saying there is no difference between arithmetic and calculus.

I did not realize that man possessed magic before the Tutelage. This strikes me as odd, since both schools now use nonmen language to sing. Damnit. I guess magic is truly disconnected from language since the early men used Thoti-Eannorean... Unless even that language had some 'alien' influence.

[mrganondorf]

Hmm... I'm sure Kellhus could do things with the Anagogic Cants that no one else can, if he so choose? Could he not craft the most subtle and complicated analogies and metaphors?

Madness, that quote is still detonating in my head--it seems so at odds with the presentation of the gnosis/anagogis throughout the series.  Any chance this is an erroneous quote--I mean a later-author-recant?  I suspected/hoped that Kellhus would do something cool with the anagogis because of its power for visual imagery and because his foes wouldn't expect it.  That the anagogis could do just as much for a dunyain seems strange.  It's like the gnosis really is a version of the anagogis that simply relies on geometric analogies (and further developed) and nothing more.

@ Wilthsire - I hope we do get something about pre-nonman sorcery.  Was it less potent.  Did it still damn?  Could we have an Atrocity Tale please???