[Seökti]

I happened across this topic right after posting something very similar in another thread.  Basically, I believe Kellhus believes he is the harbinger of the Kelmomian prophecy, which calls into question the Dunyain themselves (why did Moenghus leave? Why did they teach sorcery to be a lie?).  Much more importantly I believe that Kellhus is correct in his beliefs, that he is a Prophet who has come to bring about the ending of the Consult. 

But it is entirely possible that I'm wrong.

[Uncle Holy]

By human standards, kellhus is a monster...that said, i believe he wants to save the world...i think he genuinely believes the God works through him...what he'll do after saving the world is anybody's guess...though most likely, he'll cement his rule over Earwa ....but that depends on the state of his army when he's done...

[Simas Polchias]

Personally I'm convinced that everything about ascension, reaching absolute, becoming a self-moving souls etc. is inevitably connected with some timey-wimey paradox stuff. So, if Kellhus believes he is speaking with God, it just can be Kellhus-Emperor being conditioned by future Kellhus-God for becoming himself (Emperor -> God). That circumstance makes it impossible to discern a human from a god and thus spares human part of being a subject of morality.

[mrganondorf]

I happened across this topic right after posting something very similar in another thread.  Basically, I believe Kellhus believes he is the harbinger of the Kelmomian prophecy, which calls into question the Dunyain themselves (why did Moenghus leave? Why did they teach sorcery to be a lie?).  Much more importantly I believe that Kellhus is correct in his beliefs, that he is a Prophet who has come to bring about the ending of the Consult. 

But it is entirely possible that I'm wrong.

this is cool! -- are you saying that the Dunyain tried to fulfill the prophecy with Moenghus but got it wrong?  kind of like what happens in Dune with the Kwizathaderach (sp?)

[Wilshire]

Personally I'm convinced that everything about ascension, reaching absolute, becoming a self-moving souls etc. is inevitably connected with some timey-wimey paradox stuff. So, if Kellhus believes he is speaking with God, it just can be Kellhus-Emperor being conditioned by future Kellhus-God for becoming himself (Emperor -> God). That circumstance makes it impossible to discern a human from a god and thus spares human part of being a subject of morality.

This doesn't seem terribly far fetched, since we know the gods see time differently, or exist at all times at once, etc. etc. If at any point a being ascended from the Earwa plane into the 'Outside', from the POV of Earwa history that person was always a god, and the new god's name would appear in historical scriptures, would have cults that existed centuries before the actual ascension, etc.

Kellhus conditioning the ground for himself... Well he's certainly not making it too easy.

[Seökti]

this is cool! -- are you saying that the Dunyain tried to fulfill the prophecy with Moenghus but got it wrong?  kind of like what happens in Dune with the Kwizathaderach (sp?)

I'm thinking that the Dunyain did not fail with Moenghus, but that Moenghus was necessary to set the stage for Kellhus to even be possible (think of Maithanet, of Moenghus' creation of the very Holy War which saw Kellhus made Aspect-Emperor).  The same is probably the case for their lie about the existence of sorcery.  It makes sense that they would lie to one another in order to condition Kellhus.  I'm suggesting that the Dunyain were and potentially always have been attempting to fulfill the Celmomian Prophecy and thereby create a (singular) soul (Kellhus) capable of transcending the circle of causation (meaning that he would be one who is determined by what is to come as opposed to what came before), and thereby save mankind.

[mrganondorf]

this is cool! -- are you saying that the Dunyain tried to fulfill the prophecy with Moenghus but got it wrong?  kind of like what happens in Dune with the Kwizathaderach (sp?)

I'm thinking that the Dunyain did not fail with Moenghus, but that Moenghus was necessary to set the stage for Kellhus to even be possible (think of Maithanet, of Moenghus' creation of the very Holy War which saw Kellhus made Aspect-Emperor).  The same is probably the case for their lie about the existence of sorcery.  It makes sense that they would lie to one another in order to condition Kellhus.  I'm suggesting that the Dunyain were and potentially always have been attempting to fulfill the Celmomian Prophecy and thereby create a (singular) soul (Kellhus) capable of transcending the circle of causation (meaning that he would be one who is determined by what is to come as opposed to what came before), and thereby save mankind.

oh man, you made me think that it could be an on going project--that the dunyain are unwilling to bet on only one guy to fulfill the prophecy, that they are still planning for centuries to come!  (some) dunyain attempts to fulfill the prophecy: Sejenus, Fane, Moenghus, Kellhus...

[Wilshire]

this is cool! -- are you saying that the Dunyain tried to fulfill the prophecy with Moenghus but got it wrong?  kind of like what happens in Dune with the Kwizathaderach (sp?)

I'm thinking that the Dunyain did not fail with Moenghus, but that Moenghus was necessary to set the stage for Kellhus to even be possible (think of Maithanet, of Moenghus' creation of the very Holy War which saw Kellhus made Aspect-Emperor).  The same is probably the case for their lie about the existence of sorcery.  It makes sense that they would lie to one another in order to condition Kellhus.  I'm suggesting that the Dunyain were and potentially always have been attempting to fulfill the Celmomian Prophecy and thereby create a (singular) soul (Kellhus) capable of transcending the circle of causation (meaning that he would be one who is determined by what is to come as opposed to what came before), and thereby save mankind.

This is good, except that this implies that the Dunyain knew of the prophesy from the start, or at least very early on, and I thought that Celmomas didn't die until after the Dunyain too up refuge in Ishual.

[Seökti]

This is good, except that this implies that the Dunyain knew of the prophesy from the start, or at least very early on, and I thought that Celmomas didn't die until after the Dunyain too up refuge in Ishual.

I don't remember that being made explicit either way, so I am making that assumption.  The opening of TDTCB has a child crying alone (after killing the man set to guarding him) in the ruins of what might be Ishual.  The Dunyain happen upon this child.  I drew from this the assumption that Celmomas had therefore already died (why else would the child, likely of the Anasaurimbor line, be left with one person to watch him in a ruin?).  Ishual was supposed to be Celmomas' refuge - thus I am unsure as to why it would be 'abandoned' before his death.

[H]

this is cool! -- are you saying that the Dunyain tried to fulfill the prophecy with Moenghus but got it wrong?  kind of like what happens in Dune with the Kwizathaderach (sp?)

I'm thinking that the Dunyain did not fail with Moenghus, but that Moenghus was necessary to set the stage for Kellhus to even be possible (think of Maithanet, of Moenghus' creation of the very Holy War which saw Kellhus made Aspect-Emperor).  The same is probably the case for their lie about the existence of sorcery.  It makes sense that they would lie to one another in order to condition Kellhus.  I'm suggesting that the Dunyain were and potentially always have been attempting to fulfill the Celmomian Prophecy and thereby create a (singular) soul (Kellhus) capable of transcending the circle of causation (meaning that he would be one who is determined by what is to come as opposed to what came before), and thereby save mankind.

This is good, except that this implies that the Dunyain knew of the prophesy from the start, or at least very early on, and I thought that Celmomas didn't die until after the Dunyain too up refuge in Ishual.

They most probably did know of the Prophecy.  In fact, it's my belief that not only did they know of it, but it was indeed why they were sent there in the first place.  First, the timeline matches up, Celmomas died in 2146, the Dunyain arrive at Isual in 2147.  Indeed, in the prologue, we are presented from the start with the fact that it was the High King who had fled there, that High King being Ganrelka II, who would only be so if Celmomas was indeed dead.

Ishual was more than a refuge though, it was a refuge for the Anisurimbor lineage.  "Seeds" is what Celmomas tells Seswatha and a "place where my line can outlive me."  Only two people could have sent the Dunyain to Ishual, Celmomas or Seswatha.  I think Seswatha is a more likely candidate, but this doesn't discount Celmomas being complicit somehow.

I found love to ask Scott about Asimov's Foundation Series, because I have a feeling that Seswatha is Bakker's Hari Selden...

[Wilshire]

1 year doesnt seem like quite enough time, but not impossible. How close was Celmomas' death to where the Dunyain originally were.

It does, however, seem unlikley that they were stumbling around the wasted north without any purpose and managed to find Ishual with no indication that it actually existed. Why else would they be traveling towards Golgotterath and not farther away...

Regarding Asimov and The Foundation, I agree. But if Ishual is in fact the Foundation, who then was the 2nd? There must be an anlogue to complete the allusion imo. Maybe the Cishaurim?

[H]

1 year doesnt seem like quite enough time, but not impossible. How close was Celmomas' death to where the Dunyain originally were.

It does, however, seem unlikley that they were stumbling around the wasted north without any purpose and managed to find Ishual with no indication that it actually existed. Why else would they be traveling towards Golgotterath and not farther away...

Regarding Asimov and The Foundation, I agree. But if Ishual is in fact the Foundation, who then was the 2nd? There must be an anlogue to complete the allusion imo. Maybe the Cishaurim?

My theory would be that the Mandate is the First Foundation, Dunyain the Second.  Of course, it is different in it's way, but similar in intent.

I think a year is probably more than enough time to get the Dunyain there, since I feel confident that Seswatha had planned this long before Cel was dead.  In fact, he probably planned it not long after Cel gives him the map.  Only Ses and Cel know where Ishual is and since Cel is dead, it's unlikely he both created the Dunyain and Ishual, or else why not have them there the whole time?

No, to me Cel's plan was that Ganrelka II would go there and they would live and use the "seeds" there to continue the line.  He couldn't know about the plague.  Indeed, there is a good question of if the plague was even 'natural' in this case.

It had to be Seswatha sending the Dunyain to Ishual in my mind.

[Wilshire]

Oh right, duh, the Mandate are the 1st. I'm sure this has been brought up elsewhere, maybe even by me lol.

...


Ok yeah, I have brought it up before once or twice, and so have others. Some regarding Moenghus being Seldon, and thus Meppa/psukhe being 2nd foundation, other for Seswatha -> Mandate/Dunyain.

I always wondered why Atyersus was established where it was... Second Foundation First Foundation ?!

Making Ishual "at the end of the universe" . I have become a fan of this allusion. I say plausible. One seen, one unseen. One to conquer the physical world, the other to conquer the mental. One to save, one to save the would be saviors.

Also, a wilshire original:

Meppa as Moenghus' father is an interesting idea. I'd be way more satisfied with that explanation than having Moe come back in any way. A special dunyain for every generation also fits, though wouldn't Meppa need to be much older if that was the case? I doubt he would have aged gracefully in the desert.

Foundation/Second Foundation crackpot, the Dunyain are actually 2 sects developed to maximize the extreme ends of sorcery, Intellect and Emotion. None but the highest up know that there is no-Dunyain sect running around. Meppa is the strongest of the emotion side, Kellhus the intellect. Kellhus was supposed to be female and breed with the Meppa stock and become the kwisatz haderach. He's one generation early....

[Bolivar]

I've been convinced that the Dunyain were a Consult experiment and that they knew the existence of Ishual as well. Either Seswatha disclosed its location to Mekeritrig while subjected to the Cants of Agony or they learned  of it through the Bardic priest. If he really is a Consult mole, as many suspect, it stands to reason he told them where the court was going and engineered the plague, which he conveniently survived, to pave the way for the Dunyain arrival.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[Wilshire]

I dont buy any of those things. There just doesnt seem to be any positive evidence for that stuff. Might as well say it was a Cishaurim from before they even existed, some time travel foolishness looping back timelines... seems as plausible to me as the Consult.