The Second Apocalypse
Miscellaneous Chatter => General Misc. => Topic started by: MSJ on November 03, 2016, 09:07:33 pm
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This is just in response to Hiro and my exhange and the confusion henceforth. Again, apologies Hiro if you thought it directed at you and can see why you could think that. I'm a internet stooge sometimes and don't convey enough information in my posts for people to clearly understand my intent.
First, let me give you a little background on me. I as raised by my grandparents. My biological mom had me when she was 15, dad was 17. Neither were fit to raise me and my younger brother and my father's parents raised me. My BM (biological mom from here on out) then went on to marry a black man. Never had a great relationship with BM when I was younger, let's just say she had her own personal demons. But my step-father was there for me to make sir I had a relationship with my half sisters (whom are obviously half black). Till this day I have more love for him than my BM. I had great relationships with my sister's, all but one who seemed to think of me as a honky (funny since we both came out of a white woman, though that is bridge under the water.). But me giving everyone this back story of my life is to show as a "so-called privileged white make I've dealt with racism my entire life. I live in WV, where these kinds familys, you could say, can be look down upon. I've been called n****s lover for simply having black sisters, dealt with my BM being stared at and sneered at while in public with all these "different"looking kids. And that doesn't even touch the surface, those are some vanilla examples, there have been worse, fights where my step-father didn't put up with that. What I'm saying is im no stranger to racism. I've seen the uglines of it And fought against it my entire life.
That being said, in referring to Wilshire's statement is was more in regard to people wanting to be offended, wanting to feel wrong. It's EVERYONE, every ethnicity, social demographic, the rich, the poor and son and so on. I've made several attempts to call people in this bullshit on Facebook and ask them to try and find a solution to these problems. Guess what? No responses, other than from my aisters who know my intentions, know where my heart on these issues truly lie. And, it's not just minorities or women, it's white men, executives, businessmen, again EVERYONE. It's like everyone feels they have to right to blame their problems on everyone else, take insult to any words that might offend their ears, without looking at intent, exact what Wilshire said.
So, I'll ask you guys. What can we do to stop all of this division? To stop everyone bitching and moaning and blaming their lot in life on racism and sexism and any other ism you can think of. It's so rampant and, to me, causes more harm than good. It just keeps the division and hate at the front and center. I've yet to have anyone offer me any kind of solution, or hell, a way to start moving towards one. Or, is this just human nature and this will always exist? This want to take sides and "go to war" over what in my mind, could be solved by open minds and a willingness to cooperate.
So there, I've opened up, told you a little about my background and where I'm coming from and how I see these issues. I'm sure this thread will get looked at and no one will want to touch it. But, it's something that weighs heavily on me. As a white male, I've experienced the hate of racism first hand, when supposedly that cannot be the case, because of white privilege and all that. I'd just like to hear other stories and thoughts on how, maybe, one day we can all co-exist as humans. Not by the color of our skin or how much money we live on, or our sexual orientation and so forth.
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I will not weigh in on most of the questions posed here as I am on my own mission of self discovery related to many of the issues listed.
I will, however, parrot something that was told to me once. For context, I am a firm believer in "family first". So, no one in my family can ever "do me any wrong", and I will do anything for them. I will overlook wrongdoings that have been done to me and still support, love, and accept them. But for some odd reason, my "accepting" attitude stops there.
Forgive the misspelling if it is the case, but I believe the term to be "Oikeiosis" (or something like that). If I can find a way to accept all of humanity as part of my family then my tolerance level sky rockets to Nirvana type levels. Sure, I will be taken advantage of, but like I said, I won't be offended by it and will be content with the way I run my life. The only downfall, imo, is that it only changes me, and not the rest of humanity, but small steps, eh? Lead by example and whatnot?
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I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ :(
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.
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I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ :(
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.
Well thanks, Redeagl, and don't feel sorry. I dont, it's shaped me into the human I am. I call my sister's black all the time, and along with all my black friends. I can see where it can be construed as racist, where I live it's normal and no offense is taken. See, that's where I think a lot of the problem therein lies. What one cultural funds acceptable, one does not. Hence, the intent is lost and confusion, anger and hateful responses ensue. I'm glad you decided to post, at least it's important to someone else too.
Yea, I don't feel that color matter one iota, as we can all trace our genes back to the same origin, basically. We are just human and that's it. These problems arise from the amount of pigmentation in ones skin. HOW F'N SILLY IS THAT?
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I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ :(
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.
Well thanks, Redeagl, and don't feel sorry. I dont, it's shaped me into the human I am. I call my sister's black all the time, and along with all my black friends. I can see where it can be construed as racist, where I live it's normal and no offense is taken. See, that's where I think a lot of the problem therein lies. What one cultural funds acceptable, one does not. Hence, the intent is lost and confusion, anger and hateful responses ensue. I'm glad you decided to post, at least it's important to someone else too.
Yea, I don't feel that color matter one iota, as we can all trace our genes back to the same origin, basically. We are just human and that's it. These problems arise from the amount of pigmentation in ones skin. HOW F'N SILLY IS THAT?
As long as your sister and friends accepts the joking then there is no harm in it.Skin color is so stupid that in fact I am still stunned that people actually give it such importance.Also again black or white isn't a race it is just a color for a race which is humanity so the word "racism" is really misplaced from my point of view.
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As long as your sister and friends accepts the joking then there is no harm in it.Skin color is so stupid that in fact I am still stunned that people actually give it such importance.Also again black or white isn't a race it is just a color for a race which is humanity so the word "racism" is really misplaced from my point of view.
Well, here in America alot, not all, African -Americans take a certain type of pride in being called black. I think it defines them in a way, their struggle in this country. So, not so much a joke, just what we call one another. Im the white-boy in my family and to a majority of my friends (black). It all goes back to different cultural and the meaning attached to those words. I understand you completely Redeagl, it's senseless and pointless way to describe someone.
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As long as your sister and friends accepts the joking then there is no harm in it.Skin color is so stupid that in fact I am still stunned that people actually give it such importance.Also again black or white isn't a race it is just a color for a race which is humanity so the word "racism" is really misplaced from my point of view.
Well, here in America alot, not all, African -Americans take a certain type of pride in being called black. I think it defines them in a way, their struggle in this country. So, not so much a joke, just what we call one another. Im the white-boy in my family and to a majority of my friends (black). It all goes back to different cultural and the meaning attached to those words. I understand you completely Redeagl, it's senseless and pointless way to describe someone.
What really makes me awestruck is that there are actual people in America who think " I am white then I am completely awesome. You are black then you are a piece of shit." which in turn made black people hate the term. Neither are right. Why should you hate the shape you were born with? but the other ideology however is far beyond my understanding so I can't comment on it.Black or white I don't really care and neither should anyone.Like you said we are all from the same race.
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As long as your sister and friends accepts the joking then there is no harm in it.Skin color is so stupid that in fact I am still stunned that people actually give it such importance.Also again black or white isn't a race it is just a color for a race which is humanity so the word "racism" is really misplaced from my point of view.
Well, here in America alot, not all, African -Americans take a certain type of pride in being called black. I think it defines them in a way, their struggle in this country. So, not so much a joke, just what we call one another. Im the white-boy in my family and to a majority of my friends (black). It all goes back to different cultural and the meaning attached to those words. I understand you completely Redeagl, it's senseless and pointless way to describe someone.
What really makes me awestruck is that there are actual people in America who think " I am white then I am completely awesome. You are black then you are a piece of shit." which in turn made black people hate the term. Neither are right. Why should you hate the shape you were born with? but the other ideology however is far beyond my understanding so I can't comment on it.Black or white I don't really care and neither should anyone.Like you said we are all from the same race.
That is America in a nutshell. A country divided by color. I've heard whites say to blacks, "you just need to get over slavery, you were never a slave.". I mean, come on, it is a hardly something to just get over. Though, I do feel at some point we all need to move from the subject of race and work together. Now, don't get me wrong, its a small minority, both black and white that keep this going on and on. It is certainly not the majority of Americans that even see it as a issue and have put it behind them. Very complicated situation Redeagl, and I think you would have to live here and experience to really see how it effects our country. Its hard to even explain to people outside of the U.S.. Is like to put into simple terms, I don't think that can be done.
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Well, here in America alot, not all, African -Americans take a certain type of pride in being called black. I think it defines them in a way, their struggle in this country. So, not so much a joke, just what we call one another. Im the white-boy in my family and to a majority of my friends (black). It all goes back to different cultural and the meaning attached to those words. I understand you completely Redeagl, it's senseless and pointless way to describe someone.
The issue, in part, is how we (and I say we, as in human beings) construct our "identity" whether it's via nationalist, cultural, or religious grounds. Sure, here in the United States we most certainly identify as "Americans" but in large this means very little, only as it is a label to designate the us-ness of us and the other-ness of other countries. As a element of cohesiveness, it is meaningless. That goes right to a major part of all of this, is the way in which we construct in-groups and out-groups. It also speaks directly to the cultural idea that there is only one possible right way to live.
When you put such things together, you find what we have, people banding together to praise their sameness and vilify anyone different. It literally does not matter if the perceived differences even exist, let alone are actually meaningful. Indeed, this is a part of what Diurnal speaks to, the way family is a natural in-group, so there naturally arises a sort of us-against-the-world mentality. Taken at face-value, this is perfectly fine, even a good thing. The problem, like nearly everything in life, is that it is a matter of degrees.
Is it good to celebrate shared cultural values? Of course. Is it good to help your family? Sure. But the issue comes when it is taken to it's worst possible extreme, that is, to celebrate your cultural values at the expense of others. That goes into the idea that just because you disagree with something, means no one should even be allowed to do it/say it/be it. That is the real issue. No one would care if you didn't like whatever, didn't believe in whatever, choose not to do whatever. It's when you say, I don't like X so no one should be able to do X.
To reel myself in a bit, because I could droll on and on, but there is even more to it. It doesn't just come down to cultural values, or perceived identity either. The idea that one can psychologically elevate one's self by denigrating others is pretty rampant. Identity forged from the negative, the "not me" and "not us" that we believe segregates us. Why do this? Because there is a perceived value in segregation, right back to the in-groups versus the out-groups. It's "us" versus "them" in competition for whatever we imagine we are. We imagine we have to "protect our own" and extend this out to those we see as "same" and, of course, at the expense of those we imagine are "different."
I'm babbling at this point though.
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Great points, H. As alwaays, my question is how do break the chains of this mindset of us vs them?
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Great points, H. As alwaays, my question is how do break the chains of this mindset of us vs them?
MSJ, sorry, I didn't see this thread before. I have just posted a reply in the 'What are you watching' thread, was busy these past few days. I'll read this thread and respond as well. Regards.
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Great points, H. As alwaays, my question is how do break the chains of this mindset of us vs them?
MSJ, sorry, I didn't see this thread before. I have just posted a reply in the 'What are you watching' thread, was busy these past few days. I'll read this thread and respond as well. Regards.
Glad you seen the thread, as I am very interested in your thoughts. To go back to what you said in the other thread, It hit the nail on the the head as to why I liked Wilshire's statement. I see people that get offended over perceived slights at them or what they feel to be a negative comment. Now, why I said the internet is the most offended space on Earth, is because they care not, or do not want to know the reason behind you said that offended them. There is no effort to understand where one is coming from. Its just "that MSJ made a racist, sexist remark and therefore he is a bigot and that's how I will feel about him" (just an example, though I've had it happen).
I have a problem of saying what comes to mind, I'm not very "politically correct" you might say. So some things I've said on the internet have came off way, way wrong before. But, there was never an attempt to understand why I made the comment or where I might be coming from. And, trust me, there are those on the internet that don't care, they just like to place a label on you and move on. That's where my comment comes from, "The internet is the most offended space in the World.".
I really have just started thinking on all these issues here recently, since this election has split our country in two. Trump supporters are automatically labeled as redneck, racist SON's and Hillary supporters, freeloaders and gun grabbers. No one asks the questions as to why they want to vote one way or another. Another thing that has got me interested in these issues further, is the racial tension in America at the moment. In certain areas of the US, it's at a boiling point. I have life long friends (African-american) that do not want to hear any opinions on what they perceive as slights or what they think is ok?
Take the issue of NFL players kneeling during the National Anthem. One of my friends posted a meme of Kaepernick kneeling and was praising it. I asked, "So you even know who he is disrespecting and what our NA stands for?". He response that the NA was hundreds of years old and held no true meaning. He was glad he was doing it as a way to protest. I responded by saying, "No, the National Anthem is our way of paying respect to the fallen soldiers of countless wars, who gave the ultimate sacrifice to defend your rights and your freedom. The only people being disrespected is the thousands of fallen soldiers. Mind you, that includes African-American soldiers who fought and died in those same wars.". His response? "Lol". America is a nation divided right now my friends, and I feel it is close to reaching boiling point.
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So, let me say something about my background now. I'm Polish and white, like most of people in Poland. But I am also a woman, a socialist liberal and a nerd - which at the moment means that I am outside the official discourse of our government and state-owned media. Since our last election (a year ago) everything is becoming more nationalistic, isolationistic and xenophobic. And, oh, they wanted to ban abortion in any circumstances (currently it's allowed only if pregnancy is dangerous for the woman's life, the embryo is unable to live or heavily disfigured or if the pregnancy is the result of crime). Anyway, this discourse promotes the skinhead, neo-nazi types as modern Polish patriots. The result is racist attacks, mostly on Arabs (you know, the whole islamic threat and all that), but recently a Polish professor of history was beaten on the tram because he was talking in German to his colleague, a German professor of history.
Our Independence Day is coming. 11 November, the Armistice Day. And you know what - we warn our non-Polish friends to better stay at homes on that day (fortunately, it's a holiday, so they do not have to go to work or school) or they might get beaten by our brave young Polish patriots.
And you know what? I love my country and I hate it at the same time. I don't want to leave, but I'm so afraid it will get worse and worse. I've survived the communist regime, early 21st century seemed to be all bright and promising, membership in NATO and EU, open borders, open minds... and now it's all falling apart.
So yes, I am offended. I am offended by racist jokes and comments, I am offended by anti-gay rhetorics, I am offended by our women-hating government. I never thought I would go marching in the streets, and yet during this year I did it several times. It won't change anything but at least I can see that I'm not alone.
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I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ :(
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.
You do realize, - if you have taken the time to read my posts -, that I was not offended in the first place, right? Apparently just using the word 'racist' was enough for people to think I was, funny how that works, I mean: who is actually feeling offended? I do not feel the need to reiterate my points again. See the other thread.
However, just because you feel that skin color doesn't matter, does not mean that there is no racism in society at large. And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?
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I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ :(
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.
You do realize, - if you have taken the time to read my posts -, that I was not offended in the first place, right? Apparently just using the word 'racist' was enough for people to think I was, funny how that works, I mean: who is actually feeling offended? I do not feel the need to reiterate my points again. See the other thread.
However, just because you feel that skin color doesn't matter, does not mean that there is no racism in society at large. And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?
First of all I think that you should know something about me. I am not American, I am Egyptian.Second I don't think you have read my post, "Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( NO I DON'T MEAN YOU HIRO) " you probably have missed this last bit :)
Last of all I know about the American cops shooting black people thing, when that happens you protest against cops shooting people. Aren't black people normal people or what?? you see I am a Muslim too and right now Muslims ( I know that Islam is not a race but I don't know a better word) are getting racism from most people in Europe and America alike. Do you see me screaming RACISM every single second? If so then Bakker's books are racist. The Fanim never won a battle in the Prince Of Nothing trilogy. Self wallowing for no reason is stupid.That's it for now.
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Great points, H. As alwaays, my question is how do break the chains of this mindset of us vs them?
MSJ, sorry, I didn't see this thread before. I have just posted a reply in the 'What are you watching' thread, was busy these past few days. I'll read this thread and respond as well. Regards.
Glad you seen the thread, as I am very interested in your thoughts. To go back to what you said in the other thread, It hit the nail on the the head as to why I liked Wilshire's statement. I see people that get offended over perceived slights at them or what they feel to be a negative comment.
MSJ, thanks for sharing your experience and background. That is certainly courageous, and I would venture to guess that your experience would lead you to be more able to empathize with people experiencing racism.
Still, I'm puzzled why you felt the need to devote a whole thread to something that grew out of a misunderstanding. If it contributes to a more thorough discussion, why not.
And while I made a case for communicating intent, another case can be made to be suspicious of intent as well. Intent is not neutral by any means, and even if we feel or are convinced that our intent is right, that does not make it so. There are certainly instances where no matter the intent, the outcome is correctly experienced as offensive. To then claim, my intent was maybe not clear to you, is another way of saying - I don't care so much about you as another person.
The internet facilitates misunderstandings and offenses, as it, - as we concluded in the other thread- , 1) lacks face to face or even body to body communication, so lacks the full communicational context, and, 2) when people feel anonymous, or unobserved, they apparently feel less restraint to unleash their inner demon.
To me, this whole discussion of being offended, of political correct / incorrect speech, is all related to a fundamental misunderstanding of freedom of speech in particular, and to the currently most misunderstood or abused word in this and many other languages: freedom.
So I suggest another candidate for your 'statement of statements': "Know Thyself."
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I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ :(
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.
You do realize, - if you have taken the time to read my posts -, that I was not offended in the first place, right? Apparently just using the word 'racist' was enough for people to think I was, funny how that works, I mean: who is actually feeling offended? I do not feel the need to reiterate my points again. See the other thread.
However, just because you feel that skin color doesn't matter, does not mean that there is no racism in society at large. And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?
First of all I think that you should know something about me. I am not American, I am Egyptian.Second I don't think you have read my post, "Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( NO I DON'T MEAN YOU HIRO) " you probably have missed this last bit :)
Last I know about the American cops shooting black people thing, when that happens you protest against cops shooting people. Aren't black people normal people or what?? you see I am a Muslim too and right now Muslims ( I know that Islam is not a race but I don't know a better word) are getting racism from most people in Europe and America alike. Do you see me screaming RACISM every single second? If so then Bakker's books are racist. The Fanim never won a battle in the Prince Of Nothing trilogy. Self wallowing for no reason is stupid.That's it for now.
Well, I'm not American either, does that matter? I did read your post and responded specifically to your reference to me. To reiterate I was not offended in the first place, so to mention my name as possibly being offended was unnecessary and rather silly. It continued to extend a misunderstanding, hence my comment.
As I understand the Black Lives Matter movement, it's not merely about people getting shot by the police. It's about a lot of black people getting shot - without any provocation that would warrant such an extreme measure. There is also a painful amount of examples of white people not getting shot in similar circumstances or even in circumstances that - according to US Law - would justify extreme measures.
See for further explanation: http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/21/12993866/terence-crutcher-unarmed-killed-black-lives-matter (http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/21/12993866/terence-crutcher-unarmed-killed-black-lives-matter)
Self wallowing has nothing to do with it, anyhow, it is more useful and valuable to get oneself informed.
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So, let me say something about my background now. I'm Polish and white, like most of people in Poland. But I am also a woman, a socialist liberal and a nerd - which at the moment means that I am outside the official discourse of our government and state-owned media. Since our last election (a year ago) everything is becoming more nationalistic, isolationistic and xenophobic. And, oh, they wanted to ban abortion in any circumstances (currently it's allowed only if pregnancy is dangerous for the woman's life, the embryo is unable to live or heavily disfigured or if the pregnancy is the result of crime). Anyway, this discourse promotes the skinhead, neo-nazi types as modern Polish patriots. The result is racist attacks, mostly on Arabs (you know, the whole islamic threat and all that), but recently a Polish professor of history was beaten on the tram because he was talking in German to his colleague, a German professor of history.
Our Independence Day is coming. 11 November, the Armistice Day. And you know what - we warn our non-Polish friends to better stay at homes on that day (fortunately, it's a holiday, so they do not have to go to work or school) or they might get beaten by our brave young Polish patriots.
And you know what? I love my country and I hate it at the same time. I don't want to leave, but I'm so afraid it will get worse and worse. I've survived the communist regime, early 21st century seemed to be all bright and promising, membership in NATO and EU, open borders, open minds... and now it's all falling apart.
So yes, I am offended. I am offended by racist jokes and comments, I am offended by anti-gay rhetorics, I am offended by our women-hating government. I never thought I would go marching in the streets, and yet during this year I did it several times. It won't change anything but at least I can see that I'm not alone.
Thanks for sharing Alia, and good for you to stand up!
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I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ :(
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.
You do realize, - if you have taken the time to read my posts -, that I was not offended in the first place, right? Apparently just using the word 'racist' was enough for people to think I was, funny how that works, I mean: who is actually feeling offended? I do not feel the need to reiterate my points again. See the other thread.
However, just because you feel that skin color doesn't matter, does not mean that there is no racism in society at large. And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?
First of all I think that you should know something about me. I am not American, I am Egyptian.Second I don't think you have read my post, "Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( NO I DON'T MEAN YOU HIRO) " you probably have missed this last bit :)
Last I know about the American cops shooting black people thing, when that happens you protest against cops shooting people. Aren't black people normal people or what?? you see I am a Muslim too and right now Muslims ( I know that Islam is not a race but I don't know a better word) are getting racism from most people in Europe and America alike. Do you see me screaming RACISM every single second? If so then Bakker's books are racist. The Fanim never won a battle in the Prince Of Nothing trilogy. Self wallowing for no reason is stupid.That's it for now.
Well, I'm not American either, does that matter? I did read your post and responded specifically to your reference to me. To reiterate I was not offended in the first place, so to mention my name as possibly being offended was unnecessary and rather silly. It continued to extend a misunderstanding, hence my comment.
As I understand the Black Lives Matter movement, it's not merely about people getting shot by the police. It's about a lot of black people getting shot - without any provocation that would warrant such an extreme measure. There is also a painful amount of examples of white people not getting shot in similar circumstances or even in circumstances that - according to US Law - would justify extreme measures.
See for further explanation: http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/21/12993866/terence-crutcher-unarmed-killed-black-lives-matter (http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/21/12993866/terence-crutcher-unarmed-killed-black-lives-matter)
Self wallowing has nothing to do with it, anyhow, it is more useful and valuable to get oneself informed.
Wow just wow. I mentioned you to avoid a misunderstanding. Sorry if I have offended you Hiro, have a good day.
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And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?
There's actually some fascinating research on this subject, though unfortunately you'd have to filter out political bias/rhetoric, as most of the research on the subject is done by the opposition party.
In general, I find data the best lense to look through these types of subjects, when such data exists. Racism, sexism, etc-isms. There's a lot out there, especially in the US, just be careful what conclusions you draw from whichever bias its being filtered through before you get to it. Without the citation of relevant and complete statistical evidence, these conversations may as well be impossible to have, as either side just talks past the other until both are too upset to continue (speaking generally, not specifically this post)
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And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?
There's actually some fascinating research on this subject, though unfortunately you'd have to filter out political bias/rhetoric, as most of the research on the subject is done by the opposition party.
In general, I find data the best lense to look through these types of subjects, when such data exists. Racism, sexism, etc-isms. There's a lot out there, especially in the US, just be careful what conclusions you draw from whichever bias its being filtered through before you get to it. Without the citation of relevant and complete statistical evidence, these conversations may as well be impossible to have, as either side just talks past the other until both are too upset to continue (speaking generally, not specifically this post)
This seems fair enough:
http://www.vox.com/a/police-shootings-deaths (http://www.vox.com/a/police-shootings-deaths)
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That's a good link. What conclusions do you draw from that information?
Here's what I see when I look at that link:
What's left out?
Socioeconomics - Most high crime areas tend to be racially skewed towards non-white population centers (note the linked citation is for a different set of years, and the conclusions might not really support what the author of this article said).
Race of police officers - May or may not be relevant, but is it still 'racism' if the police that are doing the shootings are all black? Sure, but its not the same kind of racism if all the police are white. To me, I think that kind of information (which isn't available), would change the conversation a lot.
What kinds of other conclusions could be drawn?
The take away could be that the real problem is sexism. Men get killed proportionally more than women, by an enormous margin.
Same with age. Huge margins.
Where are those protests? Men's Lives Matters. Children's lives matter. Non existent, why might that be?
Suggesting, by looking at those numbers, that the only problem (or biggest problem) is racism, requires cherry picking data. If anything, its very clearly unclear, at least to me.
How good is this information?
Only about 50% of the people who are killed are of a known race (according to this article).
50%? How can you draw any statistically valid conclusions with a margin of error of 50%?
For me, in the end, in the last two years this article indicates that some 2000 people have been killed by police. In the same time period, 5 million people have died in the US. Nearly 100,000 have died from suicide over the same two year period. (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm - extrapolate for 2 years). The idea that every time someone is killed by a police officer it needs to be national news is totally ludicrous to me. At best, its local or state news. Expanding that to weeks long national news seems odd to me.
It seems what we're talking about are statistical anomalies based on incomplete data sets that don't properly cross reference other relevant data sets.
I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist, nor that it isn't a problem. I'm saying that one must be careful what conclusions are drawn - and closely examine the why behind those conclusions. If you're stance is that these numbers portray an obvious racism problem, why? It could be that they do, but I'm interested in why.
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Great points, H. As alwaays, my question is how do break the chains of this mindset of us vs them?
Well, a good first step in dealing with any problem is often to simply acknowledge that there is problem. Once you can recognize that there is an issue at hand, you look to identify exactly what it is. Only then can you start to fix anything.
Look at how many artificial divides we place on on ourselves and others on a daily basis. White versus Black, Christian versus Muslim, Men versus Women, Conservative versus Liberal, Northern versus Southern, and so on. What do any of these really matter in the grand scheme of things? Nothing, except they are our signifiers to what we construe as our identity. They are the labels we place on ourselves in order to differentiate ourselves, because what is most me about me is that I am not anyone else. At least, that's the idea, or part of it. It is often a major fear people have, the "loss of identity" suffered when, for example, people move to a different country/state/whatever. It is in our nature to attempt to differentiate ourselves, because they idea that there is a self is pretty key to the narrative we construct of our lives. We fear the loss of that identity to be the loss of our "selves" and therefor the narrative that we constructed of ourselves will become false.
Of course, this is all nonsense. It only exists because we decide it should. One can start by not buying into divisional nonsense. We no longer live in a world where we need to be so adversarial. A great place to start is to admit that humans are naturally inclined to be biased, but you need to take it a step farther and not succumb to that bias. No one claims everyone must like everyone else, but there is a minimum civility that should be in order. Treating other human beings like human beings even if you don't agree with them is simply common sense. And yet, it is something that seems impossible for people to do consistently.
Why? Because everything we do culturally speaks to division. The lip service of "all men are created equal" is belied daily, hourly, moment by moment by nearly everything we see or do. So, what is more pervasive on a psychological level, that which we know philosophically, or that which we live every moment of every day?
A great start is to question authority. And the first authority you should always be questioning is yourself. You should certainly be questioning the shit that comes from anyone else's brain, so, why shouldn't you be questioning the shit that comes from your own? Is your brain really that different than everyone else's? Certainly seems some people think so. The fact is we're all the same crap thrown together in a different fashion.
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That's a good link. What conclusions do you draw from that information?
Here's what I see when I look at that link:
What's left out?
Socioeconomics - Most high crime areas tend to be racially skewed towards non-white population centers.
Race of police officers - May or may not be relevant, but is it still 'racism' if the police that are doing the shootings are all black? Sure, but its not the same kind of racism if all the police are white. To me, I think that kind of information (which isn't available), would change the conversation a lot.
What kinds of other conclusions could be drawn?
The take away could be that the real problem is sexism. Men get killed proportionally more than women, by an enormous margin.
Same with age. Huge margins.
Where are those protests? Men's Lives Matters. Children's lives matter. Non existent, why might that be?
Suggesting, by looking at those numbers, that the only problem (or biggest problem) is racism, requires cherry picking data. If anything, its very clearly unclear, at least to me.
How good is this information?
Only about 50% of the people who are killed are of a known race (according to this article).
50%? How can you draw any statistically valid conclusions with a margin of error of 50%?
For me, in the end, in the last two years this article indicates that some 2000 people have been killed by police. In the same time period, 5 million people have died in the US. Nearly 100,000 have died from suicide over the same two year period. (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm - extrapolate for 2 years). The idea that every time someone is killed by a police officer it needs to be national news is totally ludicrous to me. At best, its local or state news. Expanding that to weeks long national news seems odd to me.
At best, it seems what we're talking about are statistical anomalies based on incomplete data sets that don't properly cross reference other relevant data sets.
I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist, nor that it isn't a problem. I'm saying that one must be careful what conclusions are drawn - and closely examine the why behind those conclusions. If you're stance is that these numbers portray an obvious racism problem, why? It could be that they do, but I'm interested in why.
Thanks Wilshire for taking the time to look at that link.
The reason I put up that link was that it seemed fairly evenhanded. Although thinking about it a bit longer;
The main problem with that link, amongst a few you cite, is that it does not specify the reason people get killed by police. So if you want to base yourself on data, - in this case -, it needs way more specific information. The link I posted earlier provides more context:
http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/21/12993866/terence-crutcher-unarmed-killed-black-lives-matter (http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/21/12993866/terence-crutcher-unarmed-killed-black-lives-matter)
In a similar way, I don't see the value of comparing the amount of people getting killed by police with people committing suicide, or even the total amount of people dying in a year. If data ignores reason -- intent -- context, than the data serves to explain what exactly?
There should be a correlation between data and actual lived experience. Even one person getting killed in this manner by the police is a horrible tragedy, I don't mind Black Lives Matter bringing this to attention. And if it helps reflection on police violence in general, all the better.
Also, Black Lives Matter exists in a social and historical context, it's not just an anomalous blip.
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I bring up total deaths because to me this issue is statistically insignificant, and also I've about reached my limit of investing time into this particular conversation because of that. Part of that is likely because I'm so far removed from the situation, which is pretty shitty of me, but there it is.
As for the Black Lives Matter movement itself ... I'm not sure how you go about solving racism and violence with more racism and violence.
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Maybe I should add that I've enjoyed the discussion we've had, Hiro, and I think generally this thread did a good job at remaining reasonably inoffensive given the nature of the discussion.
As always, if anyone finds a particular post offensive, feel free to report it and one of the mods will take a look - and try to have a conversation with the parties involved.
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Well, first off, I feel there are obviously many justifiable reasons for people to be offended. What I meant when saying Wilshire's statement was on point, is on the internet I've encountered many angry people looking to be offended. Waiting on you say the wrong thing and twist into what they want it to be. Should I be more "self-aware"? Probably. But, it all goes back to intent and people's willingness to want to learn your intent. This thread really has nothing to do with you in particular Hiro. As I said before, it's something that weighs on my mind and would like to find solutions to the divide not only in my country (USA), but all across the globe.
Alia, thank you for sharing your story. And, again, you have obvious reasons to be offended and just reasons. I also wish you and your fellow countrymen can move pass this and have a peaceful place to live.
Now, Black Lives Matter. Just Google some BLM videos and you will see how some parts of this movements works. Harrassment is their favorite tactic, especially the younger ones in the movement. And, there are other parts of BLM that are doing some really great things. Like having picnics and gatherings with the local law enforcement to try and build some bonds. As far as more blacks being shot and so forth, more whites are shot by police than any other race. The majority of black men shot that spurred this movement, were known criminals or were in the midst of committing a crime. But, when you're shot by a police officer, there is usually one factor that leads to that happening. Non-compliance. If you do not listen and obey an officer and said officer feels threatened, there's a good chance you're getting shot. Its simple folks. We have rules and if you follow those rules, you don't get shot. Is there a problem with LE and young black males? Of course. And hopefully we can find a way to put a end to it. I seen a interview with a AA police officer and he said that when he is off duty, he is afraid of other cops. He takes his badge with him everywhere. Now, if that Does not show that there is a problem, I don't know what does.
I've always had a problem with something I was once told on the internet. If someone feels something you say is offensive, then regardless of your intent, it is offensive. I just don't get that. Does everyone have the right to coddled and say that something entirely not meant to offend, is indeed offensive? Where is the line drawn, or apparently there is no line? And, if something does offend somebody regardles of my intent, it doesn't mean that I don't care about them or their feelings. I just want to I know why it is so offensive and maybe I can learn from that.
Sorry, maybe I should of never started this thread. It was never aimed at anyone in particular. I've thought about starting it for a while now and Wilshire statement, spurred me to do so (sorry, Wilshire). It seems in the end, instead of talking about solutions and what can be done to avoid offending one another and getting along-i will have just offended someone.
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Maybe I should add that I've enjoyed the discussion we've had, Hiro, and I think generally this thread did a good job at remaining reasonably inoffensive given the nature of the discussion.
As always, if anyone finds a particular post offensive, feel free to report it and one of the mods will take a look - and try to have a conversation with the parties involved.
+1
Still, I'm puzzled why you felt the need to devote a whole thread to something that grew out of a misunderstanding. If it contributes to a more thorough discussion, why not.
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To me, this whole discussion of being offended, of political correct / incorrect speech, is all related to a fundamental misunderstanding of freedom of speech in particular, and to the currently most misunderstood or abused word in this and many other languages: freedom.
So I suggest another candidate for your 'statement of statements': "Know Thyself."
Tangents are the often the best threads here. Something interesting happens with any given discussion on a Bakker forum, despite "ignorance being blind" as you mentioned, but especially those discussions that tend to engage difficult topics.
Well, first off, I feel there are obviously many justifiable reasons for people to be offended. What I meant when saying Wilshire's statement was on point, is on the internet I've encountered many angry people looking to be offended. Waiting on you say the wrong thing and twist into what they want it to be. Should I be more "self-aware"? Probably. But, it all goes back to intent and people's willingness to want to learn your intent. This thread really has nothing to do with you in particular Hiro. As I said before, it's something that weighs on my mind and would like to find solutions to the divide not only in my country (USA), but all across the globe.
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Sorry, maybe I should of never started this thread. It was never aimed at anyone in particular. I've thought about starting it for a while now and Wilshire statement, spurred me to do so (sorry, Wilshire). It seems in the end, instead of talking about solutions and what can be done to avoid offending one another and getting along-i will have just offended someone.
Yeah, no, don't apologize for starting the thread. You're all acting Canadian in here. Stop saying sorry to each other, as everyone is - as usual, around here, in my opinion - doing a damn good job of being level-headed.
I'd love to respond to a bunch of little points across the posts but I just don't have the time to spare. Bothersome.
But... in the interest of making a impact while the thread is active, now that I've read it all:
- People will get offended about whatever they'll get offended about, over which myself as offending party, have zero control. I myself get super offended by things that offend me (often disturbing those who are used to my easygoing disposition). I take weird stands in everyday conversation.
Obviously, we can take care in how we conduct ourselves but, clearly, offense gets sticky even when we're all trying to carefully spell things out (which, of course, references the aforementioned messiness of language and intent).
- Whatever attribution, in the contexts mentioned throughout these threads, that people make reflects their understanding of personal agency and how they feel they can express their agency in the world without conflict. That's somewhat longwinded to parse. In the case of the pyramids people will - frustratingly - suggest that humans couldn't have built the pyramids outsourcing our human agency to beings greater than us. In the case of racism people will suggest that they lack their own agency and blame their lack of agency on beings they deem lesser than them.
I don't have an opinion on the matter so much as I think that the situation is far more insidious than the adjectives we use or the data gathered and presented.
- People choose how they act. Granted this one becomes super-complicated in Bakker context, but his is the classic, be-all, end-all cop-out. I'm much more Machiavellian in my estimation of my agency and exercise of it (which is another discussion entirely). When people decide that they don't have agency, all bets are off regarding logical and consistent behavior, which is absurdly ironic because it seems only when people decide that they lack individual agency, that really vicious and callous behaviors emerge.
It comes down to some kind of personal responsibility.
And as I can't ramble anymore, I will abruptly cease my needless brainstorming ;).
Debts and work suck.
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I think themevwnts of the past few days here in America have added so much weight to my thoughts in my OP. The levels of hypocrisy right now are staggering. The left who preach equality, the end of raciam, sexism, xenophobia, misogyny and bigotry, are laughably accusing a bloc of voters (rural white males) solely on the candidate they chose to vote for. It sickening, and shows how when a group that preaches tolerance has reverted to name calling on false assumptions because, guess what? They've been OFFENDED!
First off, I know many, many Trump supporters who are very great human beings that are anything but the labels that are being placed on them. And its wrong, wrong on so many levels. When Obama was elected in 08' and 12', how many riots did we see? Its shows the level of ignorance, hate and divide in this country.
I wasn't a Trump supporter, yet when he became president-elect, it is the duty of every American to put aside their differences and unite towards a better America. Since being elected I've gained this mindset, and as my dad always preached investigate for yourself. (My dad hates Trump and what I'm getting ready to tell you, we had thus same conversation 2 hours ago, he is not the optimist that I seem to be. First, let me tell you my political views, its easy, I'm as middle of the road as they come. I can see bothe sides wants and reasons and believe there is compromise available on nearly every major issue in our country.
What I'm getting ready to tel you is my optimistic opinion, but has come about by reading up on Trump, taking into account that not only did he defeat the Democrats, he also fought the Republican party up until the last few weeks basically. He is the first ever Republican nominee to embrace the LGBT+ community. Last week in Denver he held a LGBT flag at a rally in Denver and proclaimed he would not let their newfound rights be taken away. I pure thumbing of the nose to the Republican party. Most don't know that Trump is a life long Democrat and still holds a lot of those values. The hardcore rhetoric during his campaign is what I believe he is best at, being a business man and selling and idea or product. This being to get rural white America to turn out and vote as they never had before. What I see happening, and my father says I'm extremely optimistic to think this, is that he will return to a more center position when entering office. He's surprises us at every turn and I believe he will again. I do not expect him to toe the Republican party line, at all.
This I can guarantee. There will be no wall built, no mass deportations, will not touch Roe vs Wade. His Gettysburg Address that laid out his 100 day plan, I believe is another sales pitch to bring out the votes he needed. Will he try to implement some of it, of course. And, the more extreme proposals will never go through and Paul Ryan has made this clear. Some of it I like, a lot of it I don't, but I have faith if he does try and pass e more extreme measures that a level headed senate will bock those. I have faith in the progress made and most Americans not wanting to backwards instead of forward.
In final, I'd just like every American to remember, regardless of who you voted for, Mr. Trump will be our president for at least for years and its your duty as an American to put aside differences and work together and support not only the president, but the government as whole to better our nation. Many will laugh and degrade me for my optimism, but in my mind, better to hope for that than continue down the path of hate and division.
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People need to stop wearing their bias as a badge of honor and imagining that the bias of anyone who disagrees with them is a Mark of Cain. It's all bias, there is no "good" or "bad" biases. In a world where most of us have nearly the balance of human knowledge accessible from our fingertips, we use it to confirm ignorance rather than expunge it.
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People need to stop wearing their bias as a badge of honor and imagining that the bias of anyone who disagrees with them is a Mark of Cain. It's all bias, there is no "good" or "bad" biases. In a world where most of us have nearly the balance of human knowledge accessible from our fingertips, we use it to confirm ignorance rather than expunge it.
+1
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Great post, H. I agree 100%. I also read where a guy was saying that the internet was thought of as a way to UNITE everyone. Instead, it has created bubbles or rather safe spaces. Where people only follow and listen to their beliefs. Instead of opening one's mind up, it has basically allowed them to have others that share their biases, confirm them.
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Great post, H. I agree 100%. I also read where a guy was saying that the internet was thought of as a way to UNITE everyone. Instead, it has created bubbles or rather safe spaces. Where people only follow and listen to their beliefs. Instead of opening one's mind up, it has basically allowed them to have others that share their biases, confirm them.
Yeah, once upon a time, since everyone was more isolated, shitty ideas could only go so far.
Now, people get the option of "build your own bubble" and the echo chambers that come with it are loud, so loud that nothing else gets in. You get all the confirmation bias, disinformation, misinformation and rabble-rousing you want, all at the low, low cost of nothing, since humanity is a object, not a quality, they think.
Every half-wit now has a soap box for their half-brained, ill conceived ideas. And the rest of the half-wits flock to it, because it confirms their inflated opinion of themselves, "ha, I knew I was right!"
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Great post, H. I agree 100%. I also read where a guy was saying that the internet was thought of as a way to UNITE everyone. Instead, it has created bubbles or rather safe spaces. Where people only follow and listen to their beliefs. Instead of opening one's mind up, it has basically allowed them to have others that share their biases, confirm them.
Yeah, once upon a time, since everyone was more isolated, shitty ideas could only go so far.
Now, people get the option of "build your own bubble" and the echo chambers that come with it are loud, so loud that nothing else gets in. You get all the confirmation bias, disinformation, misinformation and rabble-rousing you want, all at the low, low cost of nothing, since humanity is a object, not a quality, they think.
Every half-wit now has a soap box for their half-brained, ill conceived ideas. And the rest of the half-wits flock to it, because it confirms their inflated opinion of themselves, "ha, I knew I was right!"
+1
Damn H, you're killing it today! I vote for H 2020!
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https://youtu.be/tyaEQEmt5ls
Just thought I would leave this here for everyone.
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It certainly is interesting, but the initial interviews give you a really disheartening view of how clannish people can be, based upon what is essentially nothing.
When asked by people what my heritage is, I tell them Italian, because both my parents were, my father's parents coming to the US direct from Italy (Calabria and Naples) and my mother's grandparents (Sicily and Naples). I know enough of the history of Southern Italy to know that this probably means I am some part Greek, Southern Italian Norman,Spanish, North African, possibly French and whatever might be construed as Italian. And that is to say that least. The ignorance to think that there is anything such a "purity" is pretty gross, honestly.
That's not even the nonsensical idea of nationalism as somehow making you superior to anyone or any thing. It's ignorance, plain and simple. But we already know how much that appeal to people. That narrative about identity there again...
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It certainly is interesting, but the initial interviews give you a really disheartening view of how clannish people can be, based upon what is essentially nothing.
When asked by people what my heritage is, I tell them Italian, because both my parents were, my father's parents coming to the US direct from Italy (Calabria and Naples) and my mother's grandparents (Sicily and Naples). I know enough of the history of Southern Italy to know that this probably means I am some part Greek, Southern Italian Norman,Spanish, North African, possibly French and whatever might be construed as Italian. And that is to say that least. The ignorance to think that there is anything such a "purity" is pretty gross, honestly.
That's not even the nonsensical idea of nationalism as somehow making you superior to anyone or any thing. It's ignorance, plain and simple. But we already know how much that appeal to people. That narrative about identity there again...
Lol. When asked what my heritage is I always reply, Heinz 57, ain't got a clue what's in me.
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Lol. When asked what my heritage is I always reply, Heinz 57, ain't got a clue what's in me.
That's pretty much my wife, although she has clues, some have proven to be outright wrong or misunderstood. For example, she thought she was part Cuban, turns out that ancestor had come to the US via Spain itself, nothing to do with Cuba at all. My wife and I might try to get something like this done at some point next year, I'll be sure to report our findings if we do.
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I have clues also. From my Last name I would assume German or somewhere close by just off that. Grandmother's Grandmother was nearly full blooded Cherokee and she has pictures, plus her square face and my nice reddish tan (i've never, ever been burned by the sun. :) ) as proof of that. But, besides that I have zero clue. I think doing one of those would be awesome. And, I've always had a itch to investigate my family tree, just never got around to pursuing it. I find all that very interesting.
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I have clues also. From my Last name I would assume German or somewhere close by just off that. Grandmother's Grandmother was nearly full blooded Cherokee and she has pictures, plus her square face and my nice reddish tan (i've never, ever been burned by the sun. :) ) as proof of that. But, besides that I have zero clue. I think doing one of those would be awesome. And, I've always had a itch to investigate my family tree, just never got around to pursuing it. I find all that very interesting.
My wife is in something of the same boat. English (as in, England) last name, her mother's maiden name is Spanish (from Spain). They suspect some Native American decent somewhere, but it seems to be conjecture, no one really knows where along the line. I have a feeling that if they make a map of her DNA ancestry it is literally going to be the globe though, haha.
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My wife and I had genome testing done, part of that included ancestry stuff. Results were really interesting.
Interesting because my dad did some genealogy a few years back. Traced his family line back to the civil war before he lost track (sure, log into ancestery.com and you can see that someone has traced any family tree back through the time of Moses, but without any degree of accuracy) . Anyway, that means, basically, that I am American. There is no recorded history of my family's immigration to the united states for any of my 4 grandparents, because it happened to damn long ago and whoever they were weren't rich enough to have their names recorded somewhere.
On the other hand, my wife's grandfather immigrated from Italy, we we're talking 2nd generation immigrant right? (or is that third? whatever, you get it).
Results? I'm >60% Irish. The rest is German (like 20%), and "unspecified northern European" - because some genetic markers are less descriptive than others. Also, <1% native american - a verification of my grandfather's crazy stories of being 1/8th native american because of a bastard son of some person etc. etc. grandfather ramblings.
My Wife, <25% Italian. She was so pissed :P. The rest was mostly unspecified southern Eropean, but also an appreciable amount ashkenazi jew - totally a surprise.
To me, this goes to show you how irrelevant your 'ancestry' is, and how unrelated it is to nationalism. Genes don't care, and they don't make nice pretty 50/50 splits when you make a baby. If you want to identify as German or Irish or Italian or American, fine, but know that your genes more than likely don't support it. Besides, even if they did, would it matter? People aren't dogs, we don't breed 'pure' bloodlines. Identify as you will.
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My wife and I had genome testing done, part of that included ancestry stuff. Results were really interesting.
Neat, like I said, if we get it done, I'll definitely post the results here.
To me, this goes to show you how irrelevant your 'ancestry' is, and how unrelated it is to nationalism. Genes don't care, and they don't make nice pretty 50/50 splits when you make a baby. If you want to identify as German or Irish or Italian or American, fine, but know that your genes more than likely don't support it. Besides, even if they did, would it matter? People aren't dogs, we don't breed 'pure' bloodlines. Identify as you will.
Exactly. I mean, it's relevant in the sense that it exists, but irrelevant in the sense that it has some meaning as to who, or how, you are. It's neat to see how fluid people's movements are/were, or how little details (like your grandfather's story about the Native American blood) quickly are relegated to myth, or trivialities. That sort of lore is lost without this kind of testing.
Obviously the lineage sort of stuff is what we are looking at though, so I'd have to look at different companies who do that best. We don't need to see what our kids would be like, we already know, ;)
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The company we used, 23andme, no longer offer the full suite of health information, which is a shame.
There are a couple out there, and even 1 that allows you to upload your information from other sites (the rest force you to do the testing through them, everything is proprietary). The problem with this type of thing is that it relies on aggregating large amounts of data, and with a handful of companies doing it and keeping the information to themselves, each one only has access to a fraction of the total data. There are different gaps with different companies based on the clientele that they have attracted and the research they have done.
I might send you the names of the ones that I have some limited information on (did some research before we picked one).
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Neat, there isn't any hurry though, we are pretty poor at the moment, so if we do it, it wouldn't be until next year, probably spring.
You'd think that these companies would realize that pooling resources would yield them better results. They should find a way to aggregate the data for all their own uses, then brand based off what they'll do with the data/additional resources they'll put in. But what do I know...