[Madness]

Wilshire, buddy ...

Reply #52 by one sciborg2.

[Cüréthañ]

If Aurang's line about damnation being determined by boundaries of flesh is to believed; summoning an angelic ciphrang is impossible because of logic. 
Summoning = sin, Angelic Ciphrang = !sin.  Straight cancellation; if you summon it, it ceases to exist. 

[Wilshire]

Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.

Alright well I'm out then. I will think this is just purposely tricky wording. There is no positive proof that angelic ciphrang exist. Its the parenthesis that do it in for me. Because of that, it reads more like an ironic thought (how the hell can you have an angelic rape demon?), rather than an admission of something new we haven't heard of. One cannot speculate as a nay-sayer, so I'll just watch.

[Cüréthañ]

Angelic Ciphrang were also referenced in an interview in a manner that confirms their existence.  I'm sorry I don't have the link for you Wilshire.

[Madness]

LMAO!

EAMD .

Curethan, Wilshire quoted sci's quote from the previous page, which is itself linked from the interview.

That is the only time angelic Ciphrang have been mentioned and, as Wilshire suggests, we might have taken the quote too literally...

Hrm .

[Cüréthañ]

Lol.  Really should take the time to check rather than relying on my memory after 3 hours sleep.  Sorry!

[Madness]

Pish... save your apologies for the funeral pyre. You've done no wrong here - after all, as the Inchoroi who would later become known as Aurang says, “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.“

[The Great Scald]

"Esmi, no!" he cried, but it was too late. She had already leapt the foundations, had already started sprinting toward him across the browned and blackened turf.
He saw it twinkle first—a flash in his periphery. Then the Mark, gouged nauseatingly deep.
He looked up ...
"Nooo!" he howled. Flower petals began falling from above.
Glowing golden, shooting rainbows out of its anus, white angel wings, a beautiful gentle smile...
A Ciphrang, called from the heavenly dimensions of the Outside. A perfumed godling.

[Madness]

Lol'd.

[Wilshire]

Does killing mountains of sranc not create a Topos since they don't have souls?
Does the tortured soul draw out the greatest tortures through the fabric of the world?

[Francis Buck]

Assuming they exist, I'd think that angelic ciphrang can't be bound because they're already being bound by one of the Hundred (thus making them angelic).

[Wilshire]

Random thought:

I was thinking of Topoi and then though, again, that if a Topos resembles Hell and is created through the accumulation of suffering, then maybe the accumulation of happiness/joy could create something similar but more like Heaven.
Then I was trying to think if there was any one place in Earwa that has been around long enough and has been surrounded by happiness for most of that time, that could possibly be this kind of inverse-topoi.
The only place I could think of would be The Tusk room in Sumna. I'm pretty sure that Tusk has been there in that spot for a enormous number of years, and since its basically a religious artifact its been pretty much surrounded by people who feel happy.

If ever there was an anti-topos, it would have to be there.

[mrganondorf]

@ curethan - really like this idea of digging too deep.  The end of TTT took us to what Cnaiur considered "too deep" so maybe TUC will take us deeper still.  Thank you for pointing out the dragon, I didn't notice it being out of place.  This is not Gringots!  Does this add a third category to the bakkerverse?  Outside, inside, *underneath*

@ wiltshire - the "death came swirling down" made me think of Homer, "dark came swirling down":
http://home.ubalt.edu/NTYGFIT/ai_01_pursuing_fame/ai_01_tell/iliad06.htm
gods as avatars has a homery ring to it

WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE TUSK ROOM BEING AN ANTI-TOPOI.  That sounds strange and wonderful and oddly fiiting since that tusk thingy is an inchoroi artifact!  Is it just a thing or is it still fulfilling a purpose for the Consult, like listening to conversations or messing with reality or i don't know what

where the hell do you get a tusk that big?  another abomination will see crawl out of the ark at the last battle?

@ lockesnow - the facts surrounding the fall of the ark really fascinate me.  Why did it crash on *this* world when it was so successful elsewhere?  Did a god strike it from the sky?  I can't think of any other entity powerful enough to harm the ark to the point that it becomes a dead womb and only 1/100 survive.

about the entire race trapped in hell--this is what I'm wondering the ultimate motivation for Aurang and Aurax is--they have some kind of absolute loyalty to their species and the advent of the NG will eventually let them reclaim Inchoroi souls form hell?  Resonates with what the synthese says at the end of TTT about not even the dead escape the benjuka plate.  Possible motivation for dunyain?  Reclaim dunyain of old?

topoi like pit--esmi's harlot womb like a topoi--NG special effect on wombs--WHAT DOES IT MEAN???

@ madness - i gotta agree with you that the inchoroi want earwa because it is the most connected to the outside--brilliant!

I like the idea of Atrithau being the oldest topois--I don't suppose it's soil is exported to help form chorae?  And btw, whatever chorae the great ordeal bring with them, they could be dwarfed by the number the consult have, right?  Unless the consult lost the art…

that bit about the place where sejenus ascended, was this guy beaten to death with a guilded thigh bone AND THEN ascended?  that sejenus life-narrative is hidden from us, mostly, makes me wonder if we're going to get revelations about him in TUC

@ locke - woo!  that's a neat idear about a weaponized topoi!  sure am glad i started hanging out here, i didn't know how many speculations i didn't know

about cnaiur feeling the "great inversion of ground" -- what if the mansion Old Moe was using was also topoi?  what end what that serve and what effect would it have on the captive skinspies and kellhus?

@ sciborg2 -- you got me thinking--is there an angelic counterpart to the daimos?  would mimara be connected to that?

@ auriga -- your quote reminded me--i'm really bothered that we don't know what happened between the event of akka being carried away by demon and akka waking up in a hut?  HIDING SOMETHING BIG IN THERE

[Madness]

@ wiltshire - the "death came swirling down" made me think of Homer, "dark came swirling down":
http://home.ubalt.edu/NTYGFIT/ai_01_pursuing_fame/ai_01_tell/iliad06.htm
gods as avatars has a homery ring to it

It's definitely an overt Homer reference.

WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE TUSK ROOM BEING AN ANTI-TOPOI.  That sounds strange and wonderful and oddly fiiting since that tusk thingy is an inchoroi artifact!  Is it just a thing or is it still fulfilling a purpose for the Consult, like listening to conversations or messing with reality or i don't know what

Genius. Words have power but so does Tekne .

where the hell do you get a tusk that big?  another abomination will see crawl out of the ark at the last battle?

Apparently, there were once Megafauna on Planet Earwa? Someone tossed out the nerdanel that Eanna is an elephant graveyard... like Pitch Black.

@ lockesnow - the facts surrounding the fall of the ark really fascinate me.  Why did it crash on *this* world when it was so successful elsewhere?  Did a god strike it from the sky?  I can't think of any other entity powerful enough to harm the ark to the point that it becomes a dead womb and only 1/100 survive.

I can totally see a Dune-esque ending where the Ordeal wins but then the Epilogue/Interlude of TUC is the "Crash Narrative."

@ madness - i gotta agree with you that the inchoroi want earwa because it is the most connected to the outside--brilliant!

I like the idea of Atrithau being the oldest topois--I don't suppose it's soil is exported to help form chorae?

One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible.

That is from Zombie Three Seas, Cu'jara Cinmoi was Bakker's handle there .

And btw, whatever chorae the great ordeal bring with them, they could be dwarfed by the number the consult have, right?  Unless the consult lost the art…

I can't seem to find the quote right now - though I suspect Curethan has it in the consolidated quotes thread.

But yes, the Chorae Hoard from Sakarpus is/was second only to the great accumulation Golgotterath has. Also, interesting to note that there may or may not be original Nonmen Erratics who made the Chorae.

that bit about the place where sejenus ascended, was this guy beaten to death with a guilded thigh bone AND THEN ascended?  that sejenus life-narrative is hidden from us, mostly, makes me wonder if we're going to get revelations about him in TUC

There is something strange about Sejenus' life.

about cnaiur feeling the "great inversion of ground" -- what if the mansion Old Moe was using was also topoi?  what end what that serve and what effect would it have on the captive skinspies and kellhus?

Wow... What if the Kyudean Mansion was Topoi... fuck.

[Wilshire]

Good thought about Atrithau dirt making chorae. I thought the art of making them was lost, but I'm probably wrong. Anyway, maybe all the chroae come from metals/rocks mined from that ground long ago. The anarcane properties of the soil was somehow combined with sorcery to create some bizarre contradition that renders transfers the anarcane properties of the sphere to whatever it touches.