Just freestyling some thoughts here.Quote from: TFS“The ruins of Viri.”
“The very same,” Shaeönanra replied.
“A lesson,” Titirga said, “to those who would dig too deep.”
... but Viri was destroyed by the Fall? So how does digging pertain?
We know the Non-men were burrowers.
The Thousand Halls under Ishual.
Cil-Aujis was a mansion - a holy city, not a mine.Quote from: TUCHe described a hate-rotted soul, forever falling into hell, forever deflected by ancient and arcane magicks, caught in the sackcloth of souls too near death to resist his clutching tumble, too devoid of animating passion.
A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
Always with damnation and the demonic are terms like falling and pit.
The Inchies came from the Void. And emptiness and void are often used in conjunction with revelations throughout, with the Ground spinning or wheeling about etc.
(***Digression***
And only the boundary, the Ground divides them, and only it can be Conditioned.Quote from: TTTHe ran. Not once did he stumble, nor slow to determine his bearings. This ground was his .... Conditioned.)
My intial thoughts were sparked by the idea of Hell below the earth, a classic meme of Christian theology iirc.
The nonmen and inchies both seem obsessed with digging deep.
In TJE we get the term 'kneeling deep' from Cleric.
All the architecture is massive as I remember - like the nonmen were trying to bring emptiness - the void - down to the low places.
Could this be some analogy for creating bubbles of oblivion in the afterlife?
Then we learn that they abused human slaves to make a topoi down there...
and seriously WTF is a DRAGON skeleton doing down there?
Then I remembered that Wutteat is sustained by a hell inside him - a topoi.
Perhaps creating that topoi was something the nonmen were trying to do?
At Mengedda in TWP, Akka says the Topoi are high places, causing a sense of vertigo. Perhaps the inversion of depth and height are important.
And the Inchies...
Endless tunnels beneath Min Uroikas.
Pits of the aborted?
Always filling holes in the Ark with murdered prisoners.
Shauritas' soul is suspended over a bottomless pit...
Okay, I'm not sure what all this could mean but I'll pool my water (my new Cish idiom for intuitive speculation ;) )
What if the Nail of Heaven (the Newborn) is a hole in the Ground that goes all the way through to the Void?
Perhaps the Nonmen of Viri damned the Inchies somehow when they "dug too deep" and let their damnation through into Inchi heaven?
Fallen Angels...
Quote from: CurethanAlways with damnation and the demonic are terms like falling and pit.Reminds me of: "Death came swirling down". We always get lots of that.
The Inchies came from the Void. And emptiness and void are often used in conjunction with revelations throughout, with the Ground spinning or wheeling about etc.Quote from: CurethanAll the architecture is massive as I remember - like the nonmen were trying to bring emptiness - the void - down to the low places.Also with the stuff you said about the Nail.... I wonder if the Great Medial Screw in Cil-Aujas lines up with the Nail of Heaven?
Could this be some analogy for creating bubbles of oblivion in the afterlife?Quote from: CurethanThen we learn that they abused human slaves to make a topoi down there...I asked some similar questions in the PreFAQ about topoi and have come to no conclusions since then.
and seriously WTF is a DRAGON skeleton doing down there?
Then I remembered that Wutteat is sustained by a hell inside him - a topoi.
Perhaps creating that topoi was something the nonmen were trying to do?
Creating topoi deep underground. Trying to make "bubbles of oblivion", or making their own "space" between the Gods to which they may flee to after death.
Now that you mention it, Wutteat being his own topoi that gives him immortality may be similar to something the inchoroi are trying to do.... become truely immoratal in the sense that even when the flesh rots and dies your soul remains bound/anchored (or at least un-grasp-able by any of the Gods).Quote from: CurethanAt Mengedda in TWP, Akka says the Topoi are high places, causing a sense of vertigo. Perhaps the inversion of depth and height are important.I always found "high place" an odd description, but it is more of a forced analogy than anything else. Just referencing that it makes the world closer to the outside in that place, as a mountain makes one closer to the sky.
Sci and I hashed out an interesting theory on Westeros more recently where Sci suggested the Nonmen learned of the Outside through Topoi and that informs their social discourse about Damnation and the nature of the Outside.
Their Mansions all start sinking into Hell due to their abuse of the Emwama...
That seems very likely. Strange things happen in the topoi whether or not you believe in the outside, so that is kind of an indication that something is going on.
Brother Siol,
Viri begs your pardon.
seems like perhaps it wasn't just an 18th century social nicety of discourse that Ninjanjin was using here. Perhaps he did in fact have something to be really really fucking sorry for. Something bad enough that he was conquered--something that had never happened before, eh? because wasn't Cujara Cinmoi the first Nonman king to be king of two mansions?
Did Ninjanjin cause the Ark to fall because he dug too greedily and too deep?
Love the thoughts in the OP. Great crackpottery that sounds sound.
Quote from: lockesnowBrother Siol,
Viri begs your pardon.
seems like perhaps it wasn't just an 18th century social nicety of discourse that Ninjanjin was using here. Perhaps he did in fact have something to be really really fucking sorry for. Something bad enough that he was conquered--something that had never happened before, eh? because wasn't Cujara Cinmoi the first Nonman king to be king of two mansions?
Did Ninjanjin cause the Ark to fall because he dug too greedily and too deep?
these fucking books
+1, bbaztek :D.
Quote from: bbaztekQuote from: lockesnowBrother Siol,
Viri begs your pardon.
seems like perhaps it wasn't just an 18th century social nicety of discourse that Ninjanjin was using here. Perhaps he did in fact have something to be really really fucking sorry for. Something bad enough that he was conquered--something that had never happened before, eh? because wasn't Cujara Cinmoi the first Nonman king to be king of two mansions?
Did Ninjanjin cause the Ark to fall because he dug too greedily and too deep?
these fucking books
Lol if something like that, or even something more ridiculous, happens I'd be happy to say I didn't see it coming.
I love the suggestion that something done in Earwa like Nin'janjin digging too deep could have summoned the Inchies. Like fallen Angels.
If messing w/ the Daimos can summon a Cyphrang from the Outside, perhaps messing w/ a topos can bring things from the Void too?
As cool as all of this sounds, I don't think it too likely. I think ALLCAPS Dragon proved that the Inchies were seeking out Earwa.
Although I guess we don't really know why though.
but if something, say an entire race, is trapped in hell, wouldn't it be seeking a way out?
Quote from: lockesnowbut if something, say an entire race, is trapped in hell, wouldn't it be seeking a way out?
Sure. And that could be why the Inchies sought out Earwa. I'm just saying that we don't really have any clue if what Nin'janjin and Viri did would have anything to do w/ this at all. It seems in intriguing possibility however unlikely.
Or perhaps the Inchoroi just worked out that the sort of special 'salvation-is-possible-in-this-life' world they needed would be one especially 'close' to the Outside - i.e. a world where topoi existed. So they built a machine to detect topoi and programmed the Ark to land near the biggest, deepest one they could find.
If whatever the Nonmen of Viri were doing prior to the coming of the Ark created a really impressive topos, well that would have sealed their fate.
Lol, you will all certainly mine the very world with your Nerdaneling and then our fate will be sealed ;).
Quote from: MadnessLol, you will all certainly mine the very world with your Nerdaneling and then our fate will be sealed ;).
a lesson for those who would mine too deep
Quote from: MadnessLol, you will all certainly mine the very world with your Nerdaneling and then our fate will be sealed ;).Just salting the Ground. :)
However, I don't think it's much of a stretch to suggest a race capable of building the Inverse Fire could also build a topos detector. It seems like a pretty obvious extension of the same basic technology.
To put it another way, I don't think the theory is anywhere near wacky enough to qualify as a Nerdanel. ;)
As a whole... nah, not even close ;).
Based on the Void not being the Outside.
I'd give credence to Topoi detector but I doubt it.
If it existed, it either didn't work because there is only Topoi on Earwa and they went to a bunch of other planets first or its range sucks and there are Topoi on all planets and so they keep detecting lesser ones.
How do the Inchoroi find out about 144,000 or that Salvation is promised somewhere? Who dropped those nuggets of knowledge on them?
Quote from: MadnessIf it existed, it either didn't work because there is only Topoi on Earwa and they went to a bunch of other planets first or its range sucks and there are Topoi on all planets and so they keep detecting lesser ones.My thinking was that they built the topos detector after wasting time on whichever world they visited right before Earwa - i.e. that they were basically guessing prior to that and that the new detector was what finally brought them to Earwa. The Inchies give the impression that they have a legitimate reason to think their plan will actually work this time.
Good call on temporal notation... I believe my last questions still stand.
Quote from: MadnessI believe my last questions still stand.Maybe the No-God talks to them when they look into the IF?
(In other words, I have absolutely no idea.)
You bent your mind the task - all I can ask :D.
How about a gradient?
It always puzzles me that the consequences of the Outside are unlimited in the Void but the manifestations of the Outside are limited to Earwa.
So I posit a gradient from Earwa, which has the most contact with the Outside (perhaps, a direct consequence of Topoi) and once the bubble broke, the Outside started leaking into Earwa... In this way, Inchoroi being encountering worlds where prophecy or the thaumaturgical takes place in more and more profound measures - leading up to Sorcery on Earwa?
Just thoughts.
There are a few ideas I like to return to here when I have the time. Some of my speculation was unclear, I think, for example about how the Nonmen may have created the Nail of Heaven and caused the Inchie's retribution despite the apparent temporal inconsistency.
But for now I'll just add this quote from Cleric refering to the fall of the nonmen.Quote from: WLW"Persecuted as false. Hunted by the very depths we warred to uncover, the very darkness we sought to illuminate"
I've had this line tagged since reading WLW and marking important passages. I wonder at your thoughts.
It's what chiefly prompted my thoughts that the act of abstracting more complex abstraction creates the entities of the Outside, even though based on being created, they've always had agency through time and space. Nonmen distinguish the holistic Outside into Gods and Not-Gods, Men abstract stable forms, then a Transcendent God, then an Immanent God... then whatever abstraction of entity Kellhus thinks up...
Just some questions I thought up.
Probably belongs in a 'topos' topic but with the forum all messy I figured it would be fine here for now. I also might have already written all these questions down so sorry if these are old questions.
What is the oldest topos?
When does an area become a topoi? (Accumulated time of the suffering, magnitude of suffering, a combination?)
Was there topoi before the Inchoroi?
Is the center of a topoi more .... topoi-y .... than the edges?
What determines the size of a topoi and where does it technically stop?
Are all topoi the same? For example, are they like electron orbitals that must reach a certain threshold of energy before jumping levels ( except instead of energy we have suffering and instead of levels we've got yes-topos or no-topos).
As a consequence, does the amount of suffering (or whatever factors contribute to making the topos) cause the outside to leak more or leak less?
And for the conspiracy theorists: Topoi, Inchoroi. Coincidence?
Quote from: WilshireAnd for the conspiracy theorists: Topoi, Inchoroi. Coincidence?I think Bakker just likes Greek-derived terms. ;)
(Though 'in-' is actually Latin rather than Greek.)
ETA: 'Choros' and 'topos' sort of tread a funny line between being synonyms and antonyms. They both define a location, but the former connotes an emptiness (such as a room or an open space), while the second implies a point where something definite exists.
'Inchoroi' is very ambiguous. It could mean 'Void-Dwellers', 'Those-With-No-Country', 'Outsiders/Foreigners/Aliens' or about a hundred other possibilities.
+1 for Etymology.
He must also enjoy these games ;). Those are all pretty relevant ambiguities based on combining some tasty morphemes from an ancient tongue.
EDIT: Btw, +1 Duskweaver. I wonder if Bakker knew the kind of fans he might rouse...
Quote from: Madness+1 for Etymology.Id say yes because these kinds of posts were what i would call bakkerbait on old three seas forums.
He must also enjoy these games ;). Those are all pretty relevant ambiguities based on combining some tasty morphemes from an ancient tongue.
EDIT: Btw, +1 Duskweaver. I wonder if Bakker knew the kind of fans he might rouse...
It'd be real cool to see Cu'jara Cinmoi as a new user one day ;).
EDIT: To be quite honest, you've stumped me, Wilshire. A cursory glance to jog my memory has done nothing... where do we have a thread more relevant to Topoi?
So in lieu of finding no such thread, I shall take some responsive stabs (guesses) here:Quote from: WilshireWhat is the oldest topos?
When does an area become a topoi? (Accumulated time of the suffering, magnitude of suffering, a combination?)
Was there topoi before the Inchoroi?
Is the center of a topoi more .... topoi-y .... than the edges?
What determines the size of a topoi and where does it technically stop?
Are all topoi the same? For example, are they like electron orbitals that must reach a certain threshold of energy before jumping levels ( except instead of energy we have suffering and instead of levels we've got yes-topos or no-topos).
As a consequence, does the amount of suffering (or whatever factors contribute to making the topos) cause the outside to leak more or leak less?
1) Oldest Topoi is either the Anarcane Ground under Atrithau (or Anti-Topoi?) or wherever the Nonmen first answered your second question. Lol, Duskweaver, what's a good etymolic creation for this, especially in light of Topoi and Locus having similar meanings and specific literary associations?
2)I think magnitude of suffering is more encompassing distinction and that time contributes directly to magnitude? So a combination? I wonder if X = 144,000 accumulated sufferers for the breach to occur (or soft spot to borrow Fringe analogies).
3)Yes but not where the Ark landed.
4)Yes. I like the invocation of gradient.
5)There is an exact circumference ;) - I honestly imagine those renditions of Einstein's pooling gravity of space-time. The center location of a maximum number/weight of emotion in a locus?
6)As per the Cu'jara Cinmoi quote, then all Topoi/Anarcane locus are places where the God dreams more or less lucidly, focuses more or less of its attention?
7)It causes the Hellish Outside to leak more... However, this offers no commentary on how the World and the realm of Absolution might breach. Is true Heaven on the other side of the subjective-objective realm of the Desirous Outside?
Topoi are paradoxes, they're like a pit to the outside, but Achamian describes them first as a Mountain of suffering that allows one to see as though from a great height. So a Topoi is a pit that is a mountain.
For some reason this reminds me of how a lecturer once described 'gravity/space time' as a blanket, and the earth sits in the blanket and the perceived displacement is gravity, so if you were to put another object on the blanket it would fall to the earth due to the displacement.
So if the universe is objective, that means suffering is objective. That means suffering has weight. That means suffering has mass. That means that mass could accumulate until it exerts it's own force. I think I made created a loop in there and didn't actually say anything.Quote“I’m sure you do … Do you know what topoi are?”
Saubon grimaced. “No.”
The attractive woman at his side yawned, rubbed her eyes. Without warning, a wave of fatigue crashed over the Galeoth Prince. He swayed in his saddle.
“You know the way you can see far from heights,” the sorcerer was saying, “like towers or mountain summits?”
“I’m not a fool. Don’t deal with me as one.” Pained smile.
“Topoi are like heights, places where one can see far … But where heights are built with mounds of stone and earth, topoi are built with mounds of trauma and suffering. They are heights that let us see farther than this world … some say into the Outside. That’s why this ground troubles you— you stand perilously high … This is the Battleplain. What you feel isn’t so different from vertigo.”
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 3048-3057). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
note how the 'gods' also moves Saubon when Esmenet or Serwe yawns, I presume, based on Saubon's reaction that Achamian is walking next to Serwe. :-p
Was watching a TED talk today, learned that the "topos", in greek, means "place". Not a particularly enlightening experience, but I thought it was interesting :PUmm... yeah. See Reply #23 in this very thread. ;)
But the whole mountain isn't a topoi, just the the depth, the pits where the suffering took place... and the gates, where the main part of the battles where.
I wonder, are dieing and suffering the same? Could the suffereing by the dead, at the hands of the hundred, somehow be "grounded" in the geographical place where they died, such that, when a lot of people die in one place, there is inherently a lot of suffering?
Kellhus spoke a sorcerous word and a point of light appeared, sheeting low-vaulted walls in illumination. Though ornate by Inrithi standards, the chamber was more austere than any he’d encountered since plumbing the darkness beneath Kyudea. The friezes that panelled the walls did not screen deeper carvings. They seemed more reserved in theme and content as well, as if the product of an older, more stolid age—though Kellhus decided it had more to do with the room’s function. It had been some kind of access chamber for the mansion’s ancient sewers.
Workbenches and strange iron and wood mechanisms littered the walls with shadow. At the far end of the chamber, where the ceiling sloped so low a man would have to stoop, a cistern opened beneath converging chutes, as dust-dry as everything else in the room. Nearer, two wells or pits had been dropped into the floor, each possessing graven lips that, perversely, had been carved into the semblance of hands reaching out of the darkness to tear at four spread-eagled figures, one for each point of the compass. With heads bent back in soundless howls, each clutched at the ground with stationary desperation.
The two skin-spies hung suspended above these pits, their arms and legs shackled in chains of pitted iron.
Suddenly Cnaiür could feel it: the miles of earth heaped above them, the clawing inversion of ground. He had come too far. He had crawled too deep.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Thousandfold Thought: The Prince of Nothing, Book Three (Kindle Locations 7563-7564). Overlook TP. Kindle Edition.
You know, there are a couple threads featuring etymology with Duskweaver...
Maybe I will consolidate them in the future.
I'm sort of fascinated of how Cnaiur describes the Mansion as a "Great Inversion of Ground" and particularly how that might relate to the Scylvendi's cultural take on Ground...
It could just as easily be that demonic Ciphrang congregate closest to objective reality due to ease of access to souls, like predators at a river bank.
The caprice of the Outside (where the distinction between subject and object is never clear) is such that those rare souls who walk its ways and return never seem to agree on the nature of what they have seen. Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.-http://www.fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html
Such words are just used for control 8)
For example, I was thinking about the fact that Angelic Ciphrang can't be summoned. The way Bakker says it, this could either mean no such Ciphrang exist, or it could mean that they do exist but no one has caught one via the Daimos...possibly because some property of being Angelic prevents their conjuration into Earwa.
Trying to get an angelic Ciphrang to serve you in sin is just a category mistake.
Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.
@ wiltshire - the "death came swirling down" made me think of Homer, "dark came swirling down":
http://home.ubalt.edu/NTYGFIT/ai_01_pursuing_fame/ai_01_tell/iliad06.htm
gods as avatars has a homery ring to it
WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE TUSK ROOM BEING AN ANTI-TOPOI. That sounds strange and wonderful and oddly fiiting since that tusk thingy is an inchoroi artifact! Is it just a thing or is it still fulfilling a purpose for the Consult, like listening to conversations or messing with reality or i don't know what
where the hell do you get a tusk that big? another abomination will see crawl out of the ark at the last battle?
@ lockesnow - the facts surrounding the fall of the ark really fascinate me. Why did it crash on *this* world when it was so successful elsewhere? Did a god strike it from the sky? I can't think of any other entity powerful enough to harm the ark to the point that it becomes a dead womb and only 1/100 survive.
@ madness - i gotta agree with you that the inchoroi want earwa because it is the most connected to the outside--brilliant!
I like the idea of Atrithau being the oldest topois--I don't suppose it's soil is exported to help form chorae?
One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible.
And btw, whatever chorae the great ordeal bring with them, they could be dwarfed by the number the consult have, right? Unless the consult lost the art…
that bit about the place where sejenus ascended, was this guy beaten to death with a guilded thigh bone AND THEN ascended? that sejenus life-narrative is hidden from us, mostly, makes me wonder if we're going to get revelations about him in TUC
about cnaiur feeling the "great inversion of ground" -- what if the mansion Old Moe was using was also topoi? what end what that serve and what effect would it have on the captive skinspies and kellhus?
Yeah the mechanisms of sorcery writing kind of blows my mind. How do you make an utteral and an innutteral? A written and an unwritten ... What distinguishes it from mundane writing?
I think the Tusk came from a Ciphrang. It would be just ironic enough for the Consult to give humans a present that will be revered as holy, carved out of the most unholy creature imaginable. I do believe they are described with elephantine features...
Also, I think the Tusk is pretty huge. I never got the impression that it was anything less than immense, though I can't recall its actually size being named. Mostly it just hangs in a room by itself. In my head its a big room and the Tusk fills it.
I think the Inchoroi would devour any planet if at full force, but if they landed on Arrakis all bent up and broken, I imagine most of them would be swallowed on their first venture out to the desert, and the remaining would hide out on the ship and starve to death :P
@ Madness - Now I really want what you said--a crash narrative to wrap up TUC. It's got to be revealed because in some ways, it's the single greatest hinge of the whole story. If the Inchoroi land with all their might and top-level tekne and fully rechargeable lasers on the promised world: nonmen and men extinguished before they even start on the No-God project, which takes like 5 minutes since they *finally* found the right spot.
It's been awhile since I've read Dune, what makes a crash narrative dunesque?
@ Madness - Now I really want what you said--a crash narrative to wrap up TUC. It's got to be revealed because in some ways, it's the single greatest hinge of the whole story. If the Inchoroi land with all their might and top-level tekne and fully rechargeable lasers on the promised world: nonmen and men extinguished before they even start on the No-God project, which takes like 5 minutes since they *finally* found the right spot.
It's been awhile since I've read Dune, what makes a crash narrative dunesque?(click to show/hide)
@ Madness - Now I really want what you said--a crash narrative to wrap up TUC. It's got to be revealed because in some ways, it's the single greatest hinge of the whole story. If the Inchoroi land with all their might and top-level tekne and fully rechargeable lasers on the promised world: nonmen and men extinguished before they even start on the No-God project, which takes like 5 minutes since they *finally* found the right spot.
It's been awhile since I've read Dune, what makes a crash narrative dunesque?(click to show/hide)
Don't even talk about that ending big... now I'm upset.
Well, I haven't mentioned anything about Herbert the Son's stuff :). All the content in the spoilers is from majority/endish of Chapterhouse: Dune.I was just agreeing with you, but the "end" of Chapterhouse is so frustrating because the prologue wasn't there and that escape scene was slightly different, it could have come to a nice end. Instead its left unfinished forever. :( >:(
If a single man could grow an Eye in his own heart, a whole nation bent to the same thought could certainly cause it to happen. Yes?
Gross, mg. :(
The eye in the heart is similar to Yatwer's manifestations in AE and Mengedda vomiting up skulls and weapons.
Note that none of this stuff occurs unless people are present, in the case of Yatwer, she requires a priest and/or ritual.
Normally, the outside leaks passively into the world via the watcher/watched connection.
In the above cases the connection is going the other way.
An eye in the heart is the kind of metaphorical trespass Akka expected to find.
I imagine a soul as old and stained as Aurang's would be impervious to that sort of psycho-magic backwash.
Do we really know that the Mansion of Viri was destroyed when the Incu fell? The glossary that the Ark fell in land ruled by Nin'janjin in the western regions of Viri. But even after that Cujara conquered Viri and it became a tributary. I think the digging too deep refers to Nin'janjin's alliance with the Inchoroi.
If Kellhus can "walk the Outside" why not just conjure up his own WLW? Or better yet, compel Yatwer to make a WLW that works Kellhus will.I imagine Kellhus' trip to the Outside was a very limited, calculated affair, and one in which he was very careful not to be spotted by the really big fish. I imagine any confrontation between Kellhus and a God in the Outside would end with Kellhus being trapped in eternal damnation.
If Kellhus can "walk the Outside" why not just conjure up his own WLW? Or better yet, compel Yatwer to make a WLW that works Kellhus will.I imagine Kellhus' trip to the Outside was a very limited, calculated affair, and one in which he was very careful not to be spotted by the really big fish. I imagine any confrontation between Kellhus and a God in the Outside would end with Kellhus being trapped in eternal damnation.
"The Gods..." Nannaferi began, struggling to render what was impossible in words. "They are not as we are. They do not happen...all at once..." TJE p117 US paperback
[akka speaking to mimara]"But things are always tricky where the Outside is concerned. Things do not...happen...as they happen here..." WLW p58 US hardback