The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 04:28:39 pm
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Does he have an important role to play still?
He is one of the few characters with us from the beginning and I always liked him for not being Kelhus pet. Now with his eyes pluged out and his intellect in tact he might still be a powerfull player although I don't know how RSB can utilze him.
Speculate.
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I love Iyokus' character. Always been a fan of summoning shit, and yeah the blind have played such a huge role I think he'll come back in TUC with some badass demons and a fledgling school at his command. But thats just me. The diamotic schoolmen with rise to fight dagliash!
98.4% unrelated:
I play an MMORPG with some friends of mine called Aion. My character name is Iyokus, and summon shit to fight for me :P, and I've been drooling over a black blindfold helm that is only available to characters at the level cap (so i'll never get it but one can dream).
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+1 coobek. I think the Necromancer is going to feature big in TUC. School of Daimotic Sorcerers is the only wildcard as far as Scarlet Spires go. I'm also hoping for a reunion round between Achamian and Iyokus - though clearly Achamian mops the floor with him too.
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Yes he is one of my favourites as well and i was dissapointed for his small part in the two last books.Let's hope this will change in TUC!One thing that puzzles me though is that as far as i remember he is the only chanv addict we meet in the books.He is already 128 years old with undiminished intellect and Grandmaster of the Spires.One would assume that many others would use chanv to prolong their lives.Any thoughts?
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I don't have my books handy, MK, but Eleazaras does reflect at some point that most of the Ainoni caste nobility were enslaved by Chanv's bite... which makes sense as they are closest to the Jekkian outpost.
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Elezearas refuses to use chanv because no one knows the origin right? I seem to recall that.
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Yeap. By the way, most excellent short story (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/fan-fic/negotiation-at-one-remove-by-walter-langendorf/) ;) - if I've assumed incorrectly, let me know. I read it when it was first written. Real cool.
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Yeah, that was mine, thanks!
Its interesting to think about what Iyokus could mean in terms of plot. I can't really see him as a major character if he remains loyal. Kellhus has presumably learned his arts, after all. The open role for him seems to me to be traitor. But how could that happen with Kellhus's ability to discern motivations?
Here are my thoughts on some things that differentiate him from the other Schoolmen with the Holy War, in terms of how they could allow him to serve a Judas role in the plot.
#1: He's blind.
Could that make him less apt for Kellhus's possession? If Kellhus' visage is part of what lets him shape people's thoughts Iyokus might be less influenced than other close associates.
#2: He's a Daimotic adept.
The whole summoning Ciphrangs thing is obviously his major salient point. The Gods are the most powerful Ciphrangs, according to Psatma/Meppa dialog. They hate Kellhus, or at least some do. Kellhus mentions that possession can happen when he's talking to the Nonmen. Could Iyokus be possessed, or become so at an inopportune time?
#3: He's a chanv addict.
If the Consult are behind chanv they might be able to hold that over him. Alerting him to the fact that the Holy War's success would mean his death via the lack of the drug he needs to hold off his advanced age might cause him to act against Kellhus's influence.
I hope we see more of him, at any rate, he's a cool customer. My favorite line from him comes when he learned that Achamanian begged for vengeance.
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+1 Madness :)
I'd like to see the reunion of Achamian and Iyokus. Somehow I think he will play a role in the thsi aspect as a good guy and maybe a traitor to Kelhus cause. Unless his quite logical mind will follow him the path Sheonara took, but hey now all the sorcerrers are NOT damned so say the Aspect Emperor.
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What's the name of the last Cish? Meppa? I kinda idle over a fantasy it's Iyokus. Kinda a passionate demon summoner!
Though chanv dulls the passions - oh damn, spoilt it for myself...
I play an MMORPG with some friends of mine called Aion. My character name is Iyokus, and summon shit to fight for me :P, and I've been drooling over a black blindfold helm that is only available to characters at the level cap (so i'll never get it but one can dream).
You dream of having your character brutally blinded? :o
:twisted:
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Yeah - There's no way that Iyokus can be Meppa as chanv addicts go super pale and Meppa is described as having nut-brown skin.
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Defection to the Consult is definitely a ready-made possibility for Iyokus.
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Defection the the Consult...
Were it not for Kellhus' repeal on damnation for sorcerers, it would seem sensible for all magic users to defect to the Consult.
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Iyokus Ieva, just saying.
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Personally, I think that Iyokus makes an unlikely traitor because of the fact that he would seem to be tailor-made to fit that role.
We know that Achamian blinded Iyokus with the blessing of Kellhus, and even if Iyokus is not aware of this connection we should probably assume some level of suspicion. We also might suspect that a combination of Iyokus' addiction and his blindness give him some defense against Kellhus' Dunyain abilities (I believe they probably do), but if Iyokus indeed has the ability and the motivation to betray Kellhus then we have to assume that Kellhus is aware of this himself.
I personally like Iyokus. I think he is an interesting character, but I just don't see how he can be a major player at this point. After twenty years of serving Kellhus it seems highly likely that he is either a true believer, or Kellhus has put measures into place which make betrayal impossible.
To be honest, I would like to be wrong about this. I think that Iyokus could make a pretty cool foil for the Great Ordeal, and I love it when we're occasionally reminded of Kellhus' fallibility.
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In which Army are Scarlet Spires serving right now?
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The Great Ordeal is reunited, coobek. Together they will feast on Sranc and siege Dagliash :).
+1 Centurion. That's why I suspect that their value lies in Daimotic Sorcery.
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Yeah. I need a re-read definitely Madness. I still thought they were split.
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With the destruction of the Southern army he is also the only Grandmaster who wasn't put into power by AK.
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Good call, generic, +1.
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Personally, I think that Iyokus makes an unlikely traitor because of the fact that he would seem to be tailor-made to fit that role.
We know that Achamian blinded Iyokus with the blessing of Kellhus, and even if Iyokus is not aware of this connection we should probably assume some level of suspicion. We also might suspect that a combination of Iyokus' addiction and his blindness give him some defense against Kellhus' Dunyain abilities (I believe they probably do), but if Iyokus indeed has the ability and the motivation to betray Kellhus then we have to assume that Kellhus is aware of this himself.
I would hazard that Iyokus definitely knows that the Warrior-Prophet sanctioned his blinding to appease his Holy-Tutor...
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Crackpot time.
I was thinking, perhaps Iyokus is working for the consult.
Possible ways of avoiding detection by Kellhus;
He avoided Kellhus for pretty much the entirety of PON,
His passions are vestigial thanks to chanv,
He is used to having see thru skin so he knows all about the 48 face muscles etc.
Hiding your true intentions is as per Yatwer's spit is a side effect of consorting with demons, or a basic incipient glamour in the arsenal of the Daimos.
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Out of curiosity, why is he referred to as the Necromancer? Just the association with Daimotics/Outside/summoning of spirits?
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I assumed so, yeh?
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Probably summoning of spirits. Though perhaps a term born from ignorance, as the ciphrang are hardly re-animated dead.
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According to Pat's interview a couple years back, Ciphrang have never walked the World as mortals.
But I can see how the Necromancer is an easy title to give someone who enslaves Ciphrang.
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Maybe he has summoned dead things somewhat akin to the wight?
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I don't think so but that would be craziness...
So weird. What is up with that Wight?
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Crackpot:
Iyokys has, since his blinding, researched the Psûkhe. He is now an Anagogic Titirga, with some extra Daimos on top.
Could be interesting.
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There is definitely something about being blind in Earwa.
Iyokus would know then that Yatwer protects Sorweel.
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There is definitely something about being blind in Earwa.
Iyokus would know then that Yatwer protects Sorweel.
+1 for blindness. Maybe Kellhus has more than 1 new school? A school of the blind.... The last cisharium indeed....
Why would he know that?
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considering the constant refrain of "soul's eye" and the especially evocative image of the ciphrang yanking the soul out of a cishaurim via the energy streaming from their 'third eye' perhaps blinding your world born eyes allows your soul's eye to see.
When the no god asked, none answered because all were blind (they saw only with their world born eyes) none in the world had their soul's eye open, no one saw anything, and thus he remained unanswered.
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Or the ability to perceive the Onta is simply not connected to the eyeballs.
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considering the constant refrain of "soul's eye" and the especially evocative image of the ciphrang yanking the soul out of a cishaurim via the energy streaming from their 'third eye' perhaps blinding your world born eyes allows your soul's eye to see.
When the no god asked, none answered because all were blind (they saw only with their world born eyes) none in the world had their soul's eye open, no one saw anything, and thus he remained unanswered.
Awesome. Wonder what would have happened if someone could "see"? Thats a good idea as long as the Cish started after the First Apocalypse.
Also, I wonder if Mog was looking for the Judging Eye? On that note, how would it look under that gaze?
... And speaking of TJE, what would happen is Mimara was blinded?
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Why would he know that?
Meppa recognized Psatma despite her mortal form and seems to speak directly to Yatwer as if she was present, when Fanayal takes Iothiah.
Curethan, I'm more thinking along the lines of Cishaurim, Ganus the Blind, and:
A blind beggar clasped him about the knees, blubbering.
"You must give! Give!"
It seems this fellow recognizes the Warrior walking through Momemn as Yatwer's Avatar.
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Maybe ALL the blind who perceive the Onta see in the so-called "Third Site"? In which case, your blind beggar could have been a schoolman. The schools probably never explored what blindness does to their ability to "see" the Onta, which makes sense as to why Elazarus freaks out so much when Iyokus returns without eyes.
The words Iyokus, do you remember the words?
Yes
Then you are still whole
(or something like that. The scene when Iyokus returns blinded, I don't have my books currently)
It occurs to me that this is the wrong question with the correct answer. He should have asked if he could still see the onta. We know that sorcery has very little to the words.
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Blind or not the Onta is still there. For the Few, their awareness of metaphysical topology is strong enough to impinge on their mundane perceptions, so they are aware of it despite the immeadiacy of regular sight. If I recall correctly, Xinnemus glimpses something of the Cish when he is escaping with Akka, yes?
Sight dominates our perceptions and it is very easy to be deceived by visual illusion, even when we know better.
Inclined to agree with Wilshire here. Further, the third sight may be accessible to all to some extent. This could explain how the Cish are initially drawn from a single tribe.
Madness, I address how I believe Meppa sees the ontological reality of Psatma in the 'Sorcery' thread. The beggar need not be of the few, just slightly more sensitive to metaphysical reality because his perceptions are not cluttered by sight. I can easily see the white-luck appearing as something very intense to a Cish or Mimara. Noisy, if you will. Even that beggar, with no other abilities beyond the mundane is shocked to suddenly 'see' this walking intersection of metaphysical influence.
We don't know if Ganus was human, nonman or inchi. I have a sneaky suspicion he was a pre-apocalyptic Inchi. But the ability to 'see' prophecy seems very likely to tie into some sensitivity like that of TJE.
Imagine if Mimara was blinded and learned to 'see' solely via the Onta and the JE... crazy!
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Imagine if Mimara was blinded and learned to 'see' solely via the Onta and the JE... crazy!
Haha yes! Thats what I was getting at.
Tertiary tangent not about Iyokus... ok I'm moving this to the sorcerery thread.
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Blind or not the Onta is still there. For the Few, their awareness of metaphysical topology is strong enough to impinge on their mundane perceptions, so they are aware of it despite the immeadiacy of regular sight. If I recall correctly, Xinnemus glimpses something of the Cish when he is escaping with Akka, yes?
Because he is seeing like the Cishaurim do, specifically, not as the Few do, generally.
Madness, I address how I believe Meppa sees the ontological reality of Psatma in the 'Sorcery' thread. The beggar need not be of the few, just slightly more sensitive to metaphysical reality because his perceptions are not cluttered by sight. I can easily see the white-luck appearing as something very intense to a Cish or Mimara. Noisy, if you will. Even that beggar, with no other abilities beyond the mundane is shocked to suddenly 'see' this walking intersection of metaphysical influence.
I lack evidence but I do think that the Sight of the Few, the Third Sight of the Cishaurim, and Mimara's Judging Eye are three distinct items.
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I lack evidence but I do think that the Sight of the Few, the Third Sight of the Cishaurim, and Mimara's Judging Eye are three distinct items.
Same here!
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Perhaps we could summarize the two alternatives thusly?
A) The modes of sight are different perspectives on the same metaphysical spectrum.
B) The modes of sight are looking at three different metaphysical dimensions.
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Perhaps we could summarize the two alternatives thusly?
A) The modes of sight are different perspectives on the same metaphysical spectrum.
B) The modes of sight are looking at three different metaphysical dimensions.
I'd agree with this.
I'd also like to add that I think the metaphysical effects of blindness are somehow very importantly linked with the "circuit of Watcher and Watched", which I also believe is linked to the nature of reality as it is in Earwa and the Outside (perhaps the superior "watcher" forms the greater reality, or something of that nature -- dunno, ties into my ideas of Earwa being a sort of noospheric Nexus, with the Hundred and damnation being anthropomorphic representations of primitive human morality, further reinforced by a relatively unanimous religion, the Kiunnat).
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Not sure how I missed this, Curethan. Though, I was writing an assignment on November 17th ;).
If a) then I would need to understand how sorcery fits on that spectrum (I can easily see the Judging Eye and the Third Sight as being two sides of the same coin or some such).
If b) then I would rephrase in basically the same fashion: two different metaphysical dimensions.
But then I'm back to a).
...
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Curethan - Yes, when Xinemas and Akka are returning to the Holy War from Iothiah, Xinemas "sees the Cishaurim seeing" and tells Akka about it. Akka says something like "you did see, in a way" and then describes the Cishaurim as the masters of the interval between sight and blindness. He also says that it's a mistake for men to assume that nothing lies between these two extremes (EAMD, lol).
However, this scene strongly suggests that Akka also sees them seeing, and Akka is not blind. He keeps worrying that they'll spot them and kill them, but it keeps not happening. It seems possible that the Cishaurim do see them but allow them to pass.
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I always forget about that damn shadow-walking scene. It always seemed very strange, almost out-of-place or something.
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It seems possible that the Cishaurim do see them but allow them to pass.
+1, Trisk. Common' you're supposed to be my partner in crime in moments like this. Clearly, Moenghus wants all people (but especially a Gnostic Sorcerer) to join his son in Caraskand.
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Trying to find a sorcery thread in a subforum i can talk about everything.
for sorcery we know meaning is everything. and to keep purity of meaning they use a dead nonman languge (nilguynic or something).
during TWP when Kellhus is building up the awe Akka feels for him he proves there is more basic logic in language (i think i hope i'm right) something about relations between whole sentences rather than subjects and predicates.
So obviously Kellhus understands language and it's structure as well/better as any person alive, why couldn't he create his own language for cants using his advanced knowledge of language that allows even more purity of recitation. Akka has already said that other schools use other languages.
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Sorcery (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=773.0) ;).
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Sorcery (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=773.0) ;).
Cheers :)
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Not sure if the idea has already been floated, but what if Iyokus has been dunyain all along? I don't know if I can trust anything from the text that the dunyain have truly been in isolation for the last 2000 years, for all we know that's just the story that fits Kellhus' conditioning. I feel like someone is going to be revealed as another dunyain in UC, but I was banking on the last surviving, insane scalper or Meppa.
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I feel like someone is going to be revealed as another dunyain in UC, but I was banking on the last surviving, insane scalper or Meppa.
I believe in the past we've submitted historical characters, maybe. Inri Sejenus comes onto the scene only decades (?) after the Apocalypse and the founding of the Dunyain.
Saccarees has also been submitted.
But I think most likely is that Achamian and Mimara will meet a survivor...
Or alternatively, the Scooby Doo ending.
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I think its possible that the Dunyain have been sending out agents to tailor the evolution of the world. Similar to Moenghus, once they are sent out they are never to return... Maybe this is something that they do with some of the failed student ever few centuries.
Though I made a model that seems to indicate a relatively small population can maintain genetic diversity with extreme breeding controls, perhaps they send out dunyain to bring back some viable breeding women to keep things fresh.
I don't think that Iyokus is a Dunyain though. He's just not strong enough, imo.
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I don't think that Iyokus is a Dunyain though. He's just not strong enough, imo.
You almost certainly right, but I can't help but think that the dunyain would find that kind of estimation a useful cloak. I don't think he could be dunyain unless there are really several out and about.
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I don't think that Iyokus is a Dunyain though. He's just not strong enough, imo.
You almost certainly right, but I can't help but think that the dunyain would find that kind of estimation a useful cloak.
If that's true, you can argue Saccarees as Dunyain (which is where the Grandmaster seems to be at the end of WLW) because I actually don't see the use in being ostracized by your community of peers.
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I wonder if Sacarees is only temporarily ostracized, has to sit in the corner and wear the dunce hat for a couple of days. It would be neat if Kellhus new something about the Nilnameshi school that required their destruction at whatever the cost to the Mandate. Unlikely but could be neat.