[profgrape]

A random thought after re-reading Khellus' meeting with Nin'sariccas:

If in Khellus' description of the Outside, "God... broken into a million warring splinters", the "warring splinters" refer to the Gods,
and the Gods are reflections of Earwan beliefs cast on the Outside,
then one could interpret the Emmisary's assertion that the Nonmen "worship the spaces between the Gods" to mean that they essentially believe in nothing. 

Given this admittedly dubious line of reasoning,  I wonder if the Intact have stayed Intact by finding a way to strip their mind of all belief. 

On a related note, is there any indication that the Nonmen had Gods of their own?

[Garet Jax]

...one could interpret the Emmisary's assertion that the Nonmen "worship the spaces between the Gods" to mean that they essentially believe in nothing. 

I agree with that.  Not believing in any gods would be the sure fire way to finding the "oblivion" they apparently seek instead of "salvation/damnation".

[SilentRoamer]

Someone may have to clarify this but I am sure that the Nonman hold ignorance or lack of knowledge as a mystic ascetic. So they worship what they do not know - they cannot worship what they know, therefore they worship and celebrate the unknown, the unknowable, the darkness (read spaces) between the Gods.

This is my opinion of their religious inclinations.

[profgrape]

If in fact that the Nonmen do this as a means to blur their Mark or attempt to avoid damnation, it implies that they are have some idea about Earwa's peculiar metaphysics. I write "some idea" as the Emmisary is clearly interested in Khellus' experiences in the Outside.

We know that the Sohonc (Titurga specifically) learned a similar technique from the Nonmen. From whom did the Nonmen learn this?  Wondering if the Inchoroi shared this tidbit. And if so, why...

[Wilshire]

Remember that the Nonmen where ancient before he breaking-of-the-gates. Many tens of thousands of years exploring sorcery/metaphysics in what was likely a relatively peaceful time would have allowed them to discover quite a bit on their own.

SR, I'm not sure I follow you're post. How is worshiping the unknown significantly different than worshiping "lack of knowledge"? The Nonmen certainly don't hold all knowledge in contempt, but regarding Gods an Damnation, it seems like the same thing.

[profgrape]

Good point.  Definitely plenty of time before the Cuno-Inchoroi wars to develop a theory or 2 about that sort of thing.

I associate the idea of worshipping the unknown with "not knowing" in Zen Buddhism. 

[SilentRoamer]

SR, I'm not sure I follow you're post. How is worshiping the unknown significantly different than worshiping "lack of knowledge"? The Nonmen certainly don't hold all knowledge in contempt, but regarding Gods an Damnation, it seems like the same thing.

Bear with me - 15 hour day at work and hard to parse my thouhgts.

I will have to look up exact quotes but I took Clerics religious description as the Nonmen worshipping what they do not know rather than nothing. So the space between the Gods is actually the absence of knowledge - assuming the Gods are the metaphysical manifestation of human belief/objectivity in the Outside (whatever the mechanism may end up being) then the only absence of Gods/God is the absence of knowledge. I feel like its an extension of the anthropocentric nature of the Gods, a lack of knowledge (or human input) results in a nul output. Therefore they worship the space between the Gods which is also the absence of knowledge, they worship what they do not understand.

Its not that they hold knowledge in contempt, it is that they cannot mysticise what they understand so in their alien thinking they decide to worship what they do not understand. Helps when your trying to avoid eternal torment.

Hope this makes more sense.

[mrganondorf]

i think we maybe in for a big surprise on nonman belief--i can't remember exactly where but akka is thinking that cleric doesn't sound like the nonmen cults he knows of and that cleric sounds too much like kellhus

if cleric is not a representative sample, what then???

[Bolivar]

That likewise reminds me of this quote:

“I will strip you to your footings,” the Nonman grated. “Though I love, I will upend your soul’s foundation! I will release you from the delusions of this word ‘Man,’ and draw forth the beast—the soulless beast!—that is the howling Truth of all things … You will tell me!”

Mekeritrig threatening Nautzera as Seswatha for the location of the Heron Spear. It sounds very Dunyain,  especially with the capital T Truth.

[Wilshire]

Dunyain, though somewhat opposite. A Dunyain would say that the "soulless beast" within would be the least of all Truth. It is the absence of higher function and therefore the lowest form of a Man.

[Francis Buck]

SR, I'm not sure I follow you're post. How is worshiping the unknown significantly different than worshiping "lack of knowledge"? The Nonmen certainly don't hold all knowledge in contempt, but regarding Gods an Damnation, it seems like the same thing.

Bear with me - 15 hour day at work and hard to parse my thouhgts.

I will have to look up exact quotes but I took Clerics religious description as the Nonmen worshipping what they do not know rather than nothing. So the space between the Gods is actually the absence of knowledge - assuming the Gods are the metaphysical manifestation of human belief/objectivity in the Outside (whatever the mechanism may end up being) then the only absence of Gods/God is the absence of knowledge. I feel like its an extension of the anthropocentric nature of the Gods, a lack of knowledge (or human input) results in a nul output. Therefore they worship the space between the Gods which is also the absence of knowledge, they worship what they do not understand.

Its not that they hold knowledge in contempt, it is that they cannot mysticise what they understand so in their alien thinking they decide to worship what they do not understand. Helps when your trying to avoid eternal torment.

Hope this makes more sense.

I think this makes sense and I agree with it. I also think this is part of why turning to the Consult wasn't such a horrible concept for a lot of Nonmen when everything was said and done. We're told many times that the No-God is essentially Oblivion, the Black Heaven, etc. While the Nonmen worshiped something more nebulous and vague, the Consult made (or were trying to make) a literal God of Nothing; oblivion personified. This also leads to the concept of the No-God being an almost point-for-point inversion of God. Where God gives answers, the No-God asks questions. Where God gives life, the No-God makes death. Where God creates existence, the No-God creates nothingness.

[profgrape]

Interesting, then, that Cu'jara Cinmoi put the first Inchoroi ambassadors to death because their words had no meaning. I'd originally thought this was another way of saying that the Inchoroi's language was indecipherable. But now I'm wondering if it was meant to be taken literally...

[mrganondorf]

Interesting, then, that Cu'jara Cinmoi put the first Inchoroi ambassadors to death because their words had no meaning. I'd originally thought this was another way of saying that the Inchoroi's language was indecipherable. But now I'm wondering if it was meant to be taken literally...

that's cool!  the ambassadors were literally 'speaking oblivion'! it's weird that CC would kill them tho--they would be ambassadors from the very 'space' that's supposed to be between the gods?!?

i wonder if there were warring religious camps in nonman culture.  it would be like Bakker to trick us into thinking they were one monolithic, homogenous group, when really they were as fragmented as Inrithism vs Fanimry vs Cults vs heterodox groups vs witches maybe vs whatever

OR maybe the worship of the spaces between the gods was the result of the collapse of an earlier religious movement--something happened way back when the gods still walked the earth which resulted in the gods leaving (in bodily form) and the nonmen turning away from their old faith?