What do you believe? (Redux)

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H

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« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2018, 02:54:14 pm »
Well said, thanks. Otherwise it seems to me we're just machines marveling that we know we are. If nothing more beyond what we can discover, why marvel at anything?

Another question: is the view there's nothing more for us preclude there's nothing more at all? Perhaps there are beings in the after, just not us ... that would be a real kick in the dick, wouldn't it?

So Wilshire/H ... let's say we definitely figured out the show doesn't go on. Would your state of being/view/self satisfaction be the same regardless if there was no metaphyscial reality at all vs there was, just for other species in the universe, but not for us? I think this is where the rubber meets the road on this ...

To me?  Yeah, it's all the same.  I don't predicate my day to day activity on it having some deeper, higher, or metaphysical meaning, connotation, or existence.  In fact, I don't predicate anything on that, because I have no idea if any of it is or could be real.  I don't see why it even matters.  What I do now has meaning, the meaning being to live.  I take care of my wife and family.  I experience life and things along the way.  Why do I need a metaphysical self for this?  Everything I need is contained within my body.  I have systems and functions and those allow me to do what I do.

Of course I have the delusion that what I experience is real and I go on that alone.  I don't entertain any idea that something happens to "me" when I am dead.  Under what auspices should I think that "I" am eternal?  Simply because I want that to be true?

So, if some other species out there does have a soul and lives eternally, I don't see how it has bearing on me.  Does it sound neat?  Sure, I guess.  But I have no idea what it entails, so I have no idea if it's a superior way to be.  Maybe it is and I'd be a bit jealous.  Maybe it's not and it'd be an awful system, like Eärwa.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Madness

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« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2018, 05:05:31 pm »
Indeed until just now I hadn't gone through it all. Some topics I consciously avoided in th epast, this was one of them.
Fascinating topic. I'm glad I wasn't around to ruin it with my drivel - its a great brick in the monument.

Also identifies a rather morose picture of what the forum has become. Good-tempered deep conversations with different perspectives maintained over pages of posts in the days of old, now new posts are short and silly one liners with longer posts totally ignored.

We are but a shadow. [/overly dramatic]

Lmao.

I'm taking my games and miniatures with me, motha fuckas!

"Bury me with my money" ;).

I honestly feel that the existence of an eternal afterlife drains all meaning from living. What is the point of your flicker of life when all that matters happens after? (rhetorical question, I'm not asking someone for an answer). I probably feel something along the lines of Koringhus and his jump off the cliff - if there is an eternity, might as well start it now. (btw, I'm not suicidal or recommending that anyone). Not sure how to articulate it otherwise, I just feel that life is far more meaningful when its all you have.

And, in fact, many religions have enduring stances on suicide (for and against), which I've always found interesting as per comments like yours here.

Probably repeating Past Madness, even in this thread, but if eternal oblivion (because eternity is the given that my brain both assumes and has never been able to process, despite much anxiety over the course of my life), then it is incumbent on those living to make this life on earth thing as amazing and fulfilling in as many instances as we possibly can.

I mean, I'm by no means a utilitarian, but is this really the "best" we can do? (Obviously, not directed at you specifically, #2.)

I also ultimately don't see a difference between the two options either, since a person can choose to live their life any way they like, regardless of their belief structure. People who do good, and people who do bad, exist on both sides of the line.

Nitpicking but that's just not accurate. For instance, in context of your above suicide commentary, suicide is automatic Damnation as far as I recall my Roman Catholic upbringing but - as I poorly understand it - grants you a place with the Almighty (bonus virgins to endlessly defile) in certain sects of Islam, supposing you take a couple infidels with you.

Behaving outside of your ideological dictates just isn't possible for most *true believers.* (Which highlights once again why these conversations get so convoluted and unintelligible so quickly, especially in contexts not here, where most of us have been cracked open to certain degrees by Bakker's writings.)

But, you're not necessarily correct - an afterlife is wide open, which could be our experience here is important for our growth after death ( and not a reward/penalty phase of existence, but continuation in some fashion ).

Again, barring our own Inverse Fire, we just have no way knowing (and even in conversations regarding Earwa's reality, the IF's accuracy is subject to much debate). I happen to agree - as I believe Past Madness also did (though, I should really read his old posts before speaking for him) - that I find the idea of humans having it "all figured out" unlikely.

But again - as noted - this conversation always just brings me back to doing better now for ourselves and more importantly for any of those (un)lucky enough to come after us currently contemporary living beings. Hell, take the reincarnation stance and pay it forward to your future self, ffs (not you in specific, Tao, the Royal You - that is to say, all of us).

We can't prove it to each other for the same reason we cannot see our souls, but we can prove it to ourselves. I'm open to I could well be deluded, but I claim I see God. I get it, the really real world has no color or sound and our brains are deliberately generating the conscious experience of color and sound for survival advantage ... but the beauty of this experience is Godly. Trees are purty. To me anyways  :D

Interesting, Tao. I haven't asked - though I think it came up a couple pages ago in your original post in thread - but are you devout?

I just don't follow why some people (not anyone here) would think that life ending (meaning nothing is after), if true, means that life is meaningless or pointless.  Consider, you know that a video game will end, but you still play it.  The whole point is to go through (with) it.

I think it becomes problematic because many of us are raised *inside* (differing) ideologies. Thus, instead of just doing playing the game as best we can, the starting conditions for most people are to quibble and quake as we worry about the possibility of our eternal souls and acting in accordance with the rules dictated by the Magical Belief Lottery Winning Ideology (something something Bakkerism ;)).

As per Fanayal, the majority of the world is still at Shimeh, screaming at each other across the fields "Who is the true voice of God?" while we fuck-kill-repeat the vicious cycle.

Perhaps, a "God-less" generation of atheists or agnostics will do much better or worse moving forward ;).

Well said, thanks. Otherwise it seems to me we're just machines marveling that we know we are. If nothing more beyond what we can discover, why marvel at anything?

Because it is absurd. Because why this rather than nothing? Because what is this? Just what the fuck is going on here?

Living should engender marvel and awe.
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H

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« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2018, 05:14:33 pm »
I just don't follow why some people (not anyone here) would think that life ending (meaning nothing is after), if true, means that life is meaningless or pointless.  Consider, you know that a video game will end, but you still play it.  The whole point is to go through (with) it.

I think it becomes problematic because many of us are raised *inside* (differing) ideologies. Thus, instead of just doing playing the game as best we can, the starting conditions for most people are to quibble and quake as we worry about the possibility of our eternal souls and acting in accordance with the rules dictated by the Magical Belief Lottery Winning Ideology (something something Bakkerism ;)).

As per Fanayal, the majority of the world is still at Shimeh, screaming at each other across the fields "Who is the true voice of God?" while we fuck-kill-repeat the vicious cycle.

Perhaps, a "God-less" generation of atheists or agnostics will do much better or worse moving forward ;).

I think it's all about the same, because while it isn't necessarily "God" it's something and that something probably isn't much better.

Well said, thanks. Otherwise it seems to me we're just machines marveling that we know we are. If nothing more beyond what we can discover, why marvel at anything?

Because it is absurd. Because why this rather than nothing? Because what is this? Just what the fuck is going on here?

Living should engender marvel and awe.

I think a grown (rather than assembled) machine that can know itself is actually pretty amazing and marvelous.  But that's just me.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2018, 04:03:01 pm »
are you devout?

By my thinking, yes - not sure if I "fulfill" the definition of devout. I piss people off more than live a spiritual life. But if your ask is am I "confident", yes, I am; but, I follow no code or equation or ritual or custom or ...

Living should engender marvel and awe.

Agreed, but pointless if we sport no soul/free will. Wow, we're machines! Ain't that a kick in the head!

that something probably isn't much better.

What makes you say that? Kind of odd, thinking there's no tomorrow, but if there is it likely sucks.

I think a grown (rather than assembled) machine that can know itself is actually pretty amazing and marvelous.  But that's just me.

Why so? What exactly is enabling us to see this? Or is that the marvel - that there's nothing more, yet we evolved to this level of awareness? A toaster coming to realize it toasts bread - just evolving to do something other, like burn fingers. Just doesn't sound all that impressive to me, but to each his/her own.
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2018, 05:13:43 pm »
Living should engender marvel and awe.

Agreed, but pointless if we sport no soul/free will. Wow, we're machines! Ain't that a kick in the head!

Fucking Saturdays so no forum time - spent my morning in kitchen, as per usual but I saw this as we're leaving the house and needed to respond.

I'll take this experience - terror, awe, and all, over never having known this existence, whatever may come.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2018, 12:23:43 am »
Why so? What exactly is enabling us to see this? Or is that the marvel - that there's nothing more, yet we evolved to this level of awareness? A toaster coming to realize it toasts bread - just evolving to do something other, like burn fingers.
This is the quandary of men, as also mentioned in TDTCB. We're in the circle of beasts, yet we possess intellect.

Just doesn't sound all that impressive to me, but to each his/her own.
The machinery of the world is logos my friend.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 12:31:36 am by TLEILAXU »

Woden

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« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2018, 10:31:19 am »
Post mortem nihil este, ipsaque mors nihil.

And:

Life is but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2018, 01:59:56 pm »
Post mortem nihil este, ipsaque mors nihil.

And:

Life is but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Noice! You're quoting one of my all time fav's in the second quote.
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

Wilshire

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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2018, 02:27:59 pm »
@Madness
But Catholics commit suicide all the time. People convert religions, take up new banners, act outside of the laws and constraints of the system that they pretend is absolute. So, like I said, people do what they will regardless of their belief structure - how many pedophilic priests are there? Especially for systems which allow for "oops, I'm sorry - can I go to eternal happiness afterlife now?" - "Well, since you asked, come on in!" there really isn't anything stopping people from doing whatever they want.

@TH(?)
Or whoever asked if anything would change for me if we found out the afterlife was something in-particular: Well, if we found out that there was nothing, or that we couldn't get to it, literally nothing would be different for me. I don't use metaphysics to justify my actions. If we found out that there was a 'right' afterlife, I suppose I'd play the game just like I do everything else in life - minimize work that maximizes long term positive outcomes. If that meant mass murder to achieve subjective dominance over a particular corner of eternity that I could live in happiness and control forever - I'd be all over it.

But, per Madness, absent our own IF, I don't see that happening, so I again don't see how it matters either way. I'm content with maximizing local happiness.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2018, 03:25:36 pm »
I think a grown (rather than assembled) machine that can know itself is actually pretty amazing and marvelous.  But that's just me.

Why so? What exactly is enabling us to see this? Or is that the marvel - that there's nothing more, yet we evolved to this level of awareness? A toaster coming to realize it toasts bread - just evolving to do something other, like burn fingers. Just doesn't sound all that impressive to me, but to each his/her own.

But we assembled a toaster, to toast bread.  I mean, it would impress me if the toaster suddenly gained self-awareness without someone building it in.

What's amazing to me is that we can do some pretty crazy things with our monkey brains that weren't even assembled, but rather grown.  To me, that is astounding.  That I can even convey this idea to you is pretty astounding.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2018, 03:40:45 pm »
That I can even convey this idea to you is pretty astounding.

If no soul, no after, no identity - then simple complexity. I would say your astonishment is evidence there is more than what is visible/learnable. What evolutionary advantage does astonishment lend? Not saying all evolutionary driven outcomes ( are there any other? ) are for advantage, of course - just suspect it's your "free will" that finds this all astonishing  :) ... for which mine does too!
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

Wilshire

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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2018, 03:45:06 pm »
I've seen what I can only describe as astonishment in many pets. Ever see a magic trick done for a dog?
Not sure why you need free will, a soul, eternal life, and a god, to feel things...
Emotions are felt, whether we're machines or not.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2018, 03:49:51 pm »
I've seen what I can only describe as astonishment in many pets. Ever see a magic trick done for a dog?
Not sure why you need free will, a soul, eternal life, and a god, to feel things...
Emotions are felt, whether we're machines or not.

Agreed, you don't need those things to feel things. I concede consciousness can probably be achieved without free will/soul. My point is we don't have free will if we have no soul. Our perception of free will is the result of complex calculations ( the darkness that comes before ). "Holy shit, I'm a machine!" is not enough for me to "believe" we have free will. There's more to it.
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

Madness

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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2018, 04:22:05 pm »
@Madness
But Catholics commit suicide all the time. People convert religions, take up new banners, act outside of the laws and constraints of the system that they pretend is absolute. So, like I said, people do what they will regardless of their belief structure - how many pedophilic priests are there? Especially for systems which allow for "oops, I'm sorry - can I go to eternal happiness afterlife now?" - "Well, since you asked, come on in!" there really isn't anything stopping people from doing whatever they want.

True say.

If at any time they are "right" (momentarily winning the Magical Belief Lottery) and act outside of their ideology, though, they're no less Damned? I suppose I was more trying to highlight that even people who don't "follow the rules" of their particular belief system, still - at least in some cases - experience cognitive dissonance as per their behaviors, probably... I would think.

Why so? What exactly is enabling us to see this? Or is that the marvel - that there's nothing more, yet we evolved to this level of awareness? A toaster coming to realize it toasts bread - just evolving to do something other, like burn fingers. Just doesn't sound all that impressive to me, but to each his/her own.

But we assembled a toaster, to toast bread.  I mean, it would impress me if the toaster suddenly gained self-awareness without someone building it in.

"What is my purpose?"

If no soul, no after, no identity - then simple complexity. I would say your astonishment is evidence there is more than what is visible/learnable. What evolutionary advantage does astonishment lend? Not saying all evolutionary driven outcomes ( are there any other? ) are for advantage, of course - just suspect it's your "free will" that finds this all astonishing  :) ... for which mine does too!

Agreed, you don't need those things to feel things. I concede consciousness can probably be achieved without free will/soul. My point is we don't have free will if we have no soul. Our perception of free will is the result of complex calculations ( the darkness that comes before ). "Holy shit, I'm a machine!" is not enough for me to "believe" we have free will. There's more to it.

I'll admit to being slightly confounded by your perspective, Tao.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2018, 04:29:49 pm »
I've seen what I can only describe as astonishment in many pets. Ever see a magic trick done for a dog?
Not sure why you need free will, a soul, eternal life, and a god, to feel things...
Emotions are felt, whether we're machines or not.

Agreed, you don't need those things to feel things. I concede consciousness can probably be achieved without free will/soul. My point is we don't have free will if we have no soul. Our perception of free will is the result of complex calculations ( the darkness that comes before ). "Holy shit, I'm a machine!" is not enough for me to "believe" we have free will. There's more to it.
We've spoken before about this, several times, and while I get that that's the crux of your perspective, I'm not sure how you're applying it to this discussion specifically.

Madness, to summarize TH belief before things get too tangled:
If the universe is all cause-effect, then it doesn't make sense that humans have something that exists outside of that. If, though, a soul exists, then the the cause-effect chain is broken and free will can exist.

One of the other conditions of possibility.