[What Came Before]

Lol, thanks Madness.

I think you may be onto something when you say that the Inchoroi probably added the sorcery part. I mean, they were damned wo ever getting into sorcery, and they probably hated Seswatha and his ilk.

I don't think I can imagine them putting together a holy book for humans and NOT saying that. Maybe in the end sorcery is like all action in Bakkers world as I'm starting to suspect: if its not consciously for God, its a sin. Sorcery as sin is just a quicker accumulator than most, because you're not only interacting with creation, you're also fundamentally changing creation in some way.

[What Came Before]

Well, I was figuring that the Nonmen would have conditioned the Inchoroi to hate/fear sorcery long before humans because of the initial Cuno-Inchoroi wars where the Inchoroi relied solely on their weapons of light and Nonmen allies. Then they seduced the Aporetic Nonmen, then grafted the ability to see the onta themselves, then much, much later Aurang and Aurax would have encountered Human sorcery.

[What Came Before]

I didn't mean man had conditioned the Inchoroi to fear it, just that they feared it and so would include a ban on it when writing human scripture.

[What Came Before]

I think we're agreed there. If you mean the Inchoroi feared sorcery and probably included Sorcery is Damned on the Tusk. Cause I don't get why the Holiest of the Five Tribes were apparently Shamans - which Kellhus is pretending? to be - yet sorcery was ultimately prohibited by Man's original beliefs. Of course, its also been argued that Man's Gods are just the Inchoroi anyways - depending on how much you think Bakker's interview answer answers.

So many questions.

[What Came Before]

I think he said they made only one adition, which was 'thou shalt smiteth the non-men'.
Really don't need encouragement to hate sorcerers.  All they do is fry people and blow shit up.

[What Came Before]

I believe sciborg corrected me when I wrongly asserted that Bakker had said both Nonmen and Sorcery were added to the Tusk. You are correct, Curethan. Transcendiot and I are speculating of further omissions on Bakker's part.

[What Came Before]

They're usually inducted into whatever school at a very young age... and the family probably receives some form of compensation; a peasant family isn't going to really care (they can have another one, right?).

No one really knows what sort of changes the Mangaecca have gone through in the intervening centuries. They are undoubtedly immortal, but I'm willing to bet they are also much more physically acquainted with inchoroi technology/other genetic manipulation. If a sorcerer isn't turned off by that (just look at how well it turned out for the Nonmen), or much less by the abhorrence of what the consult stands for, then the challenge of getting up North without dying would be enough to deter him (it was enough of a challenge for Achamian and an expedition that was prepared for him by Kellhus just to get to Sauglish).

Supposing one did the impossible and made it all the way North, there is in addition no guarantee he wouldn't be killed, enslaved, experimented upon, raped to death, etc.

[What Came Before]

Yeah, they don't seem to be actively proselytizing.

[What Came Before]

Yeah, they don't seem to be actively proselytizing.

They should talk to the born again Christians at my University. They could certainly teach them a thing or two about shouting on street corners.

[What Came Before]

'undamnable'

There must be some special node of the brain that converts mobster style beatings into the very pinacle of evaluation. 'Everybody thinks they are undanable' - who's 'undamnable'?

[mrganondorf]

I would like to see an Atrocity Tale of a school or just one sorcerer trying to find the Ark to get whatever they can from it and having an encounter with the residents.  All the noobs convert or die, but Bakker could fill it up with some awesome conversation about damnation and stuff.

I'm bugged, by the lack of allies the Consult has made, but I'm more bugged by the apparent lack of sorcerers via some breeding project.  If I'm the Consult, I keep a human stock around all the time to breed as many of the Few as possible.  2000 years of this could put as many sorcerers against the great ordeal as it has soldiers, idk.  Perhaps you couldn't keep them all alive like Shae (maybe the shield is oh so special to it) but you could keep a nice current stock for whatever.

They certainly should have been considering it when Kellhus was doing the same thing in the 3seas.

[Kosoter]

I always figured the Consult doesn't recruit people because they rely so utterly on secrecy and deceit. They kill and replace people, they don't recruit them. Skinspies live longer, are harder to kill, more trustworthy and so on. They don't need more sorcerers right now, no matter how powerful they are. The only useful sorcerers in the world are the Mandate and they haven't even fought them in centuries or thereabouts.

I think the breeding of Ursranc is very telling. If they're bred to be more stable and controlling sranc that can use more complicated gear and use actual tactics, they're probably bred with humans in some suitably unpleasant way or just genetically altered to be useful as warriors or assistants. There must be some humans working with the Consult that aren't sorcerers and they've got to be fucking something. If they're Few, great, they can be taught some magic but I don't think they actively breed just for that. They rely on constructs and few of them seem magical. They rely on weapon races. They rely on sneaking and people not even realising they exist. Why would they need a crazy big army? Even a sorcerous one? Nobody is going to attack them until they see the Ordeal coming...and even then, it's a bit late to start a breeding program or recruit sorcerers because again, they're all pretty much Team Kellhus. If Kellhus is going to save their souls anyway, why do they need to believe the IF? What if Kellhus has his own IF that he shows to doubters?

I just don't believe the Consult have anything but some Nonmen (who will have plenty of sorcerers), Ursranc, a few human dudes (who are probably not very good at fighting) and a lot of weapon races like sranc, bashrag and wracu. Maybe they can very quickly churn out skinspies that are just designed for fighting but nothing else? They certainly seem content to send them out to die uselessly to convince Kellhus he's keeping good tabs on them. I think the Consult's forces will just be a few very old names of unspeakable power and a lot of chaff. I don't see any need in their recent history (couple of centuries, hell even couple of decades) that suggests they'd ever want/need lots of sorcerers in the first place.

[Madness]

I always figured the Consult doesn't recruit people because they rely so utterly on secrecy and deceit. They kill and replace people, they don't recruit them. Skinspies live longer, are harder to kill, more trustworthy and so on. They don't need more sorcerers right now, no matter how powerful they are. The only useful sorcerers in the world are the Mandate and they haven't even fought them in centuries or thereabouts.

During the Apocalypse, they corrupted Nau-Cayuti's wife, Ieva, to poison her husband and deliver him to the Consult. They've only had the skin-spies for three hundred years and, apparently, only been able to produce one who works sorcery.

I think the breeding of Ursranc is very telling. If they're bred to be more stable and controlling sranc that can use more complicated gear and use actual tactics, they're probably bred with humans in some suitably unpleasant way or just genetically altered to be useful as warriors or assistants. There must be some humans working with the Consult that aren't sorcerers and they've got to be fucking something. If they're Few, great, they can be taught some magic but I don't think they actively breed just for that. They rely on constructs and few of them seem magical. They rely on weapon races. They rely on sneaking and people not even realising they exist.

...

I just don't believe the Consult have anything but some Nonmen (who will have plenty of sorcerers) ... I think the Consult's forces will just be a few very old names of unspeakable power and a lot of chaff. I don't see any need in their recent history (couple of centuries, hell even couple of decades) that suggests they'd ever want/need lots of sorcerers in the first place.

You're discounting the possibility of other new Weapon Races. Also, I agree that Consult probably regularly use the Few that they find/capture in the world and don't breed for them, specifically... maybe.

And surely the Consult are still working at undermining the Three Seas, if not those among the Ordeal itself... after all, Aurang is on the south side of the Ordeal when he checks up on the thing called Tsuor (Soma).

[mrganondorf]

Well, I don't know that the Consult's secrecy would be at all threatened by breeding their own sorcerers.  Seems like they could condition them at least the same way the Mandate collects younguns.

[Madness]

I think it a question of how many people are still available to the Consult in the Ancient North. The Werigda's existence surprised me, for instance.