[Blackstone]

That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or. 

Continuing in a line of less probable things, there is the chance that Mek backtracked Kellhus to there, they killed everyone just for the hell of it.  Pretty sure Madness thought of that at the very beginning of this thread actually.

That actually seems like a reasonable explanation. I still vote it was Kellhus though.

[H]

That or Leweth actually survived and went back to take his vengeance on Kellhus' old friends. Either or. 

Continuing in a line of less probable things, there is the chance that Mek backtracked Kellhus to there, they killed everyone just for the hell of it.  Pretty sure Madness thought of that at the very beginning of this thread actually.

That actually seems like a reasonable explanation. I still vote it was Kellhus though.

Yeah, if I were laying bets, that's where I'd have my money too.

[Blackstone]

It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.

[MSJ]

It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.

Or, you could go with my line of thinking. That Kellhus and Moe are the culminations of the Dûnyain's plans. And, they have moved to a different locale to be of use to Seswatha for the SA. Indeed, a bunch of Dûnyain Gnostic sorcerors who reek havoc on the Consult. Wishful thinking, mostly.

[Wilshire]

It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.

How do you know there aren't any bodies? The best place to make a stand would be within the darkness of the Thousand Thousand halls, regardless of whether or not they were attacked by someone using magics.

Besides, all we have seen is ishual in the distance.

[themerchant]

Yeah the Dunyain know when to run, Kellhus was handling the mek situation till sorcery reared its' head and then he was OFFFFFF like Usain Bolt.

So i imagine a flight into the TTH, which they all know their way around would be the move to make.

[profgrape]

Okay, crazy-ass idea: that's not Ishual.

Consider this snippet from TDTCB prologue:

On the forty-third day, [Kellhus] waded across a shallow river and clambered onto banks black with ash.  Weeds crowded the char blanketing the ground, but nothing else.  Like blackened spears, dead trees spiked the sky.  He picked his way through the debris, stung by wees where they brushed his bare skin.  Finally he gained the summit of a ridge.

The immensity of the valley below struck Kellhus breathless.  Beyond the fire's desolation, where the forest was still dark and crowded, ancient fortifications loomed above the trees, forming a great rung across the autumnal distances.  He watched birds wheel over and around the nearer ramparts, flash across stretches of mottled stone before dipping into the canopy.  Ruined walls.  So cold, and so forlorn, in a way the forest could be.

And then this from WLW:

At last the two of them stand side by side on the glacial summit, sucking air that never seems to nourish, gazing out across the basin of an enormous green-and-black valley.

Yes, there's no mention of the glacier in the prologue.  And we know that there's a glacier leading to Ishual.  But what if the map lead them to the ruins in the valley instead of Ishual?

[themerchant]

Maybe the whole series is an analogy for global warming? I think in one of the pragma flashbacks a glacier is mentioned though, can;t be certain, maybe says something about it curving like a womans back or something.

[MSJ]

Maybe the whole series is an analogy for global warming? I think in one of the pragma flashbacks a glacier is mentioned though, can;t be certain, maybe says something about it curving like a womans back or something.

Yes, in the Logos is without beginning or end scene.

[profgrape]

Well, I did say it was crazy... :-)

[mrganondorf]

Hi citizensnips!  I guess that could totally be the case.  Maybe the Dunyain think that if it looks like their castle is in ruins, then no one will bother it.  Knowing them, they would use all the ruined bits as strategic parts of a defense.

Have we gone over this possibility?  Perhaps Kellhus or Moe come to believe that Ishual will be soon exposed and destroyed unless something is done.  Kellhus shows all his brothers (sisters) how to travel to and maybe live in THE OUTSIDE!!!  Then he crashes the whole thing to confuse the Consult.

@ H - I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Kellhus would get rid of the other Dunyain if he is the pinnacle.  If he is the pinnacle, then he is the alpha and could certainly make use of at least some of the Dunyain.  If some are too dangerous to keep, the surely there are some of the others that are more like his children (less gifted) that he could bend to his will and use as sorcerers or whatever. 

Plus, if Kellhus is really smart, then he would see the point of having other smart people around, the way a study group can check each other's answers.  Some may retort and say "but he's prideful, self-centered, cannot see his own limitations" but isn't that exactly the kind of thing that Dunyain breeding/training is suppose to extinguish?  The Dunyain and the best Dunyain would be *extremely* cognizant of human limitations.  I do think that Kellhus has a blind spot, I'm just not sure what it is, and I'm not sold on the idea that he would eliminate something like the whole Dunyain breeding project.  I mean, he keeps Cnaiur alive to continue using him and Cnaiur is no Dunyain.

I don't know that Kellhus would be motivated by the "suffer no rivals" mindset.  After all, the Dunyain live together in Ishual--since there are more than one, it would suggest that they show at least some tolerance of rivals.  Plus, the notion of 'rivals' would be another one of those things to breed/train out of them.

If he really does believe (as he says at the end of TTT) that he is more than a Dunyain, then he certainly doesn't need to kill those lesser types that could prove useful to him.

@ profgrape - i like your crazy ass idea!  fake map leading to fake ishual!  now who and why is sending Akka on this fool's errand?  is he being sent to a different mansion to discover whole new secrets?  a second dunyain project???

[mrganondorf]

Attempting a complete summary of possible culprits for destroying Ishual:
1) Consult (perhaps just Mek)
2) Dunayin themselves (either they trashed it to hide elsewhere OR if they really really believe that Kellhus is the final product, maybe they just offed themselves)
3) Ishterebinth
4) Kellhus
5) Moenghus
6) Wutteat
7) Other dragon?
Ciphrang or Ciphrang possessed individual?
9) Yatwer or Ajokli or other god?
10) Natural calamity - like Osgiliath (The God?)
11) Sranc/Bashrag - sure the Dunyain could fight off a lot, but at some level not even they could withstand the these guys
12) Cleric (independent of Ishterebinth)

[Wic]

Yes, there's no mention of the glacier in the prologue.  And we know that there's a glacier leading to Ishual.  But what if the map lead them to the ruins in the valley instead of Ishual?

Coincidentally, just read this during the Kell/Moe conversation:

From the very first, ever since descending the glaciers into the wastes of Kuniuri, Kellhus had pondered the man now leading him through these galleries of darkness.

[mrganondorf]

Yes, there's no mention of the glacier in the prologue.  And we know that there's a glacier leading to Ishual.  But what if the map lead them to the ruins in the valley instead of Ishual?

Coincidentally, just read this during the Kell/Moe conversation:

From the very first, ever since descending the glaciers into the wastes of Kuniuri, Kellhus had pondered the man now leading him through these galleries of darkness.

Nice!  Text Detective Wic!

[Blackstone]

It just occurred to me, and maybe someone else mentioned it, IF (big if) the Consult destroyed Ishual, there don't seem to be any bodies, which means some of the Dunyain were captured. The GO might be marching on a Consult that has an army of Dunyain sorcerers because IIRC somebody mentioned Scott said the Dunyain were inadvertently breeding for magical ability as well.

How do you know there aren't any bodies? The best place to make a stand would be within the darkness of the Thousand Thousand halls, regardless of whether or not they were attacked by someone using magics.

Besides, all we have seen is ishual in the distance.

It's an assumption that there are no bodies. None were mentioned in the teaser chapter, and if some sort of battle took place, I don't think all the Dunyain would make it down into the halls before they got killed. But we didn't get the whole chapter, so maybe some will turn up!