The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:57:28 pm

Title: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:57:28 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Has anyone else pondered the similarities of the WLW visions and the Dunyain, specifically Kell's, probability trance?

On the one hand you have divine providence, and the other mundane math and statistics. However, they seem to be more or less the same thing.

The WLW sees "what already happened" in the future. But isn't this what Kell sees when he follows the PT? Also consider that the WLW is driven by Yatwer, who inherently cant see the Tekne (if my understanding is correct), more specifically the devices it creates (intellects without souls and all that). If that is true then there may come to a point where the visions of the WLW stop lining up with what is actually happening. At least it should throw a wrench into the gods plan to kill Kell.

Now take Kell. First of all he was a prodigy of the Dunyain. From this I think you can assume he had the potential to become one of the strongest and brightest Dunyain in history. An Einstien even. Given enough time and with all the proper variables, he may be able to see farther, and with much more accuracy, than the gods and their inability to see the Tekne. It would be like Kell never knowing of the consult. No matter how long he followed the PT, he would never 'discern' the TTT (assuming of course that it is something that exists for this discussion). He might even be able to predict the actions of the gods.

I guess another question to consider would be, can the WLW succeed? Is it even possible. Certainly in a 1v1 fight in a room with no entry or exit that could include no interference there is a good chance the WLW could possibly win. However with the Inchi and their devices, as well as all the things they cause that the gods may not see, it seems to me nearly impossible for the WLW to win. To many unseen variables. Or, even assuming that the gods could see all results of the actions of things they cannot see, it is certainly within Kell's considerable power to control at least 1 among the many Consult agents and weapons races (1 creature that is, not a whole race), and use it against the WLW.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:57:34 pm
Quote from: sologdin
so, AK is essentially, like ali or tyson, gonna unify the belts of the logos, the gnosis, and the tekne in order to whoop WLW ass?  sounds good to me.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:57:39 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
unify the belts like ali lol. glad i figured it all out then.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:57:44 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
I'm not so digging on the 'gods only see souls' bit getting in the way. The predictive could see the WLW's sword being notched, and that has no soul.

Though what might be interesting is if by using this predictive method, Yatwer suddenly percieves beings without souls on Earwa. She just didn't look in this way before (with great power comes great tiny mindedness).
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:57:48 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Not gods only see souls. They can certainly see the world humans are standing on. Maithanet says gods cannot perceive intellects without souls. So the prediction things can only cover a realativley finite world, considering the part that the Consult have played for years without the gods knowing. Of course this is assuming that the warrior races have intellect. Its arguable I guess that sranc are little more than beasts (though I personally think they have enough thought power to call 'intellect'), but skin-spys certainly have some amount of intelligence.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:57:53 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Sranc have language, (crude) politics, limited tech, and will of their own. They're certainly intelligent.

The Gods can perceive the world through the actions of ensouled beings. But if they cannot perceive the actions of an intellect without a soul then the consequences of their actions will disrupt their predictive power.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:57:59 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: The Sharmat
Sranc have language, (crude) politics, limited tech, and will of their own. They're certainly intelligent.

The Gods can perceive the world through the actions of ensouled beings. But if they cannot perceive the actions of an intellect without a soul then the consequences of their actions will disrupt their predictive power.

Which makes their response a feedback loop at best. Reactionary only. Sure they could see a bit whirlwind, but certainly not lone sranc, or skin-spys. Who knows, the consult may know of the WLW and decide they dont like it, too much of an unknown, and just kill him with a skin spy. Yatwer would certainly be confused why her unstoppable killing machine died suddenly, but thats her problem.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:04 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Wilshire
Not gods only see souls.
Then how do they see the notch on a sword?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:09 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Wilshire
Not gods only see souls.
Then how do they see the notch on a sword?

Did you read that whole post or just the first 5 words? Sorry the first sentence was confusing, but as the rest of the post indicates, I never intended to suggest that gods cannot see anything but souls. Refer to the sentence directly following the quoted one: "Gods can certainly see the world humans are standing in".
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:14 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Then how do they see the notch on a sword?
I interpreted it as they can also see anything a human has ever or will ever interact with. A man beheaded doesn't just suddenly fall apart to the perception of a God. A God would see the headsman and the axe as well.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:19 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Wilshire
Not gods only see souls.
Then how do they see the notch on a sword?

Did you read that whole post or just the first 5 words? Sorry the first sentence was confusing, but as the rest of the post indicates, I never intended to suggest that gods cannot see anything but souls. Refer to the sentence directly following the quoted one: "Gods can certainly see the world humans are standing in".
I'm stuck - did your post argue with mine or not? If it argues, you have claims of finite perception hinging around souls, yet I'm saying the WLW predictive can see right down to the notch on a sword. I already noted the idea of the gods being lazy in their perception and if they actually looked via the predictive lens, they might find the consult glaringly existant.

Quote
I interpreted it as they can also see anything a human has ever or will ever interact with. A man beheaded doesn't just suddenly fall apart to the perception of a God. A God would see the headsman and the axe as well.
Who knows their sword will fall apart from a flaw just at the right time?

If you don't know, how is that interaction?

To me it seems to be raw data reading, instead of reading the narrative connectionism of headsman and victim (which can be an entirely flawed narrative - say the victim percieves the headsman as his killer, yet someone else runs up and chops off his head? The narrative connectionism is false in such a case).

I mean seriously, ten years without babies and the gods can't see. Seems some room to humour simple perceptual failure.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:24 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Who knows their sword will fall apart from a flaw just at the right time?
The WLW knows that's going to happen because it already happened to him.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:30 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
All im saying is that what the WLW 'sees' is just as flawed as what everyone else sees based on the limitations of the gods.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:35 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Who knows their sword will fall apart from a flaw just at the right time?
The WLW knows that's going to happen because it already happened to him.
Are you saying the rendering point of the universe has actually moved on well past these events (Yatwer somehow messes with what has already been stiched into the loom)? Or somehow the universe doesn't need the prior moment to render the next moment? Otherwise if the universe does have to render A before it can render B and hasn't rendered it yet, it hasn't happened to him - it's a predictive.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:40 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Predictive as long as time flows in a straight line. If time branches, forks, and splinters into different paths, alternate realities if you will, then the gods 'may' not be able to follow each one. The the gods see and exist in a time/place without a no-god, where they see and know everything. We know this is not the truth. So they are wandering around with blindfolds on, unaware that they are unaware, in a time/space that is moving on without them. The things they 'know' and 'see' are vastly irreverent because its from a time/space that no longer exists and cannot therefore hold absolute meaning. They can be be near to the mark for a time, but eventually as time moves on, they will become farther and farther away from reality and only understand when it is much to late that they are just as blind as the ones that worship them.

Thats the possibility im considering. Its like the whole Moe thing. Either you choose to believe that he (or the gods) are omnipotent and we've been deluded to believe otherwise, or you believe that he (or the gods) was the deluded one and the world has moved on.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:46 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
The White Luck Warrior is supposed to exist partially outside of time, so it HAS already happened to him, and is happening to him, and is going to happen to him. Maybe he's overlayed onto an alternate timeline where there is no No-God though and it's screwing with his interaction here. I dunno. Temporal stuff is hard.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:51 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Who knows their sword will fall apart from a flaw just at the right time?
The WLW knows that's going to happen because it already happened to him.
Are you saying the rendering point of the universe has actually moved on well past these events (Yatwer somehow messes with what has already been stiched into the loom)? Or somehow the universe doesn't need the prior moment to render the next moment? Otherwise if the universe does have to render A before it can render B and hasn't rendered it yet, it hasn't happened to him - it's a predictive.
Wouldn't 'fate' imply that it's a prerendered universe rather than a render-on-the-fly universe?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:58:57 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: lockesnow
Wouldn't 'fate' imply that it's a prerendered universe rather than a render-on-the-fly universe?
I'm speaking from the idea you can't get out of 'render on the fly' at some point. How did you get that prerendered universe? 'Well, to make it, we had A, then from that we got B' and bang, that's your point of rendering there. At the very least 'Well, the prerendered universe just...exists' surely doesn't sound that great a way of skipping any point of rendering?

Besides, fate seems to imply a narrative spine to unfolding events (a conspiring world, even). That's a different kettle of fish.[/quote]
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:02 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
To be fair, I've never seen a kettle of fish so I wouldn't know
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:07 pm
Quote from: Madness
Just parading around the forums, seeing what moves me, as I continue living my strange hours.

I'd been looking to bump threads that fell off prematurely - also, I'd forgotten to look in Misc. Chatter the other day when I was previously bumping topics. I wasn't necessarily going to attempt anything too mentally strenuous but since I hadn't tackled this thread yet, here goes.

The Dunyain use the Logos to determine the intricate narrative weave of cause and effect. The Warrior's role is cast. He will always experience the perfect correspondence of cause from a Dunyain's perspective. Essentially, he's walking the line of perfect probability - though, obviously, accumulating probabilities in your favour yield happy events more and more quickly and fortuitously so the Warrior won't always experience the least probable outcome in every circumstance.

However, the White-Luck Warrior is also trapped by his circumstance. The end result determines all of his actions, an inevitable line of events, lacking any personal agency, towards culmination.

It enables Kellhus certain divergent tangents in planning. He could ultimately fabricate the circumstances of the White-Luck Warrior's visions in his favour, provided he had enough knowledge.

Also, the Dunyain training allows Kellhus to see cause and effect all the way to a corresponding Big Bang-like event in Earwa's universe. All the way to God?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:12 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Pertaining to that last line you wrote, that would be the ultimate goal. To see everything before and become Absolute. They have not achieved that, or not that we know of.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:17 pm
Quote from: Madness
Hmm... there is a passage when Kellhus is reflecting - TTT, TWP? - about how he sees what comes before, down to the angles of the architecture, of cognitive schema, ideas, around him. It was the passage that first ever spawned that idea in me - like if he could just keep going back, would he realize that there are messages from God all around him, in the movements of human interaction, of history, or in nature's formation (twig with two branches o.O)?

But you're right at that point I didn't feel he was there yet.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:22 pm
Quote from: Triskele
I have to admit that while I mostly loved book 5, I'm still confused about the WLW.  Is it Sorweel?  Is it the Narindar?  Is it Fanayal?  Are we supposed to be confused?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:28 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
We are certainly supposed to be confused.
And it could be all or none of the above depending on how you interpret the words or how much you weigh who spoke which ones.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:33 pm
Quote from: Madness
I've argued that confusion is because of the occluded variables. Likely, the world opens up a bit further in the next books.

We have good thoughts about the White-Luck Warrior being his own mortal body or otherwise, anyone Yatwer needs. I'm willing to bet he's tied to one mortal coil though.

I think Zsoronga is right in his belief that the Gods sometimes use mortals as their personal agency and Narindar has become a loose cultural title for those individuals - not truly Narindar proper.

The White-Luck Warrior kills the true Narindar and takes his place before Esmenet goes to meet the true Narindar. That's why there's her momentary confusion as to why he doesn't have the traditional long-hair and that his mother named him Issiral, Fate.

I think that Fanayal is Gilgaol's Avatar. It reflects that I think all the Cult Gods will have Yatwer level agency in light of Maithanet's death. I also think that Psatma and Meppa know this yet haven't enlightened Fanayal to this reality.

Kelmomas - Ajolki
Achamian - Anagke

It could get interesting...
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:39 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness

Kelmomas - Ajolki
Achamian - Anagke

It could get interesting...
DA always did have a thing for whores...
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:43 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
After all the gods foes are vanquished (consult, no-god, kellhus), after man-kind lies bloody and broken upon the countless miles, after the world is brought back from the verge of complete annihilation, after all this, the Gods in their hundreds come down to Earwa with their avatars and fight for supreme rule over the promised land hoping to secure the remaining souls for their own.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:51 pm
Quote from: Triskele
If all of those Gods were going to get an avatar, I would think that Husyelt would get one as well, but I have no guesses as to who that could be.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:55 pm
Quote from: Madness
Absolutely, Trisk - in fact, I'm almost actually expecting something Erikson in nature to emerge in the Siege of Momemn and the War of the Cults.

Esmenet is a lifetime believer in the Hundred - in the iconic confrontation between her and Maithanet at the end of WLW, he's kneeling before "a tenth of the Hundred, the eldest and most powerful" (p805). If Inri Sejenus and then the social position of Shriah, and thus Maithanet, maintained some kind of metaphysical hold on the agency of the Hundred, then Yatwer has now broken that yoke.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 11:59:59 pm
Quote from: coobek
I think WLW is formidable foe due to walking the perfect probability path. I, in fact, I do not see how Kell can defeat him. Therefore I dislike WLW character a lot, since as already stated somewhere I'd like Consult to get their ass kicked seriously and for now it's only Kell between them and nothing.

Having said that though, its obvious it must be Akka who kills Kell after he took away his wife, comeon.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:04 am
Quote from: Amun
I have a couple ideas about how Kellhus avoids the WLW.

One, Ajokli is little Kel's secret voice. Since Ajokli can see what the other gods can't, it's possible that he can make himself hidden from the other gods as well. So in a way Ajokli makes little Kel a WLW against Yatwer (other gods too?). Even though the assassin can apparently see the future path he will take, maybe Kel can screw this up by "hiding" where he is blind.

Little Kel is running around the palace and is the closest person to act against the WLW. Plus, if he suspected WLW was going to harm Esmi he would lose it.

The second scenario involves the Daimos. If the gods are only big ciphrang, and if they are demonic, then they can summoned via the Daimos (per Bakker's Q&A interview). During the siege of Dagliash Kellhus uses a sufficiently powerful form of the Daimos and chains Yatwer herself, bringing her into the world. Not only would she be one of the most powerful demons capable of being summoned (I think Dagliash falls very quickly in this scenario), but she is removed from the Outside.

I think the WLW loses the White Luck if there is no one in the Outside to give it to him. Remember, each moment is a gift. While Yatwer becomes Kell's slave, anything goes in Momemn. The WLW either loses his ability to see each and every moment, or what he does see will be wrong.

Can't really imagine any other possibilities at the moment, but those two make sense to me.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:11 am
Quote from: Madness
coobek, I figure that Kellhus can come before the White-Luck, integrate the visions into the his plans. Death, perhaps, is not the end in Earwa?

I feel like the Gods being summoned by some kind of concerted effort by the Anagogic Daimos or Kellhus attempting Gnostic Daimos is pretty likely. However, I've never thought about Kelmomas killing the White-Luck. +1 on that, Amun.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:16 am
Quote from: coobek
WLW was a immense suprise to Maitha though...
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:21 am
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Amun
One, Ajokli is little Kel's secret voice.

Samarmas is the secret voice in Kelmomas' head, that was quite obvious in the books.

The implication is that Samarmas' personality was left in his brother's soul (for the want of a better word) while his body was reduced to a mentally-handicapped shell of his actual self, when he was forcibly separated from Kelmomas.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:25 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Given the timeline, unless the WLW finds some big eagles to fly to mordor and drop him in front of Kell, I don't see how he is going to catch up. Even if he jogged nonstop to Dagliash it would take some time. The acquisition of several horses may help, but even still he'd ride many to death  and still take a rather long time to catch up.

I like kelmomas being the anti-whiteluck. Ajokli may have a role to play.

(Kids got siona's blood obviously, though so does the WLW then if Maitha didn't see him).
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:30 am
Quote from: Madness
Lol, Kelmomas' Voice is not so cut and dry, Auriga.

It is something measured... here (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/kelmomas-voice-t1188804.html)[/u][/url], actually.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:35 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Amun
One, Ajokli is little Kel's secret voice.

Samarmas is the secret voice in Kelmomas' head, that was quite obvious in the books.

The implication is that Samarmas' personality was left in his brother's soul (for the want of a better word) while his body was reduced to a mentally-handicapped shell of his actual self, when he was forcibly separated from Kelmomas.

Everything in the entire series is obvious if you decide your POV, reading, and interpretation are the only valid one.
Bakker has said that the text is fallible, so nothing, ever, is certain.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:41 am
Quote from: Madness
Lol. I'm fallible :P.

In my opinion, Samarmus is actually a good bet. There's simply much - purposefully - confounding evidence.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:45 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Wilshire
Given the timeline, unless the WLW finds some big eagles to fly to mordor and drop him in front of Kell, I don't see how he is going to catch up. Even if he jogged nonstop to Dagliash it would take some time. The acquisition of several horses may help, but even still he'd ride many to death  and still take a rather long time to catch up.

I like kelmomas being the anti-whiteluck. Ajokli may have a role to play.

(Kids got siona's blood obviously, though so does the WLW then if Maitha didn't see him).
My impression from the text is that the WLW is like the villain of Octavia Butler's Wild Seed, able to flit from possessed body to possessed body and thus travel at very high speeds.

I think the text was deliberately very clear about the voice being Samarmis, I think readers are injecting ambiguity because they anticipate and expect and desire ambiguity, thus they confound the clear to make it unclear so that it satisfies their desires and fits the the enchanted frame of unknowableness.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:51 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: lockesnow

My impression from the text is that the WLW is like the villain of Octavia Butler's Wild Seed, able to flit from possessed body to possessed body and thus travel at very high speeds.
Thats an interesting thought, havent read Butler but you make me think of the Matrix :P.

Quote from: lockesnow
I think the text was deliberately very clear about the voice being Samarmis, I think readers are injecting ambiguity because they anticipate and expect and desire ambiguity, thus they confound the clear to make it unclear so that it satisfies their desires and fits the the enchanted frame of unknowableness.

Very likely, but absolutes lead to stagnation, or are at least not as interesting to discuss.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:00:56 am
Quote from: Madness
+1 lockesnow. I've thought that before too but I don't think that's how the White-Luck Warrior actually expresses agency. He's form-bound, in my opinion.

It's completely possible that Kellhus is preparing Proyas for life without him because Kellhus is going back to Momemn?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:02 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
It's completely possible that Kellhus is preparing Proyas for life without him because Kellhus is going back to Momemn?

Or too the east to find the rest of the prophecy.

Though it would be kind of silly for him to take off just like he did near the end of TTT only to come back at the last minute to save the day... Or maybe thats what he wants everyone to be waiting for in that last battle. Maybe they will have hope of his return and not flee the field of battle until every last one of them dies for the savior that never was.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:08 am
Quote from: Madness
I figure he's going to go see the Consult leadership while the Ordeal fights for Dagliash. Or he dies at the end of TUC and the epilogue is him sneaking to Golgotterath or something.

But the Tekne remains my only grip on what is valuable to Kellhus...
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:13 am
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Madness
I figure he's going to go see the Consult leadership while the Ordeal fights for Dagliash. Or he dies at the end of TUC and the epilogue is him sneaking to Golgotterath or something.

But the Tekne remains my only grip on what is valuable to Kellhus...

The Tekne would be a powerful tool for Kellhus, who we've seen push acquired knowledge to its limits. Imagine what would happen if Kellhus does for the Tekne that which he did for the Gnosis. Could he create his own monstrosities to rival the Wracu or even the No-God itself? I'd love to read about Kellhus convincing the baddies to give up their secrets  :lol:

Ditto for the Aporos, by the way -- if (and that's a big if) that knowledge still exists.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:33 am
Quote from: Curethan
I don't understand what Kellhus would need the Tekne for.

Are there some hints to secret desires that he wishes to gratify that I have missed?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:38 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Curethan
I don't understand what Kellhus would need the Tekne for.

Are there some hints to secret desires that he wishes to gratify that I have missed?

It would take more than one lifetime to achieve the Dunyain goal of self moving soul, unless that 1 lifetime was infinite.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:43 am
Quote from: Madness
I've never understood this confusion, Curethan - to me, that's like asking why Kellhus wanted sorcery or the Gnosis over the Anagogis?

Power? Ultimate agency? I'm not sure why he wants it. And no, it's never been hinted at, I don't think.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:48 am
Quote from: Curethan
Clearly, he needed sorcery for his mission.  Either to overcome Moe or to defeat the Consult.
Best tools for the job and all that.  It's all about the mission.

Beyond that its just about control.  If he can already conquer and dominate the world, what point to making abominations?
I just don't see the designs that would eclipse the TFT.

Re: immortatlity.
Either he has already grasped the Absolute or he never will imo. 

Shauritias uses sorcery to prolong his life, not the Tekne. 
I'm sure Kellhus could do the same if he wanted.
Tekne methods didnt seem to work out too well for the nonmen at any rate.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:54 am
Quote from: Madness
It worked to some measure for the Inchoroi.

I'm not sure you can make the distinction between him grasping the Absolute or never going to. The No-God is clearly a product of both.

We don't know anything about Shauriatas' immortality - we know what Achamian says he knows about ancient soul-binding techniques. We don't know how form-bound Shauriatas is or whether he's able to project himself a la Aurang's Bird Synthese.

Also, transhumanism is a big kick over at TPB, if you hazard that way. I cannot see him spending so much time on a theme within the sphere of philosophy and not the sphere of fiction.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:01:59 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Curethan
what point to making abominations?
...
Tekne methods didnt seem to work out too well for the nonmen at any rate.
You are confusing the limitations of the surviving Inchoroi for the limitations of the Tekne itself. Just because Aurax and Aurang only seem to be able to use it to make abominations doesn't mean that's all it's capable of, or that that would be all Kellhus could do with it.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:03:54 am
Quote from: coobek
Kelhus is both after Tekne and Consult.

Tekne - as its something new and he must absorb this knowledge to be closer to self moving soul. Since all knowledge disperse the darkness that comes before.     We are Borg. You will be asssimilated. Resistance is futile.

Consult - as those are the ones that he did not Condition and it might be thet their own Conditioning is preceding him (aka their influence on Tusk and humans).

+ Eternal life of course
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:03:59 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
I've never understood this confusion, Curethan - to me, that's like asking why Kellhus wanted sorcery or the Gnosis over the Anagogis?

Power? Ultimate agency? I'm not sure why he wants it. And no, it's never been hinted at, I don't think.
agreed
Quote from: coobek
Kelhus is both after Tekne and Consult.

Tekne - as its something new and he must absorb this knowledge to be closer to self moving soul. Since all knowledge disperse the darkness that comes before.     We are Borg. You will be asssimilated. Resistance is futile.

Consult - as those are the ones that he did not Condition and it might be thet their own Conditioning is preceding him (aka their influence on Tusk and humans).

+ Eternal life of course


all that

Immortality worked great for all the nonmen males. No real downside until they used up all the brain space. But Kellhus can already manually delete memories of others, a la Whelming, so he can do it for himself. So there goes the only downside. No reason for him not to want to be immortal. So, there is 1 reason to go to Golgotterath.

Why wouldn't he be able to obtain the absolute? The whole point is to come before the darkness that comes before. You can't do that without knowing what the darkness is, i.e absolute knowledge. It is stated several times that the Dunyain knew this would take more than one generation, breeding for intellect over thousands of years. If he can skip the next 10,000 years of breeding and just change his genetic makeup to become super-smart, that would help him become a self moving soul more than any other method available.  Reason 2.

Also, the Tekne is something he doesn't yet fully comprehend, so in order to achieve the Dunyain goal he would need to know all about that just like everything else. Reason 3.

Kellhus is a bit of a megalomaniac, maybe he just wants to have the biggest penis. (reason 4)
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:04:05 am
Quote from: Curethan
Erm, the nonmen nearly all died from the wombplague.  Then you have the brain rot which seems to include some kind of corrosion of the soul. 
If Tekne immortality techniques work so well, then why haven't the Mangeaca employed them?  They were able to use the Tekne to create the No-god which is something the Inchies alone were unable to do...
I don't think Whelming works like that.  He recalls having emotions as a child (the sword training flashback in TTT) despite his Whelming that allowed him to properly control those emotions - if it just made him forget such things he would not be able to understand them.

Khellus has either grasped the Absolute or become polluted by TDTCB. 
The axioms and techniques of the dunyain demonstrate that progress towards their goal can only be made in ignorance of the Darkness and thus they shield trainees from it.
He is already able to dominate all circumstance, to the point that he rules the world and can confidently oppose and destroy outside agencies.
If the Tekne can achieve genetic progress, would the Inchies not have already done this?

The dunyain are fantastic at understanding and manipulating, but they don't hoard knowledge.  Quite the opposite.  Knowledge is the darkness that comes before.
Kellhus takes what he needs for his mission.

Megalomania?  I don't see that.  For example, his personal quarters are spartan. 
At no time in any of his POV's do we see him fantasizing about wealth or power and when he gains those things it is only to facillitate his goals.

I really don't think that death would bother Kellhus or any dunyain as long as he completes his individual mission first.

Transhumanism is already included.  We already have neuro-tweaking concience removers, rapacious evolutionary dead ends and skill grafting psycopaths so its not somewhere new that the plot needs to go thematicly.

I think he is genuinely against the Consult or he is craycray and is being subverted by the No-god.

The only other possibility is that he wants to close the world AND prevent the Consult from summoning Mog so that he can become the God in its place, but I don't really see why that is something anyone would want to achieve.  "Yay, everyone is dead and I'm an allseeing, nothing-doing, eternally bored, omnipotent douchebag with nothing to do."
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:04:10 am
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Curethan
Erm, the nonmen nearly all died from the wombplague. Then you have the brain rot which seems to include some kind of corrosion of the soul.

All the woman is not nearly all Nonmen.

Quote from: Curethan
If Tekne immortality techniques work so well, then why haven't the Mangeaca employed them? They were able to use the Tekne to create the No-god which is something the Inchies alone were unable to do

...

If the Tekne can achieve genetic progress, would the Inchies not have already done this?

The Inchoroi's understanding of the Tekne was degrading before crashing on Earwa. The Inchoroi/Aurax had enough memory for it that, together with the Mangaecca, they figured out the No-God after a millenia of tinkering. After the No-God's destroyed, the Mangaecca labour again, without even that limited Inchoroi guidance for another 1700 years until they create Skin-Spies, new creations of the Old Science - leading Achamian to believe that they are close to the second advent of the No-God, on their own.

Straightforward enough? Why would Kellhus' understanding of the Tekne not dwarf everyone else's?

Quote from: Curethan
Khellus has either grasped the Absolute or become polluted by TDTCB.

I can think of some arguments for you but you can't simply offer this as self-sufficient evidence...

Quote from: Curethan
Transhumanism is already included. We already have neuro-tweaking concience removers, rapacious evolutionary dead ends and skill grafting psycopaths so its not somewhere new that the plot needs to go thematicly.

Do you feel like Bakker's beaten this horse to death yet though ;)?

Quote from: Curethan
"Yay, everyone is dead and I'm an allseeing, nothing-doing, eternally bored, omnipotent douchebag with nothing to do."

The series is going to disappoint someone... and it has to end somehow...
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:04:22 am
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
Straightforward enough? Why would Kellhus' understanding of the Tekne not dwarf everyone else's?


Yeah - If Kellhus gets the Tekne I don't see how he couldn't construct a ship that could travel back to all of the previous Inchie planets and then master the Bios and all other manners of things as well.  :)


I really don't know where it's going which is part of what's so exciting....does Kellhus really want the Tekne?  I can see that, but I can also see all of the other scenarios such as serving Mog, slaying Mog, saving the world, dooming the world, using the GO for good, leading the GO to its destruction, and even simply being completely insane.

ETA:  I love how the emoticons on this board are a little different than what I'm used to.  That's not a smiley face.  That's a neuropunctured smiley face.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:04:28 am
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
All the woman is not nearly all Nonmen.
I meant nearly killing all, not nearly killing all of...
Quote from: TTT Glossary
The plague struck shortly thereafter, almost killing males and uniformly killing all females.
Quote from: Madness
The Inchoroi's understanding of the Tekne was degrading before crashing on Earwa. The Inchoroi/Aurax had enough memory for it that, together with the Mangaecca, they figured out the No-God after a millenia of tinkering. After the No-God's destroyed, the Mangaecca labour again, without even that limited Inchoroi guidance for another 1700 years until they create Skin-Spies, new creations of the Old Science - leading Achamian to believe that they are close to the second advent of the No-God, on their own.

Quote from: WLW
They relearned the principles of the material, the Tekne.  They mastered the manipulations of the flesh. And after generation of study and searching, after filling Min-Uroikas with innummerable corpses, they realized the most catastrophic of the Ichoroi's untold depravities: Mog-Pharau, the No-God.

My bold. I doubt it's a question of trail and error more than a case of fulfilling certain time consuming requirements and finding difficult ' ingrediants.
Consider that at the time of TTT it is known (from tortured Skin Spies) that they have a score of years before the No-God is raised again.  Thus the Ordeal is launched after 20.

Quote from: Madness
Straightforward enough? Why would Kellhus' understanding of the Tekne not dwarf everyone else's?

Well, maybe.  But it is a science of the material, and did not help the Inchoroi, even at their peak, master the outside.  Apparently immortal, but moribund and doomed nevertheless.
Also, don't discount what Kellhus has already learned about the Tekne by torturing, studying and reverse engineering its products.

Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Curethan
Khellus has either grasped the Absolute or become polluted by TDTCB.

I can think of some arguments for you but you can't simply offer this as self-sufficient evidence...

Well, it seems self evident to me. 
He is either a self moving soul that is not beholden to causality, or he is part of history's flow and thus moved by some darkness.
The dunyain remove themselves from history for this reason.  You can't learn to come before everything whilst you are a part of it.

A self moving soul would be able to master all circumstance, which Kellhus seems able to do.  Grasping the Absolute would mean understanding the will of the God.

Quote from: Madness
Do you feel like Bakker's beaten this horse to death yet though ;)?

Lol, no.  But he's already got plenty of plot points through which to explore it.

Quote from: Madness
The series is going to disappoint someone... and it has to end somehow...

Please, don't misunderstand.
I am questioning the speculative line here and demeaning the apparent expectation of Kellhus being evil for evil's sake.
 
I'm sure Scott knows exactly what motivates Kellhus, I just haven't seen any reasonable speculation for his motives for such actions as suggested here.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:04:41 am
Quote from: coobek
Knowledge motivates him and the will to precede the circumstance, which without knowledge cannot be achieved I feel. He is after Tekne in my opinion and Consult.

But in what way is he after the Consult that is the question. Either to Kill or Dominate. But primarily to study. And so the story unravels.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:04:47 am
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Curethan
I am questioning the speculative line here and demeaning the apparent expectation of Kellhus being evil for evil's sake.

+1. No worries about the e-tone, Curethan. I'm probably more at fault.

Are not all our words, stories about ourselves?

I don't think anyone is expecting Kellhus to be evil for evil's sake. I think you are the first to use those words.

Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: WLW
They relearned the principles of the material, the Tekne. They mastered the manipulations of the flesh. And after generation of study and searching, after filling Min-Uroikas with innummerable corpses, they realized the most catastrophic of the Ichoroi's untold depravities: Mog-Pharau, the No-God.

My bold. I doubt it's a question of trail and error more than a case of fulfilling certain time consuming requirements and finding difficult ' ingrediants.
Consider that at the time of TTT it is known (from tortured Skin Spies) that they have a score of years before the No-God is raised again. Thus the Ordeal is launched after 20.

That's your prerogative. For my part, WHCB is inadmissible as speculative evidence, even less tangible than TTT Glossary. I guess, I should probably do some legwork on that someday.

Quote from: Curethan
Well, maybe. But it is a science of the material, and did not help the Inchoroi, even at their peak, master the outside. Apparently immortal, but moribund and doomed nevertheless.
Also, don't discount what Kellhus has already learned about the Tekne by torturing, studying and reverse engineering its products.

Kellhus might have learned everything - its not actionable. Golgotterath is the only place in the world with the equipement to use the Tekne practically. Sure, I suspect Kellhus could probably write a Master's Thesis on the Tekne...

Kellhus' intelligence would likely dwarf the Inchoroi's, even at their best?

Quote from: Curethan
Well, it seems self evident to me.
He is either a self moving soul that is not beholden to causality, or he is part of history's flow and thus moved by some darkness.
The dunyain remove themselves from history for this reason. You can't learn to come before everything whilst you are a part of it.

A self moving soul would be able to master all circumstance, which Kellhus seems able to do. Grasping the Absolute would mean understanding the will of the God.

You don't see these as simple claims, unfounded statements? Sure, they might sound good when you string them together but I don't actually think you are making an argument here.

The Dunyain are not self-moving souls. Its arguable that they are even successful in removing themselves from history.

Does Kellhus actually come before everything? Has he really mastered all circumstance or is he finally up against the circumstances that will actually test him? Grasping the Absolute means understanding the Gods?

Quote from: Curethan
Lol, no. But he's already got plenty of plot points through which to explore it.

Bakker hasn't augmented any human yet. Cnaiur/Kellhus are both good candidates. Elysium!
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:05:27 am
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
+1. No worries about the e-tone, Curethan. I'm probably more at fault.

Are not all our words, stories about ourselves?
I'm was only curious, neither bristled nor offended.  ;)

Quote from: Madness
I don't think anyone is expecting Kellhus to be evil for evil's sake. I think you are the first to use those words.

I am only clarifying my inference.  Contradict me, by all means.
At the least, the claim seems to be that he needs power so he can get more power.

As I understand it, Kellhus only seeks the power of sorcery after the consult is revealed.  As a tool, rather than an end in itself.

Quote from: Madness
For my part, WHCB is inadmissible as speculative evidence, even less tangible than TTT Glossary. I guess, I should probably do some legwork on that someday.

Fair enough.  I think the timetable for the No-god's return might have been mentioned elsewhere though.  As is the proposition that the Tekne is strictly a science of material propogation.

Quote from: Madness
You don't see these as simple claims, unfounded statements? Sure, they might sound good when you string them together but I don't actually think you are making an argument here.

The premises are the self moving soul and the darkness of causality.  Its an inductive arguement as far as I am concerned, based on the principle that the dunyain removed themselves from history in order to incubate the former.  Speculations aside, the dunyain quest does not brook the slightest contamination.  Those contaminated by the Darkness are eliminated.
Quote from: TDTCB
There they would die, as had been decided.  All those his father had polluted.
The most straightforward speculative explanation for Moenghus and Kellhus' exile over execution is that, as fully conditioned prodigies, they had enough potential to become SMS(self moving souls) despite contamination.
After Kellhus has his revelation and becomes 'more than dunyain' he either conditions the future or is conditioned by the past. 

Quote from: Madness
The Dunyain are not self-moving souls. Its arguable that they are even successful in removing themselves from history.

Nevertheless, their burgeoned power depends on the mastery of the principles of reason and logic rather than the accumulation of knowledge.
The progress they have made is based on the principles they follow. 
For example, knowledge of sorcery and the outside is considered an impediment, therefore it has been removed rather than grasped.
Again, other speculations are merely that.  In this case I'm proceeding from the data as presented.

Quote from: Madness
Grasping the Absolute means understanding the Gods?

Not the gods, the God as presented in Inrithi tradition.  I.e. immanent in history.  As explained by Serwa and Moe Jr to Sorweel.

...

Perhaps the above will serve to clarify my position, but I suspect I lack either some fundamental insight and/or the ability to properly express myself over this matter, so I will probably leave the discussion here.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:05:33 am
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Curethan
Nevertheless, their burgeoned power depends on the mastery of the principles of reason and logic rather than the accumulation of knowledge.
The progress they have made is based on the principles they follow. 
For example, knowledge of sorcery and the outside is considered an impediment, therefore it has been removed rather than grasped.
Again, other speculations are merely that.  In this case I'm proceeding from the data as presented.

As long as they exist in the world, the Dunyain can't really expect to create a closed system in Ishual, can they? Anything is a candidate for inclusion in circumstance, so wouldn't they want to master everything? I know Kellhus says that history is anathema to the Dunyain, but it is still a player so long as they exist.

If one did attain the absolute in seclusion, it would be tainted as soon as they came into the world.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:05:38 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Madness
However, the White-Luck Warrior is also trapped by his circumstance. The end result determines all of his actions, an inevitable line of events, lacking any personal agency, towards culmination.

It enables Kellhus certain divergent tangents in planning. He could ultimately fabricate the circumstances of the White-Luck Warrior's visions in his favour, provided he had enough knowledge.

Well, Yatwers vision, in plotting this. It depends how extensive her vision is?

Also it doesn't say very much about the free will of the Earwa people - shouldn't such a prediction be impossible to begin with, because someone with free will would just do something contrary to the prediction? The thugs in the alley just decide to give it a miss that day and so the WLW doesn't get his sword notched? Etc?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:05:44 am
Quote from: Meyna
Has there been a discussion about free will in Earwa? Does it exist there?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:05:49 am
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Curethan
Nevertheless, their burgeoned power depends on the mastery of the principles of reason and logic rather than the accumulation of knowledge.
The progress they have made is based on the principles they follow. 
For example, knowledge of sorcery and the outside is considered an impediment, therefore it has been removed rather than grasped.
Again, other speculations are merely that.  In this case I'm proceeding from the data as presented.

As long as they exist in the world, the Dunyain can't really expect to create a closed system in Ishual, can they? Anything is a candidate for inclusion in circumstance, so wouldn't they want to master everything? I know Kellhus says that history is anathema to the Dunyain, but it is still a player so long as they exist.

If one did attain the absolute in seclusion, it would be tainted as soon as they came into the world.

The idea as I understand it is to condition a closed system in order to develop the principles and techniques required to condition any system.
Ishual is like an egg.

The Absolute would be all encompasing by definition.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:05:54 am
Quote from: Madness
+1 Meyna. I don't think so... but many of us didn't think the Gods existed until TJE.

Damn... posting before I'm ready.

+1 Meyna, also, on the Dunyain cannot achieve the Self-Moving soul at Ishual. The Project is inherently flewred.

Quote from: Curethan
I am only clarifying my inference. Contradict me, by all means.
At the least, the claim seems to be that he needs power so he can get more power.

As I understand it, Kellhus only seeks the power of sorcery after the consult is revealed. As a tool, rather than an end in itself.

My claim would be... I'm not sure, that he seeks to master the variables that are capable of affecting fundamental change in the world?

Also, Kellhus seeks the Gnosis based on Moenghus being Cishaurim, before the Consult are discovered, if I recall correctly... but you might be right.

Quote from: Curethan
Fair enough. I think the timetable for the No-god's return might have been mentioned elsewhere though. As is the proposition that the Tekne is strictly a science of material propogation.

I'm not sure how that second statement is founded. In the WHCB excerpt you pulled there, it says the Mangaecca mastered the Tekne - lies, lies, and damned lies... I think its more than just materials that keeps them from reincarnating the No-God.

Quote from: Curethan
The premises are the self moving soul and the darkness of causality. Its an inductive arguement as far as I am concerned, based on the principle that the dunyain removed themselves from history in order to incubate the former. Speculations aside, the dunyain quest does not brook the slightest contamination. Those contaminated by the Darkness are eliminated.

...

The most straightforward speculative explanation for Moenghus and Kellhus' exile over execution is that, as fully conditioned prodigies, they had enough potential to become SMS(self moving souls) despite contamination.
After Kellhus has his revelation and becomes 'more than dunyain' he either conditions the future or is conditioned by the past.

The self-moving soul is impossible in Ishual... if anything, the Dunyain's "inclusive history" inside Ishual is more confounding than any history outside of its walls.

Also, your second paragraph there suggests that the Dunyain know that they can't achieve a self-moving soul in Ishual.

The most straightforward explanation would be that Moenghus and Kellhus are both sent into the world and conditioned by another, neh?

Quote from: Curethan
Nevertheless, their burgeoned power depends on the mastery of the principles of reason and logic rather than the accumulation of knowledge.
The progress they have made is based on the principles they follow.
For example, knowledge of sorcery and the outside is considered an impediment, therefore it has been removed rather than grasped.
Again, other speculations are merely that. In this case I'm proceeding from the data as presented.

+1... but sorcery is just a tool, a means, not an end. I'm not sure, Curethan, our reasonings strike awkwardly in my mind.

For instance, if the Onkis, let's say, is the Darkness then it would make sense that Kellhus has to master the Outside to become self-moving.

I just don't see how you don't see that the Tekne is a ready-made tool for Kellhus to do things with that no one, not even the Inchoroi at their best, could do...

Quote from: Curethan
Not the gods, the God as presented in Inrithi tradition. I.e. immanent in history. As explained by Serwa and Moe Jr to Sorweel.

I, personally, wouldn't take those two at their word.

Quote from: Curethan
Perhaps the above will serve to clarify my position, but I suspect I lack either some fundamental insight and/or the ability to properly express myself over this matter, so I will probably leave the discussion here.

No worries, Curethan, I feel the slight clashing too. It's all good. Deep breathes. I think your position is pretty clear - I just don't agree ;) - and neither do I think you lack insight or the ability to express yourself. But feel free to tap out. We're dreadfully off-topic anyhow :).
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:00 am
Quote from: Galbrod
Concerning the potential of Kellhus fabricating the circumstances surrounding the visions of the WLW... We could compare (a) the future stabbing of Kellhus by the WLW to the discussions concerning (b) the stabbing of Moenghus the elder by Kellhus at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. In the latter case, several have speculated on the possibility that Moenghus fabricated the circumstances surrounding the stabbing event in order to futher his cause.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:05 am
Quote from: Madness
Wow... incepted (Lol, that's actually a word... I was playing off Inception).

+1 Galbrod.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:09 am
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
No worries, Curethan, I feel the slight clashing too. It's all good. Deep breathes. I think your position is pretty clear - I just don't agree ;) - and neither do I think you lack insight or the ability to express yourself. But feel free to tap out. We're dreadfully off-topic anyhow :).

A conflict of assumptions, perhaps.  No problems, I'm more comfortable as a heretic than an iconoclast.   :twisted:

----

Tell you what though, the Tekne might come on very handy in foiling the WLW - get a Skin Spy or a clone to take the assassin's notched blade in Kellhus' stead.

Quote from: Meyna
Has there been a discussion about free will in Earwa? Does it exist there?

I believe the logos represents free will.  But I'm pretty much alone on that from what I remember of previous discussions,  ;)
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:16 am
Quote from: Madness
Inonoclast away :D!
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:25 am
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Meyna
Has there been a discussion about free will in Earwa? Does it exist there?

I believe the logos represents free will.  But I'm pretty much alone on that from what I remember of previous discussions,  ;)

I'm actually inclined to agree with you there. The goal of the Dunyain can be thought of in terms of free will. The Logos permits one to act in free will to different degrees, and attaining the absolute means that one has the ability to practice free will in all cases.

As for attaining a self-moving soul in Ishual, perhaps the strategy is, as Curethan suggested, to attain such a state in minimalist conditions first, and then extend it to more complicated systems until the conditioned system includes the whole universe.

The WLW could pose such a test for Kellhus, to see if he has conditioned a system with a complication at a level which is more complicated than dominating the typical players in the holy war, which is more complicated still than the bastion of Ishual. A stepping stone to the complicated system that is the Inchoroi and the Second Apocalypse.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:30 am
Quote from: Curethan
Indeed, Meyna.
The Circumfixion was the point where control over the variables escaped Moenghus.  The question is whether it defeated Khellus or empowered him.
I kinda saw that as the tipping point of obtaining the Absolute.

I like the idea of WLW and the machinations of the gods being the next level.

The consult themselves are striving for something different though, I think.  The antithesis of the self moving - the unmovable soul.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:35 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote
Tell you what though, the Tekne might come on very handy in foiling the WLW - get a Skin Spy or a clone to take the assassin's notched blade in Kellhus' stead.
Dune Dune Dune
Dune Dune
DuneDuneDuneDune
Quote

I believe the logos represents free will.  But I'm pretty much alone on that from what I remember of previous discussions,  ;)

hrrm, and here I was taking the logos to be God, and the universe to be the uttering of the logos.

Which if you think about it make the word of god, and the world basically the same thing.

Also has a nice meta thing going for it.  The word of God (RSB) when written down creates the world Earwa.  The writing of the book is the world, the world is the utterance.

In the Beginning was the Logos...
And the Logos was God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_(Christianity)
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:40 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
The Logos is whatever you see when the water clears, when you finally get rid of all the mud.

The soul/mind is a muddy pool, your thoughts rising to the surface from unseen depths. The water is the mind/soul itself. The mud is all the stuff that clutters it up and stops you seeing the bottom, the place where your thoughts come from: The silts of history, the filth of superstitious fears, the clinging ooze the Buddhists call 'attachment to worldly things', and so on.

The point of enlightenment is to clear the water by removing the mud.

But you cannot know what you'll find at the bottom until you get there. Buddhists think it's compassion (Inrau thinks it's Onkis). The Dunyain, like some in our world, seem to think it's rational self-interest. Other people call it 'God'. Any or all of these things might just be their own sort of obscuring mud.

Kellhus, as a Dunyain, already threw out the mud of compassion. His time on the Circumfix seems to have broken him of his attachment to rational self-interest. As he told his father, "I am more [than Dunyain]".

Maybe he's found the real bottom. Or maybe not. Maybe there is no bottom, merely layers and layers of different sediments all the way down, each one a revelation. Maybe God is the mud. Or the water.

This is only the Second Apocalypse, after all. You expect the whole Truth to be seen with only two unveilings? Even exotic dancers get seven!
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:46 am
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Meyna
The WLW could pose such a test for Kellhus, to see if he has conditioned a system with a complication at a level which is more complicated than dominating the typical players in the holy war, which is more complicated still than the bastion of Ishual. A stepping stone to the complicated system that is the Inchoroi and the Second Apocalypse.

+1. But does that mean the White-Luck Warrior is a favour to Kellhus, making sure he is, in fact, ready?

Quote from: Curethan
The Circumfixion was the point where control over the variables escaped Moenghus.

...

I kinda saw that as the tipping point of obtaining the Absolute.

Tackling as parts.

Firstly, I don't think the variables escaped Moenghus and I think he showed his hand, and, perhaps, Kellhus' first false rationalization.

Quote from: Madness
I will just repost from the Cishaurim thread[/u] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/cishaurim-t1193485.html), what I think is my main piece of evidence for Moenghus playing Kellhus in their conversation in TTT.

"I bear a message from your Father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.'" p.579, TWP

[This is Hifanat ab Tunukri of Moenghus' sect of Cishaurim - he also mentions this nugget: "We see you. All of us." ... "All of us who serve him - the Possessors of the Third Sight."]

"Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable ... This," the eyeless face said, "was where the Probability Trance failed me..." p.338, TTT LE

[This if one of the few times that Moenghus "validates" what Kellhus describes as Moenghus' Journey. I think Moenghus is lying.]

"How," his father finally said, "could you know this?"
"Because I know why you were compelled to summon me."
Scrutiny. Calculation.
"So you have grasped it."
"Yes ... the Thousandfold Thought." p. 340, TTT LE

[This ends a chapter, a revelatory moment, and Moenghus, from Kellhus' perspective, acts surprised by what is not new knowledge.]

Moenghus lied to Kellhus in TTT and Kellhus seems deceived by this.

"His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it." p.374, TTT LE

Except it seems the Conditioned Ground was Moenghus' that day. In TWP, he explicitly lets his son know that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought but then, in the conversation in TTT, he does not mention it until Kellhus does, even though he knows Kellhus has indeed grasped the Thought.

Secondly, wouldn't Kellhus' apokalypsis on the Circumfix indicate an initial level of grasping revelation, like Meyna suggests, rather than total comprehension?

- lockesnow

Quote from: lockesnow
Dune Dune Dune
Dune Dune
DuneDuneDuneDune

(click to show/hide)

EDIT: On that note, what would happen if they made a Grasping Ritual out of Kellhus' heart!?

+1 for Thoughts, Duskweaver.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:06:54 am
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: lockesnow
In the Beginning was the Logos...
And the Logos was God
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_(Christianity)

But in the beginning of all life there is a water. WATER!

Go Meppa!
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:07:01 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Duskweaver
The Logos is whatever you see when the water clears, when you finally get rid of all the mud.

The soul/mind is a muddy pool, your thoughts rising to the surface from unseen depths. The water is the mind/soul itself. The mud is all the stuff that clutters it up and stops you seeing the bottom, the place where your thoughts come from: The silts of history, the filth of superstitious fears, the clinging ooze the Buddhists call 'attachment to worldly things', and so on.

The point of enlightenment is to clear the water by removing the mud.

But you cannot know what you'll find at the bottom until you get there. Buddhists think it's compassion (Inrau thinks it's Onkis). The Dunyain, like some in our world, seem to think it's rational self-interest. Other people call it 'God'. Any or all of these things might just be their own sort of obscuring mud.

Kellhus, as a Dunyain, already threw out the mud of compassion. His time on the Circumfix seems to have broken him of his attachment to rational self-interest. As he told his father, "I am more [than Dunyain]".

Maybe he's found the real bottom. Or maybe not. Maybe there is no bottom, merely layers and layers of different sediments all the way down, each one a revelation. Maybe God is the mud. Or the water.

This is only the Second Apocalypse, after all. You expect the whole Truth to be seen with only two unveilings? Even exotic dancers get seven!

This is all very well thought out and it makes me ponder quite a bit.  Where I think this perhaps has a built in limitation is that it is all about the Me and the I.  One of the keys Kellhus decides in TTT is that 'they are not equal' following the path of rational self interest is not equal to keeping alive the whole world because if the cost of the latter is the former, then the former should be sacrificed to the latter.  Spock. Wrath of Kahn. 

And I think that plays into Bakker's comments that he feels like one of the great failings of literature is how the community around elite literature, the community around elite philosophy are insular little Ishual communities.  They are "advancing" but only in an extremely limited--perhaps crippled--sense because their advancement is contingent upon being cut off from the world.  Literature is no longer out in the world.  Philosophy is no longer out in the world.  And Bakker is quite clear that he thinks these approaches mean the long term extinction (or irrelevance) of both.

In this sense, we could perhaps see the Dunyain's mission when isolated from the world as a failure.

That in other words, The limitations of the Logos as you outlined it seem to eliminate the concept of being part of a community in favor of the advancement of the one. 

I'm wondering if maybe the Logos is not just self-enlightenment but community-enlightenment.

And that concept of community-enlightenment sort of plays into another of Bakker's pet projects of how the Singularity will be another information revolution ala the renaissance, industrial revolution, and information/computer revolution.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:07:06 am
Quote from: Madness
+1 Extended Metaphor :).
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:07:11 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
David Hume, the Buddha, and some cognitive psychologists like Bruce Hood, would claim that the self is just more obscuring mud. So it's not really "all about the Me and the I". ;)
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:07:15 am
Quote from: Curethan
Mystical interpretations indeed.  The notion of the logos is certainly widespread and varies widely.

But RSB's definition of the Earwan Logos appears to be more straightforward;
Quote from: TTT Glossary
Logos-
The name used by the Dunyain to refer to instrumental reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_reason).  The Logos describes the course of action that allows for the most efficient exploitation of one's circumstances in order "to come before", that is, to precede and master the passage of events.
and here;
Quote from: Cujara Cinmoi
Before the First Apocalypse the Dunyain were a heretical community of Kuniuric ascetics (originally based in Sauglish) who sought enlightenment (the Absolute) through the study and practice of reason (the Logos). They were a young movement, but they had already suffered sporadic persecution for some time. But since the Kunniat faith practiced by the High Norsirai was not hierarchical, no concerted effort was made to punish their atheism.

(my bold - wiki-link on the first one)

For me, enlightenment (the Absolute) comes through mastery of reason (the Logos) that enables one to come before everything.
Quote from: tDtCB
If it is only after that we understand what has come before, then we understand nothing. Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything.
—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

If Kellhus' diatribe to Akka is true and all men share a fragment of the soul of the God of Gods, then grasping the God and achieving the Absolute are the same thing.
Then the question becomes whether that is more transformative to the enlightened individual or the world at large.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:07:20 am
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Curethan
If Kellhus' diatribe to Akka is true and all men share a fragment of the soul of the God of Gods, then grasping the God and achieving the Absolute are the same thing.

+1, Curethan.

I just don't share your opinion that Kellhus is necessarily there yet - especially not as of the Circumfixion.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:07:26 am
Quote from: coobek
Nah he is, paraphrasing one thread here, a lying lier that lies, he is after Tekne and to Condition the Consult.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:07:31 am
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
I just don't share your opinion that Kellhus is necessarily there yet - especially not as of the Circumfixion.

There are quite a few more 'ifs' along the way before we get there.  ;) 
I'm quite happy if you see the possiblity of my speculitive reasoning.  Because thats all it is.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:07:36 am
Quote from: Madness
There's a neat passage from TWP that first made me think of this proposition that you've nicely articulated. I'll have to quote it later.

+1
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: mrganondorf on May 24, 2014, 01:11:34 pm
- wow, wilshire, i had not seen the similarities between the probability trance and what the wlw sees, kudos!
- the idea that the gods can be summoned into the world, lends credence to the idea that the world is a kind of anchor to reality that can draw anything in, even the god/nogod?
- agree with meyna, anything the dunyain do that seems to be totally dunyain, could be entirely skewed by the Outside without their knowledge

- does the tusk look like one of the horns????
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: SilentRoamer on May 24, 2014, 03:06:44 pm
Probably looks similar. I cant remember if the Inchoroi gave it to Men or if they just added to it. Can anyone clarify?
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: mrganondorf on May 24, 2014, 04:50:09 pm
Probably looks similar. I cant remember if the Inchoroi gave it to Men or if they just added to it. Can anyone clarify?

I think this is the interview where Bakker says the Inchoroi gave the Tusk to men:
http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

I keep wondering if it's a bomb or something.  Maybe the No-God came south because the it wanted to add the Tusk to the Carapace, the last piece or something.  Like in that Conan movie.
Title: Re: WLW and Kell
Post by: Wilshire on May 25, 2014, 03:31:31 am
Probably looks similar. I cant remember if the Inchoroi gave it to Men or if they just added to it. Can anyone clarify?

The Inchoroi gave the entire Tusk to the 5 tribes, and also added the verse about the nonmen. So they did both :P