The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: H on May 01, 2015, 02:31:01 pm
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“My wife,” he groaned, testing the mettle of his chains for the first time. “Iëva!”
“Has committed...” one of the ancient mouths warbled.
“Such crimes...”
“What was her price...” he coughed. “Tell me!”
“She sheeks only...” the bloody one bubbled.
“To save her soul...”
This is a quote from Chapter 1 of TUC. Indeed, it had me thinking of why did Iëva betray? After reading that part, I thought she traded Nau-Cayûti for "salvation" but then I stumbled back upon one of Akka's dreams:
Through closed eyes he watched her, Ieva, his wife of seven years, scurry naked to the cabinet across their spare room and produce a philtre, which she considered with an expression hung between terror and gloating. She turned to him, her face thin and cruel.
"How she will weep," she growled, "the filthy whore... And I will see it, and savour it, the breaking of her heart when she learns her beloved Prince has died in his wife's arms!"
He tried to call out as she leaned above him, holding the black tube with medicinal care. But he was sleeping and could not move.
"But you will not die, my heroic husband. Oh no! For I will fall upon your corpse, and I will wail-wail-wail, claiming to the Bull Heavens that you demanded to be buried rather than burned—like a Nonman!"
He tried to spit the foul liquid she poured between his teeth. He tried to reach up and out, seize her pale neck...
"Oh my husband!" she cried in a whisper. "My dear-dear husband! How could you not see the grudge I hold against thee? But you will know it, soon enough. When you are delivered, when you are beaten and broken—then you will know the compass of my spite!"
She doesn't seem very concerned with her soul here. She seems very concerned with someone else, so I went back and dug up this:
Then, in 2140, Nau-Cayûti’s beloved concubine, Aulisi, was abducted by Sranc marauders and taken to Golgotterath. According to The Sagas, Seswatha was able to convince the Prince (who was once his student) that she could be rescued from the Incû-Holoinas, and the two of them embarked on an expedition that is almost certainly apocryphal. Mandate commentators dispute the account found in The Sagas, where they successfully return with both Aulisi and the Heron Spear, claiming that Aulisi was never found. Whatever happened, at least two things are certain: the Heron Spear was in fact recovered, and Nau-Cayûti died shortly after (apparently poisoned by his first wife, Iëva).
So, the Mandate are almost certainly lying. Aulisi did come back and seemingly, it drove Iëva to murder Nau-Cayûti. Or did Aulisi directly drive Iëva to it? Perhaps she was made into a sleeper agent? Is that perhaps why the Mandate pretend she was never brought back from the Ark?
Also, it is clearly premeditated that she would deliver him to the Consult, by not allowing him to be burned, so there must be more than just vengeance toward Aulisi and Nau. Perhaps the Consult offered her shelter from the damnation that would surely come from exacting such vengeance.
[crackpot]Lastly, possibly purely coincidental, but Aulisi's name is nearly an anagram of Aisralu from Four Revelations. Interestingly enough, changing a U to an I. Possibly a connection that Aulisi is part non-Man? Is this why Iëva seems to angrily put "like a Nonman!" into her admonishment of Nau?[/crackpot]
Sound off and let me know how far off I am.
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Good catch!
While NC might have had more than one concubine, it would be really lame if the "filthy whore" Ieva refers to *isn't* Ausili. So it makes sense that Ieva would trade her hated husband to the Consult in return for the means of avoiding the horrible consequences.
I'm not, however, convinced that it means she was rescued. I always figured that the "disputes" were based on first-hand accounts from Seswatha's Dreams -- that's the only hidden knowledge the Mandate specifically would have.
What if Ausili wasn't rescued but remained a prisoner of the Consult? Then they offer Ieva not only the opportunity to kill her husband and avoid damnation, but also get to rub it in Ausili's face?
Cold-blooded.
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Why can't she have both of these as her motivations?
Maybe she was desperately looking for a way to save her soul for a long time, and then along comes the Consult bird-man and gives her a deal with the devil - she'll be saved from damnation if she poisons her husband and hands him over to Golgotterath. Maybe she's ambivalent about this whole thing at first...but when Nau-Cayuti comes home with his troo luv that he just rescued, totally neglecting his wife, it gives Ieva that final push.
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Clearly nc brought back a cunoroi female rather than his concubine, and elevated her above ieva. The sagas confusedly combine the two, and ses is hiding the truth behind denial.
After all, her father did push her into the PIT. What else but golgotteroths well of the aborted?
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I suppose it's also a deconstruction of the heroic fairytale in its own way - Prince Charming sneaks into the lair of evil to rescue Rapunzel from the rape-aliens, but once they get home, the Princess gets jealous and hands him back to Golgotterath where he gets raped forever.
Clearly nc brought back a cunoroi female rather than his concubine, and elevated her above ieva. The sagas confusedly combine the two, and ses is hiding the truth behind denial.
After all, her father did push her into the PIT. What else but golgotteroths well of the aborted?
Where is this "well of the aborted" thing from?
I've heard the phrase bandied around on this forum, but can't remember ever seeing it in the books.
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I believe it is mentioned during Nau-Cayuti and Seswatha's journey into Golgotterath in TTT, but I could be wrong about.
No clue where the whole "her father pushed into her into the pit" part comes from, though...
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I suppose it's also a deconstruction of the heroic fairytale in its own way - Prince Charming sneaks into the lair of evil to rescue Rapunzel from the rape-aliens, but once they get home, the Princess gets jealous and hands him back to Golgotterath where he gets raped forever.
Clearly nc brought back a cunoroi female rather than his concubine, and elevated her above ieva. The sagas confusedly combine the two, and ses is hiding the truth behind denial.
After all, her father did push her into the PIT. What else but golgotteroths well of the aborted?
Where is this "well of the aborted" thing from?
I've heard the phrase bandied around on this forum, but can't remember ever seeing it in the books.
"well of the aborted" is mentioned somewhere in the flashbacks of Ses and NC, so near end of TTT and i think in the same flashback where they take a bath from the lake in the Ark
love what you said about the subverted fairy tale
strange alternatives?
-Aulisi is the one who returned from Golgotterath, bringing with her the Heron Spear. NC died in the attempt and Aulisi happened upon a helpless hopeless wizard on the way out
-Ieva needed to save her soul because she was a witch! 1. she craves power 2. she learns sorcery from the funny bird 3. plus bird can teach sorcery minus damnation (pending mog) 4. Ieva helps get rid of NC 5. mog dead 6. only way for Ieva to live on is to join with Shauriatus wad...
-Ieva is No-God. Aulisi is No-God. Nau-Cayuti and Aulisi are the No-God, both trapped inside the carapace which tortures and heals them, forcing them to stare in each other's eyes without blinking, both forced to learn minor cants to bruise their souls, both sealed inside just far enough from the external chorae so that they salt and heal continuously
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when NC and Ses get to the city within the Ark, wow there's a lot of humans in there. the Consult will totally be able to breed huge populations of warriors and sorcerers and whatever else
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Well, if Aulisi didn't actually come back, why Iëva so intent upon having her see he with Nau at his funeral? If she was still at the Ark, she wouldn't see her until much later and there'd be no reason to say that as such.
I admit, I am prone to read far into the nuances of speech, so I probably often draw the straws from essentially little...
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Just because Aulisi didn't come back, doesn't mean Ieva won't see her again. Ieva is in contact with the Consult, if Aulisi is still held prisoner, she can see her despair in Golgotterath, or wherever it is they rendezvous. Ieva never says when/where she will see Aulisi's heart break, only that she will weep when she learns [note not sees] that he "died in his wife's arms". That thought just gets tied up in "I will wail-wail-wail" which is also not technically at the funeral but probably in the bedroom the next day, but these are separated by paragraphs and can, and I think should, be considered separately.
This knits together both timelines.
As for Shae tell him what her price was, he probably just gave him the answer that would be at once most confusing and most hurtful.
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I think that is fair analysis and also the most probable explanation.
One question though would be, what is the meaningfulness of the disagreement between the Saga, claiming Aulisi returned and the Mandate, claiming she did not?
The most simple explanation would probably be that the Sagas just want Nau to seem more heroic. I can't help but feel there is more too it though.
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There's only one other mention of a a dispute between the Sagas and and Mandate scholars:
At the Battle of Skothera, the Sranc hordes are crushed by General En-Kaujalau, though he died of mysterious causes within weeks of this victory (according to The Sagas, he was another victim of Iëva and her poisons, but again this is disputed by Mandate scholars)
This seems like another case of embellishment on the part of The Sagas' authors, except in this case, it was to make Iëva seem even more villainous. Again, the Mandate know better via the Dreams.
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Maybe the Mandate didn't lie. Maybe the dreams they received were wrong on this instance.
Is Seswatha censoring dreams?
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The most simple explanation would probably be that the Sagas just want Nau to seem more heroic. I can't help but feel there is more too it though.
...This seems like another case of embellishment on the part of The Sagas' authors, except in this case, it was to make Iëva seem even more villainous.
I tend towards thinking that their Sagas, which are purported as history, read more like The Odyssey or the Bible.
Maybe the Mandate didn't lie. Maybe the dreams they received were wrong on this instance.
Is Seswatha censoring dreams?
I find this possibility terrifying.
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Maybe the Mandate didn't lie. Maybe the dreams they received were wrong on this instance.
Is Seswatha censoring dreams?
I tend to think that something we think we know is terribly wrong. So much of what we know from the dreams and the Isphyrus comes from one source Seswatha. If some of that wasn't edited I would be shocked. With Akka's new dreams I fully expect some of the sagas to be vindicated.
"he who controls the past, controls the future."
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Maybe the Mandate didn't lie. Maybe the dreams they received were wrong on this instance.
Is Seswatha censoring dreams?
I tend to think that something we think we know is terribly wrong. So much of what we know from the dreams and the Isphyrus comes from one source Seswatha. If some of that wasn't edited I would be shocked. With Akka's new dreams I fully expect some of the sagas to be vindicated.
"he who controls the past, controls the future."
definitely! maybe Seswatha is trying to cover some 1 or more monstrous sins--did Seswatha get NC killed on the way in or out of the Ark? Maybe Seswatha was helping the Consult in the early stages of No-God development untile Seswatha was overwhelmed with the realization of how awful salvation really would be
as penance, Seswatha sets up the Dunyain, fuses his soul with the remaining Sohonc, and lives in the depths of the 1000 1000 halls directing the Pragmas
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Well, with what we know of Seswatha, I think it is pretty probable that there is a great deal hiding just beyond the dreams. We already know he was sleeping with the the Queen, Sharal, which leads to the idea that Nau being his son is probable.
Then there is what we don't know, which is, how did he escape the Ark? How did he escape the The Wall of the Dead? Why build Attrempus if it wasn't going to be important?
I think when they say, "no one escapes Golgotterath" they are being absolutely truthful. No one does ever escape, just some are allowed to leave.
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I think when they say, "no one escapes Golgotterath" they are being absolutely truthful. No one does ever escape, just some are allowed to leave.
I just thought that was a folksy way of saying that people have PTSD and lose their minds.
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I think when they say, "no one escapes Golgotterath" they are being absolutely truthful. No one does ever escape, just some are allowed to leave.
I just thought that was a folksy way of saying that people have PTSD and lose their minds.
Well, it still certainly is a good question, how did Seswatha actually get away with the Heron Spear? Part of me wants to believe they just let him take it, but any reason why they would do that completely eludes me. I guess he really did escape.
That would be twice he got away from the Consult. Once from the Ark and the second from Mekeritrig on the Wall of the Dead...
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Yeah, seems somehow unlikely. Some foul play is afoot. Seswatha actually part of the Consult? Ok, maybe thats a bit of a leap, but still there certainly seems like there is something...
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Considering the circumstances we see of Seswatha hanging on the Wall, he had to have somehow sweet-talked Mek into letting him go. What leverage would he have had though?
It also seems to me that he was sleeping with Celomomas' wife as a way of manipulating him too though. Perhaps that is reading too far into it, but are we to believe Ses actually loved her?
My feeling though is that somehow Seswatha is "playing all the sides against the middle." What I don't know is, what is the middle in this case? Mutual annihilation? What is all this misdirection playing out toward?
Lets pretend that Ses did send the Dunyain to Ishual, the two things we know about Ishual that are special is it's secret location and it's status as Cel's "seed bank." I don't think either of those are incidental in them being sent there. It would seem to be that Ses is setting up to try to make the Celmomian Prophecy true. He sets up a group to make sure the Anisurimbor line is continued. He sets up a group to constantly carry the word of the prophecy forward (the Mandate). He knows the Consult will always be there.
Why do this? I think Seswatha wants the Second Apocalypse to happen. I think the misdirection is that everyone is trying so hard to prevent an outcome, that they are unwittingly actually causing it to happen. If the Second Apocalypse is the Semantic Apocalypse, Earwa is set to lose all that "makes it special." I think this is Seswatha's end-game, no one will win, the game itself will be destroyed.
Not sure if any of that is lucid enough to make real sense...
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Considering the circumstances we see of Seswatha hanging on the Wall, he had to have somehow sweet-talked Mek into letting him go. What leverage would he have had though?
It also seems to me that he was sleeping with Celomomas' wife as a way of manipulating him too though. Perhaps that is reading too far into it, but are we to believe Ses actually loved her?
My feeling though is that somehow Seswatha is "playing all the sides against the middle." What I don't know is, what is the middle in this case? Mutual annihilation? What is all this misdirection playing out toward?
Lets pretend that Ses did send the Dunyain to Ishual, the two things we know about Ishual that are special is it's secret location and it's status as Cel's "seed bank." I don't think either of those are incidental in them being sent there. It would seem to be that Ses is setting up to try to make the Celmomian Prophecy true. He sets up a group to make sure the Anisurimbor line is continued. He sets up a group to constantly carry the word of the prophecy forward (the Mandate). He knows the Consult will always be there.
Why do this? I think Seswatha wants the Second Apocalypse to happen. I think the misdirection is that everyone is trying so hard to prevent an outcome, that they are unwittingly actually causing it to happen. If the Second Apocalypse is the Semantic Apocalypse, Earwa is set to lose all that "makes it special." I think this is Seswatha's end-game, no one will win, the game itself will be destroyed.
Not sure if any of that is lucid enough to make real sense...
wow, awesome post H!!!
unrelated--the way the story is going, the reader is inclined to think that the Mandate have the false and or incomplete story while Akka is getting the real thing. R Sly Bakker could be setting us up for a twist: Akka is just experiencing more lies. RSB harps on ignorance so much i wonder if he's going to be bringing Akka to a point where Akka believes that Akka is super justified in believing X and then X is completely disproved in the end
like Akka becomes utterly convinced that Kellhus is trying to become the Uber-Mog and brings the Heron Spear to kill him, kills him, as Kellhus dies it becomes apparent that Kellhus really did want to save the world and Akka just saved the Consult or some such
also "Ieva" to make post relevant
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Great post H. I've read it se real times now and, at first, I really liked the idea but now I'm not so sure.
Seswatha was seemingly instrumental in stopping the first apocalypse, so why force the second?
One possible explication for that would be for him to be working with Shae, as an ally, rather than a mortal enemy, then, the mandate and the skin spy hate towards Chiara is all misdirection. They needed the 2nd apoc, but they needed everyone to belive in the struggle between the two sides, between good and evil, to truly bring it about.
Seems like a. It of a stretch, but there are enough hard truths in there for me to accept it.
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Great post H. I've read it se real times now and, at first, I really liked the idea but now I'm not so sure.
Seswatha was seemingly instrumental in stopping the first apocalypse, so why force the second?
One possible explication for that would be for him to be working with Shae, as an ally, rather than a mortal enemy, then, the mandate and the skin spy hate towards Chiara is all misdirection. They needed the 2nd apoc, but they needed everyone to belive in the struggle between the two sides, between good and evil, to truly bring it about.
Seems like a. It of a stretch, but there are enough hard truths in there for me to accept it.
Well, I'm not really throwing this down at as Factual. Just more of a feeling I had.
The idea of why he would prevent the first and actively presue a second, is that the first was absolutely on the Consult's terms. They dictated how it would happen and so were poised to reap the rewards (i.e. avoid damnation). The way Seswatha (if he has in fact actually done this) is more to engineer a total loss, i.e. a total sundering of the system that allows even the possibility of a Consult victory.
This prevents there being a Thrid, Fourth, Fifth, etc. because otherwise, do you think the Consult would just give up, simply because it didn't work the second time? What better way to make sure your opponent can't win the game, other than breaking the board? It's scorched earth to another level entirely. You win the game by not by out playing your opponent, when you opponent is immortal and insanely driven, but by making sure your opponent doesn't get to play. The plan isn't victory, it's denying your opponent victory.
Keep in mind, this Second Apocalypse, who has brought it about? Because it was not A&A, nor Shae as far as we can tell.