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Messages - Bolivar

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76
Good to be back. I had a job change last summer and some other hobbies took over as TGO discussion waned but I couldn't stay away as we collectively forfeit our sanity in a few weeks!

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77
You could reconcile the inconsistencies if it was one of the Inchoroi who had been scattered to the far corners of the earth, as Esmenet reads in the Sagas in TTT. It posed as Husyelt and bestowed the Tusk but later died, leaving A&A still as the last two, remaining in the Ark.

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78
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Meppa's Future Role?
« on: December 20, 2016, 07:07:11 pm »
I expect Meppa is coming North with Kellhus and whoever he takes with him (Esmenet, Kelmomas, etc), for the tactical advantage of having a sorcerer without a mark. Given the timing of the Consult disappearing lining up roughly with the birth of Fanimry, maybe there's some connection there which would make the last Cishaurim indispensable for the Ordeal.

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79
General Earwa / Re: Bakker and Tolkien
« on: December 06, 2016, 08:05:20 pm »
Thanks Wilshire!

I kinda put it all out there so I'm not sure if there's anything specific I'd want to focus on. It all actually reads like an incoherent mess now that I've come back to it after a few months so maybe some revising is in order.

80
Introduce Yourself / Re: Ohi
« on: October 28, 2016, 09:12:27 pm »
Glad to have ya.

Tbh, I was expecting something else when you said you were going to show us your Dunyain stick.

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81
General Misc. / Re: Middle East
« on: October 28, 2016, 09:10:01 pm »
I don't necesarily think anyone is surprised, we've been dealing with Islamic terrorism since decolonization and at least here in America, it's been a big part of the news cycle for many years now.

What is new about ISIS is how there doesn't appear to be a goal or a greater political aspiration, they really just want to kill as many people who aren't like them as possible. I've read that the average fighter doesn't understand much about Islam or its philosophy, they really are simply looking for an outlet to hurt people.

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82
The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO Spoilers) Son of the Survivor
« on: October 03, 2016, 04:24:10 am »
I'm with the mindset that the Survivor's son wasn't defective because of any emotional or physical stunting - just that a Dunyain could look at him and for any number of reasons decide that he wasn't going to make it through the program.

I like the posts distinguishing him from the other Dunyain outside of Ishual. Unlike Kellhus and Khoringas, he's not subjected to the Wilderness after a lifetime dedicated to the Logos. And unlike Kelmomas, he wasn't born into a world already worshipping him as divine. There's definitely the possibility that he has more potential than the other Anasurimbor characters we have, despite any perceived defects.

I'm hoping Kellhus brings Esme and Kelmomas to the other characters in the Ordeal for how epic the Akka & Esme reunion would be. But now I'm thinking the Kelmomas and Survivor's Son confrontation would be even more epic.

83
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers]Kellhus, savior or not?
« on: September 28, 2016, 03:14:42 pm »
Isn't he calling Proyas his most beautiful slave.
Yes, the "it" in the passage is referring to Kellhus.

84
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers]Kellhus, savior or not?
« on: September 26, 2016, 04:07:29 pm »


One thing to keep in mind is that everything Kellhus says to someone else is intended to manipulate, so it can't necessarily be taken at face value. Only his interior thoughts portray his true intentions and beliefs - and even then he could be deluding himself.

For me it's the narration as much as what Kellhus says to Proyas. Calling him/itself as the one who burns the fields, the repeated use of "Place" and calling him its most beautiful slave suggest he's submitted to whatever it is he began fearing at the end of TTT.

85
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers]Kellhus, savior or not?
« on: September 22, 2016, 06:53:41 pm »
This seems to be the end of that exchange:

Quote
I tend the fields …
  A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
  And burn them.
  The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
  “The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
  Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
  The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
  “Then Heaven is not sane.”

It sounds like Kellhus has given himself over to a kind of dark insanity. I've also never heard the language of becoming place so strongly used since the flashback to the trials at Ishual at the end of the Darkness that Comes Before. It almost seems like he's completely stamped out  the remaining fragments within to become the pure embodiment of the Dunyain mission. I don't think he's a savior - he's already put too many nations to the sword and ordered too many atrocities to be carried out in his name. I don't think he cares at all about damnation, so long as it doesn't get in the way of achieving the Absolute and awakening the god.

86
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The Parts Appalling
« on: September 21, 2016, 07:11:07 pm »
Reading TJE just now, Mimara does mention that "Good men shine brighter than good women" - this seems an offhand indication that she has seen people that aren't damned, though she wasn't sure exactly what it was during that passage.
Snakes are saved too.

87
The Great Ordeal / Re: Reading TTT, this passage stood out [TGO spoilers]
« on: September 17, 2016, 09:59:19 pm »
Everything he's done seems to parallel what he said to his father and more so the vision he describes afterwards of the Three Seas collapsing and the premeditated disasters ("this is a good thing"). I agree that it won't play out exactly that way, it'll be something unexpected and all the more terrifying for it. Kellhus might not join the Consult but it's likely he will try to subjugate them the same way he's done everyone else. That would be the ultimate domination IMO.

88
General Earwa / Re: Bakker and Tolkien
« on: September 16, 2016, 04:13:58 pm »


Quote
At each of these junctures, the characters resolve to take matters into their own hands

So what were they doing before those moments?

Going with some overall flow?

Maybe it's anti individualistic?

Always an ironic position for the lone author to take

"Taking matters into their own hands" was probably a bad choice of phrase. It's not necesarily anti-individualistic because they aren't expressing any kind of individualism at all - they're merely rationalizing their submission to base impulses, to advance their self-interest at the expense of others. In terms of the Second Apocalypse, it exposes the illusion of selfhood, because they are merely a machine reacting to circumstance and opportunity. This is why Tolkien describes Sauron and his surrogates as nothingness and explicitly distinguishes them from the simplicity of pure evil.

89
General Earwa / Re: TSACast (SA Podcast)
« on: September 14, 2016, 04:50:26 pm »
Yeah I think it was the first thing I asked about when I got on. I bought this fancy LED fan monitor for the front of my PC case but the audio quality seems really weak. I might just have to use different ports next time.

Sorry I sabotaged it!

90
General Earwa / Re: Bakker and Tolkien
« on: September 10, 2016, 02:33:04 am »
I've been meaning to write this for quite some time but I kept putting it off because I knew it would be a long one. As I mentioned in the reading thread, I capped off our Second Apocalypse reread by going through Lord of the Rings again, in the time leading up to The Great Ordeal. After reading the two in such close proximity, I have to agree with Parsh that the differences come across more than the similarities. I've seen a lot of criticism that TSA is arguably too derivative of Dune and LotR but I've come to believe the series genuinely stands on its own - there's just too many scenes, characters, and themes that simply couldn't exist in Herbert's or Tolkien's writings. That said, I think Bakker ultimately uses the same narrative frame as LotR: an internal moral struggle set against the backdrop of a fantasy apocalypse.

Much like The Second Apocalypse, the Lord of the Rings is fundamentally about the conflict between meaning and nothing.

I think it's a misconception that the legions of Mordor are the primary antagonists - evil resolves itself in Tolkien's world with its fractious, self-deating narcissism. Although Sauron is the titular character of the trilogy, he never once physically enters the narrative. Similar to how many theologians view the devil, he isn't a material personification of evil but rather he exists as rationalization, the way we trick ourselves into pursuing our own interests at the expense of others. There are several key plot points upon which the fate of the world truly hinges and it isn't the climactic battles but rather the struggle within the ranks of the protagonists. Tolkien time and again returns to a technique wherein he places characters at moral crossroads and they visualize the consequences of their actions. Whenever this happens, it's a red flag for the reader as to what's really going on and it reveals itself in these key events:

1. In the barrow downs, where Frodo is the only Hobbit who awakens and he considers escaping to save himself and doom his friends to the wights.
2. In Lothlorien, where Frodo offers the ring to Galdriel and she sees herself becoming the Queen of Middle Earth.
3. At the hills/waters of Parth Galen and Amon Hen, where Boromir tries to take the ring from Frodo, becoming a powerful king in his own right.
4. Twice at Isengard, first when Saruman reveals his alliance with Sauron and again when he entreats Gandalf to come into the tower so they can discuss how to set the world to rights.
5. All throughout the Minas Tirith arc, where Denethor refuses the counsel of his allies and eventually resolves to euthanize himself and his son.
6. The series climax inside of Mt. Doom, where Frodo ultimately fails the quest and resolves to keep the ring for himself.
7. Throughout the entire narrative, when the Shire Hobbits, Wizards, Elves, Ents, Rohirrim, and undead army are reluctant to confront Sauron and Saruman out of their own mistrust for eachother.

At each of these junctures, the characters resolve to take matters into their own hands, under the rationale that what they are doing is somehow earned, righteous, just, in the interest of the greater good, or otherwise the only reasonable course of action. While all of these motives masquerade under the guise of meaning, purpose, and reason, the reader in fact knows these are empty rationalizations covering their pure, base, and animalistic impulse. Tolkien is intentionally invoking the nihilistic implications of Bentham's Calculus, Freud's Pleasure Principle, Nietzche's Will to Power, and Darwin's Survival of the Fittest. In Bakker's terms, it's the biological mechanism which often attenuates his Blind Brain Theory.

Tolkien explicitly uses the same words when describing the Eye of Sauron and the Windows of Minas Morgul as Bakker does to describe the Consult and its skin spies - a gaze into oblivion, nothingness and void. While Tolkien vehmently denied his works were an allegory for World War II, I personally believe they were at least a subconscious parallel to his experience in World War I, where grand boasts of nationalism and ideology were in fact a mask for the last gasp of imperialism. Much like the fractious Orcs of Mordor, WWI was a self-defeating venture, as it ultimately triggered the collapse of every participant's government and directly led to the decolonization of the third world.

Quote
The tracks between whim and brutality are many and inscrutable in Men, and though they often seem to cut across the impassable terrain of reason, in truth, it is reason that paves their way. Ever do Men argue from want to need and from need to fortuitous warrant. Ever do they think their cause the just cause. Like cats chasing sunlight thrown from a mirror, they never tire of their own delusions.

^ This is the opening to the first chapter of The Judging Eye and I believe it encapsulates what TSA and LotR are truly about.

TLDR:

Christopher Tolkien once explained that his father was writing about the evil of what he called "the machine," the way people execute their will over nature and each other. So to bring it all together, I believe Tolkien was warning us about the morally destructive consequences of mechanized civilization in the 20th century and that Bakker took up his watch against the same threat as we embark on posthumanism in the 21st century. However, The Lord of the Rings ultimately argues that morality is in fact real, that there is more to humanity than self-interest and biological function. At this point, I'm not sure we'll get the same hopeful conclusion to The Second Apocalypse. Even if we don't, I nevertheless hold that Bakker has already succeeded, and will continue to succeed, in providing insights into ourselves as we continue on the perilous path technology has laid out for human civilization.

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