[TGO Spoilers]Kellhus, savior or not?

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Parsh

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« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2016, 01:52:05 am »
I just finished reading the ARC version of this thread and I've read this one earlier in the week. People debating whether Kellhus is a savior or not, the extent of his humanity/emotions and listing examples from the books got me to thinking about Akka crashing Kellhus's coronation at the end of the first trilogy. I guess I always thought (when I did think deeply at all about it) that Kellhus let Akka leave and live because of some kind of human connection/fondness for him, probably due to wishful thinking and my own natural inclination to want it to be that way. Does anyone else think that could have been a factor, or did Kellhus see his usefulness as a future tool far outweighing any threat he posed and was in total rational power strategist mode, with no emotion playing a part?

While I like something of Somnambulist's conjecture above, it might be as simple as, at the time, Kellhus couldn't risk stopping or otherwise refuting Achamian in his crowning moment, lest he risk Achamian disenchanting those assembled.

I'd kind of put these two together: if Kellhus acts like he lets Achamian go free out of compassion, out of fondness, what's the implied message? "Poor, misguided Achamian... my beloved teacher... jealousy has blinded him." By directly confronting the accusations, he would appear weaker. Instead, it's like "these assertions are so clearly false that I need not bother." And only later will the state and religious apparati clamp down, once the vast, vast majority are already on-board.

And besides all that, Kellhus is probably still pretty sure he can either ignore him or reel him back in. And what does, in fact happen? Akka marginalizes himself by retreating into hermitage and, as we later see, starts to come back around to the possibility of Kellhus as the savior.

It seems clear in retrospect that Kellhus needed Esmenet too much to give her back--none of his other lovers ended up bearing any successful children (though I'm still a bit baffled as to how Kel could figure that out). And it seems possible that, in the end, he'll have his cake and eat it too, getting E's womb and (just maybe?) get Achamian back on his side as well.

We'll see. But to the original question, I find my self leaning toward the idea that Kellhus is, in some sense, a savior. To be clear: I do think there are all kinds of reasons to believe otherwise, but my heart says savior. Of course, I couldn't tell you, at this moment, whether or not that heart has an eye unnaturally grafted onto it. Point being: what do I know?

mrganondorf

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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2016, 04:38:43 pm »
@ Dont Skal Me Bro - Oooh nice parallel with the coronation!  Could be that TUC ends with some kind of obscene Coronation of The Most Damned or something (or the attempt to be coronated).


@ Somna - Thinking of Madness' theory that the characters will realize that they are in a story and Saubon's thing about having to play roles in the scripture that will be written, yeah, I think Kellhus is manipulating Akka from afar, setting him up for some role.  The prime role in Jesus' drama (besides Jesus) is Judas, but i don't know if Akka will be a Judas.  I guess it could work like this--Akka finds the heron spear, Akka and Mimara see Kellhus as No-God, Mimara's eye opens and sees that Kellhus is holy, Akka says 'fuck it' and kills Kellhus anyways (for Esmi). 

Or there might come a crucial moment when Akka finds Kellhus and the Consult evenly matched and Akka goes against his own statement that he hates the Consult more; Akka tips the balance, Kellhus dies, world lost.  From TTT-Kellhus asks Moe what hate could be so great?  Akka's.  If Kellhus has sent Akka to Ishual, it might be to condition Akka to start hating the Consult more than the AE.  Seeing the Dunyain home overrun might be the thing (intended) to get Akka to start hating right again (from Kellhus' pov).  Did Kellhus tip the Consult off about where Ishual was?  He definitely had a chance to stop the information that flowed from Cnaiur to Akka and others. 
I bet the Vizier position is more of an administrative expediency.


If Kellhus is aiming to disenchant the world, lock the gods and the Outside out, then maybe Bakker will be writing some scifi books.  Setting is Earth 2050.  Technology is awesome and then whoops, the ancient barrier cracks and the gods reinvade the world.  Crazed for hunger they run rampant across our solar power fields.  The New Dunyain emerge from somewhere in the Himilayas.  They've developed the meta-meta-meta-gnosis in theory for the moment that magic was once again possible.  An Anasurimbor emerges at the end of the world.

MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2016, 10:15:01 pm »
Call me the crazy guy who think Kellhus has feelings, but I think he genuinely like Akka and also respected him that he seen through his manipulations. I don't think the kneel part will be Akka kneeling to swear his allegiance again. Rather, kneeling to a dying Kellhus and having a little heart to heart, so to say.

I don't think Akka is manipulating or controlling Akka from afar. My bet is on a combo of Seswatha and Anagke. There is a fate for Akka and the Whore is leading him to his fate. Like the quote from Mimara about thinking they are on their own journey, but are just caught up in Fate. She says it's not even worth fighting anymore.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

The Sharmat

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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2016, 10:16:41 pm »
The trial has broken him.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2016, 04:07:43 am »
Call me the crazy guy who think Kellhus has feelings, but I think he genuinely like Akka and also respected him that he seen through his manipulations. I don't think the kneel part will be Akka kneeling to swear his allegiance again. Rather, kneeling to a dying Kellhus and having a little heart to heart, so to say.

I don't think Akka is manipulating or controlling Akka from afar. My bet is on a combo of Seswatha and Anagke. There is a fate for Akka and the Whore is leading him to his fate. Like the quote from Mimara about thinking they are on their own journey, but are just caught up in Fate. She says it's not even worth fighting anymore.

Kellhus def has feelings--what makes him super interesting is how epically in control of himself he is until... this has got to be a big deal in TUC.  Bakker is going to burden Kellhus so much that the humanity will appear.

TUC 11:35 "Kellhus wept."

MisterGuyMan

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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2016, 04:29:00 pm »
Bakker loves to invert common tropes or present them with such realism and complication that it seems a a gross caricature to the reader.  Kellhus is the prophesied chosen one that will save humanity from damnation.  I have no doubt he's still that basic archetypical trope.  Salvation in this instance might be completely inverted too though and I doubt this will be a traditional happy ending.

Count me as a Zauduyani.

JRControl

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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2016, 05:39:54 pm »
Maybe Kellhus will completely burn down the granary eh?
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

H

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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2016, 02:12:43 pm »
I don't know specifically why, but Kellhus definitely has a use for Akka.

Just to keep stirring up the bubbling cauldron that is my crack-pot, I have puzzled over this time and time again.  Why let Akka go free?

Now that I have fully dived off the edge and into my own brew, I will spice this with the idea that The Voice (recall, it is my position that TTT is directed by Kellhus himself, from the Outside, outside time) has told him to leave Akka alive.  In that The Voice knows that he has a role to play, but Kellhus himself, Inside, within time, has no real idea why he is doing such.  Only that he will return to him, and "kneel."
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 04:43:16 pm »
I don't know specifically why, but Kellhus definitely has a use for Akka.

Just to keep stirring up the bubbling cauldron that is my crack-pot, I have puzzled over this time and time again.  Why let Akka go free?

Now that I have fully dived off the edge and into my own brew, I will spice this with the idea that The Voice (recall, it is my position that TTT is directed by Kellhus himself, from the Outside, outside time) has told him to leave Akka alive.  In that The Voice knows that he has a role to play, but Kellhus himself, Inside, within time, has no real idea why he is doing such.  Only that he will return to him, and "kneel."

He needs Akka to get Mimara to Golgoterreth to look upon Kkelllhus and the No-God with the JE.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2016, 05:12:36 pm »
He needs Akka to get Mimara to Golgoterreth to look upon Kkelllhus and the No-God with the JE.

And I think we can take it a step further.  He needed Mimara to run to Akka, because Akka would impregnate her and "cause" her to have the Judging Eye.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

JRControl

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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2016, 05:13:42 pm »
Wouldn't an easier solution be to bend her mind Dunyainly and teleport her in when you need her? Sperm is not hard to come by. (oh snap)
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

H

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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2016, 05:20:41 pm »
Wouldn't an easier solution be to bend her mind Dunyainly and teleport her in when you need her? Sperm is not hard to come by. (oh snap)

Easier?  Yes.  But it might not work.  We have no idea why Akka being the baby daddy means she has the Judging Eye.  Kellhus being the baby daddy probably wouldn't work, otherwise he'd probably have just done it.  It might also be that she wouldn't have the Judging Eye is she was coerced. 
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2016, 05:39:15 pm »
He needs Akka to get Mimara to Golgoterreth to look upon Kkelllhus and the No-God with the JE.

And I think we can take it a step further.  He needed Mimara to run to Akka, because Akka would impregnate her and "cause" her to have the Judging Eye.

Yea, I'm really liking Kellhus as the guy in the visions and The Voice. What's scary though is that Kellhus tells Proyas that The Voice is mad, and he doesn't listen to it anymore.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2016, 07:07:07 pm »
Yea, I'm really liking Kellhus as the guy in the visions and The Voice. What's scary though is that Kellhus tells Proyas that The Voice is mad, and he doesn't listen to it anymore.

When does he say he stopped listening?  He only says he ceased to trust the Visions...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Bolivar

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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2016, 06:53:41 pm »
This seems to be the end of that exchange:

Quote
I tend the fields …
  A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
  And burn them.
  The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
  “The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
  Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
  The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
  “Then Heaven is not sane.”

It sounds like Kellhus has given himself over to a kind of dark insanity. I've also never heard the language of becoming place so strongly used since the flashback to the trials at Ishual at the end of the Darkness that Comes Before. It almost seems like he's completely stamped out  the remaining fragments within to become the pure embodiment of the Dunyain mission. I don't think he's a savior - he's already put too many nations to the sword and ordered too many atrocities to be carried out in his name. I don't think he cares at all about damnation, so long as it doesn't get in the way of achieving the Absolute and awakening the god.