The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Cuttlefish on December 13, 2017, 09:09:27 pm

Title: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 13, 2017, 09:09:27 pm
I've been thinking about the Prophecy lately, and two questions emerged. First of all - who was the Anasurimbor at the end of the world? Is it an Anasurimbor yet to "happen" like the crab handed boy or Kayutas; was it Kellhus, or was it Kelmomas?

Secondly, the Prophecy was told to Celmomas by his son Nau-Cayuti, who was IIRC "riding with the Gods". This is interesting, because the last book revealed that Nau-Cayuti was exposed to the Inverse Fire, converted to Consult and merged with the No-God. So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas? Was it the No-God/Nau-Cayuti, was it the gods themselves or was Nau-Cayuti's soul ultimately saved and redeemed?
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 13, 2017, 11:25:00 pm
Wow, loaded question Cuttlefish.

The Anasurrimbor that was showed during the dream, through Celmommas was Kellhus. No, Kelmommas is who became the No-God, hence the end of the world. But, since the Gods was not in the Golden Room, I figure them, plus the whole of Earwa believe Kellhus is the No-God.

If you reread the dream at the end of TGO, NC was not converted, or even seemed to be bothered by the IF. He was simply shoved in the Carapace. And, he worked.

As far as who gave the prophecy to Celmommas, we have two choices.

1: Ajokli, though I'm not to sure about this. People always go back to the four horns. Because of the four horns.

2. Gilgoal: who I think to be who it was. Two reasons. One, after giving the prophecy, Gilgoal took Celmommas the same way Yatwer took Sorweel. As, Celmommas was an adherent to Gilgoal. Two, four horns. I think Ajoki has four horns coming out his head. I believe Gilgoals four horns are apart of his crown. I could be wrong, that's my interpretation.

3: Almost forgot this. In the Golden Room, the mutilated make a remark that Ajokli is hiding from the other 100. So, I can't see Ajokli forewarning Celmommas about that end of the world.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 13, 2017, 11:38:43 pm
I've been thinking about the Prophecy lately, and two questions emerged. First of all - who was the Anasurimbor at the end of the world? Is it an Anasurimbor yet to "happen" like the crab handed boy or Kayutas; was it Kellhus, or was it Kelmomas?

Secondly, the Prophecy was told to Celmomas by his son Nau-Cayuti, who was IIRC "riding with the Gods". This is interesting, because the last book revealed that Nau-Cayuti was exposed to the Inverse Fire, converted to Consult and merged with the No-God. So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas? Was it the No-God/Nau-Cayuti, was it the gods themselves or was Nau-Cayuti's soul ultimately saved and redeemed?
I want to think it was Gilgaöl sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 13, 2017, 11:43:21 pm
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I want to think it was Gilgaöl sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.

+1

That's more or less the same as what I was trying to convey.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 13, 2017, 11:51:59 pm
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I want to think it was Gilgaöl sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.

+1

That's more or less the same as what I was trying to convey.
Right, I somehow missed most of your post and said the exact same thing.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 14, 2017, 12:57:19 am
If you reread the dream at the end of TGO, NC was not converted, or even seemed to be bothered by the IF. He was simply shoved in the Carapace. And, he worked.

I made the monumental mistake of buying the book off of Kobo, which allows me to authorize it for only one device that I don't have with me, so I can't actually check the book right now (fucking hell Kobo) but I vaguely remember the Consult Dunyain mentioning to Kellhus that Nau-Cayuti too was converted by the Inverse Fire. The dream sequence from TGO takes place before this, while he was still being taken to Golgoterrath after his death is faked. As I understand, he was taken there and tortured, but this did not break him, so he was taken to the Inverse Fire, which did, and shoved into the Carapace.

As far as who gave the prophecy to Celmommas, we have two choices.

1: Ajokli, though I'm not to sure about this. People always go back to the four horns. Because of the four horns.

2. Gilgoal: who I think to be who it was. Two reasons. One, after giving the prophecy, Gilgoal took Celmommas the same way Yatwer took Sorweel. As, Celmommas was an adherent to Gilgoal. Two, four horns. I think Ajoki has four horns coming out his head. I believe Gilgoals four horns are apart of his crown. I could be wrong, that's my interpretation.

3: Almost forgot this. In the Golden Room, the mutilated make a remark that Ajokli is hiding from the other 100. So, I can't see Ajokli forewarning Celmommas about that end of the world.

But how could any of the Gods warn Celmomas about the end of the world, when they themselves can't understand it? Unless it is the literal end of the world, in which case, I don't think it's safe to say that the Anasurimbor of the Prophecy has been revealed as the world, well, still exists.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2017, 09:30:58 am
Quote from:  Cuttlefish
But how could any of the Gods warn Celmomas about the end of the world, when they themselves can't understand it? Unless it is the literal end of the world, in which case, I don't think it's safe to say that the Anasurimbor of the Prophecy has been revealed as the world, well, still exists.

The way its been interpreted to me, and its backed up in the books (I will go in further detail later as I don't have much time), is that the 100 can see all of time. Its like they know what will happen and when. They see time as (linear I believe, could be wrong, not my strong suit.), so they knew Kellhus would be involved in the end of the world. And, from their point of view (the Gods) time must stop. Does it mean the end of the world, or the end of the Gods (100)? Your guess is as good as mine.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: H on December 14, 2017, 12:01:56 pm
This all presumes that it really was Nau-Cayuti who appears to Celmommas.  Akka's vision gives us the perspective that perhaps it was not though and was Kellhus somehow creating his own prophecy.  Admittedly that doesn't make much sense, but neither does Nau-Cayuti being able to appear to Celmommas, seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 14, 2017, 12:36:46 pm
seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
Metaphysical ramifications of which are not at all clear.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2017, 12:55:25 pm
Quote from:  H
This all presumes that it really was Nau-Cayuti who appears to Celmommas.  Akka's vision gives us the perspective that perhaps it was not though and was Kellhus somehow creating his own prophecy.  Admittedly that doesn't make much sense, but neither does Nau-Cayuti being able to appear to Celmommas, seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.

K. Here's how I look at it. Gods can see all of time, yet can't see the NO-God (NC&Kel). But, the do see Kellhus and blame him for the end of the world because he is central to it all. Its like during the 1st Apocalypse when the Gods blamed it all on men and their wars. They had no clue that the TNG and his Tekne weapons were apart of it. Same deal, methinks.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: H on December 14, 2017, 01:07:17 pm
seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
Metaphysical ramifications of which are not at all clear.

Most definitely unclear to say the least.  I mean, Kellhus being able to appear to Celmommas doesn't make sense, but neither does NC is my only point.  We can argue which is more probable, but in the end both things are obviously "outside the norm."

K. Here's how I look at it. Gods can see all of time, yet can't see the NO-God (NC&Kel). But, the do see Kellhus and blame him for the end of the world because he is central to it all. Its like during the 1st Apocalypse when the Gods blamed it all on men and their wars. They had no clue that the TNG and his Tekne weapons were apart of it. Same deal, methinks.

I don't disagree with any of that, generally.  My only point was that we don't really know how the Prophecy came to be, if it was somehow NC or somehow Kellhus, or somehow maybe even Ajokli.  It's all bound up in some really unintuitive time shenanigans.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2017, 01:14:48 pm
The words of the prophesy, which should probably be noted:
"One of my seed will return at the end of the world" - Celmomas referring to the vision we finally see in TUC
and:
"No Seswatha, that burden, they say, is yours" - Celmomas tells Seswatha that the end of the world is when Seswatha dies.

So your two questions:
1) Who?
In TUC we see that its literally Kellhus that is being shown to Celmomas. Not sure what further room for interpretation there is.
Also note that whoever it is is simply the harbinger - the sign that the world will end soon - not the literal end. From there, imo, its fairly inconsequential which Anasurimbor is the harbinger. If you want it to be Crab-Hand, or Moenghus Sr., or anyone in-between/before/after, it doesn't really matter.
The prophesy foretells of the end of the world (ie Anasurimbor will return), and it also says when (When Seswatha dies). Of those two clauses, the Anasurimbor returning seems largely inconsequential to me.

2) So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas?
IMO, I think its Ajokli.
Probably interesting to note that much of the confusion might be coming from the fact that until that scene where we saw the god in TUC, Bakker hadn't decided who it was. I say that not to use Bakker as supporting evidence either way, but to point out that there are references in the text for it being either Gilgaol or Ajokli throughout. Sound arguments can be made for either case.
It being Ajokli fits better into my overall view of the narrative, so unless I overturn most everything in my head regarding the story, I'll be sticking with that :) .

As for  Nau-Cayuti's soul - I tend to think that Celmomas was dying rapidly of bloodloss and likely going into shock and/or in extreme pain. A grieving father on his deathbed. I don't think the Gods showed him anything regarding Nau.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2017, 03:27:00 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
In TUC we see that its literally Kellhus that is being shown to Celmomas. Not sure what further room for interpretation there is.

Sorry to be picky, but that was TGO.

Quote
The prophesy foretells of the end of the world (ie Anasurimbor will return), and it also says when (When Seswatha dies). Of those two clauses, the Anasurimbor returning seems largely inconsequential to me.

Which interests the he'll out of me, because Seswatha still lives through Akka, probably Serwa and maybe a handful of other Mandati...

Quote
2) So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas?
IMO, I think its Ajokli.
Probably interesting to note that much of the confusion might be coming from the fact that until that scene where we saw the god in TUC, Bakker hadn't decided who it was. I say that not to use Bakker as supporting evidence either way, but to point out that there are references in the text for it being either Gilgaol or Ajokli throughout. Sound arguments can be made for either case.
It being Ajokli fits better into my overall view of the narrative, so unless I overturn most everything in my head regarding the story, I'll be sticking with that :)

I can see where your coming from. But, I think people confuse the four horns of Ajokli, with the four horns on the crown Gilgoal wears. Plus, as I said earlier, Gilgoal took Celmommas as Yatwer took Sorweel, as a faithful adherent to the God, Gilgoal.

Quote
As for  Nau-Cayuti's soul - I tend to think that Celmomas was dying rapidly of bloodloss and likely going into shock and/or in extreme pain. A grieving father on his deathbed. I don't think the Gods showed him anything regarding Nau.

Agree 100%. Celmomas completely misinterpreted, because of his love for Nayu and hoping Nayu loved him back. A lot lost in translation between Seswatha and Celmommas.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 14, 2017, 03:52:40 pm
Most definitely unclear to say the least.  I mean, Kellhus being able to appear to Celmommas doesn't make sense, but neither does NC is my only point.  We can argue which is more probable, but in the end both things are obviously "outside the norm."
The way I see it, this dream takes the cake in being completely unclear. So far we can't say for certain if it gives us new information, contradicts the information available previously, both, or neither.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: H on December 14, 2017, 04:50:22 pm
I can see where your coming from. But, I think people confuse the four horns of Ajokli, with the four horns on the crown Gilgoal wears. Plus, as I said earlier, Gilgoal took Celmommas as Yatwer took Sorweel, as a faithful adherent to the God, Gilgoal.

Well, Quint actually pointed out on Facebook that we really don't have any explanation of what Gilgaöl looks like.  At best we get told that the Nansur saw a 4 horned shadow of Cnaiür and this meant he was possessed by Gilgaöl, i.e. War.  However, consider that it is just as likely that Cnaiür is possessed by Ajokli, i.e. Hate.

We do get a cryptic mention in TWP, chapter 5, to "Gilgaöl, One-Eyed War" and the vision that Celmomas sees actually has two eyes.  Not much to draw though, since we have nothing to corroborate either side.  However, do consider though, Celmomas admits to surprise that Gilgaöl would still favor him: "Gilgaöl, War, come to claim him … Come to save, despite everything."  Consider though, in asking Seswatha to forgive him he belies the strained relationship between then, and so that who actually appears to Celmomas could be Ajokli, "rewarding" Celmomas for his hatred of Seswatha...
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 14, 2017, 05:13:24 pm
I asked Bakker about it in the AMA and he responded with this "The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.". This answer doesn't make any sense though and I'm wondering if he misread my question.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2017, 05:28:13 pm
I asked Bakker about it in the AMA and he responded with this "The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.". This answer doesn't make any sense though and I'm wondering if he misread my question.
Misdirection - he's the (T)rickster. Classic non-answer though :P
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 14, 2017, 08:16:13 pm
As for  Nau-Cayuti's soul - I tend to think that Celmomas was dying rapidly of bloodloss and likely going into shock and/or in extreme pain. A grieving father on his deathbed. I don't think the Gods showed him anything regarding Nau.

Now, this is very plausible explanation, but also a highly undramatic one. My own wee little guess is that the series, at the time Celmomian Prophecy was written, wasn't planned that far ahead, so Bakker wasn't resolved on the idea that Nau-Cayuti wasn't dead and instead became the No-God, so he wrote him as if he had died and gone with the Gods; but there might be more to it. I don't think it's just Gods tricking Celmomas or him dreaming. It really was Nau-Cayuti, or another Anasurimbor who resembled him enough that Celmomas thought it was him...

One who gets to ride with the Gods, outside Earwa's spectrum of time...

Hmm...

Yeah, I think it's Kellhus, who is going to become a literal God eventually in the series, and cause the Prophecy. But it's doubtful whether Celmomian Prophecy was actually neccessary for Kellhus's rise to power - if it didn't exist, Achamian would've still been surprised at seeing an Anasurimbor, and would still have been possessed by Kellhus regardless of any prophecy convincing him of Kellhus's prophetiness. Still, since it happened, it has to happen.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2017, 08:21:34 pm
Could be that the true legacy of the Celmomian Prophesy was that it lead Seswatha to do the whole thing with the Heart and the Dreams. Only in the absence of those things would Kellhus showing up to the Three Seas have been more underwhelming...

Eh, but even then, Kellhus is still Kellhus. Even if he was thrown in prison with Cnaiur - well Moenghus Sr. did fine without the benefit of his name so it would have probably shaken out similarly regardless. These 'what if' scenario's get confusing quick.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: H on December 14, 2017, 08:55:46 pm
Could be that the true legacy of the Celmomian Prophesy was that it lead Seswatha to do the whole thing with the Heart and the Dreams. Only in the absence of those things would Kellhus showing up to the Three Seas have been more underwhelming...

Eh, but even then, Kellhus is still Kellhus. Even if he was thrown in prison with Cnaiur - well Moenghus Sr. did fine without the benefit of his name so it would have probably shaken out similarly regardless. These 'what if' scenario's get confusing quick.

Sure but lets not forget that Moe Sr. failed.  If Kellhus does not gain the Gnosis, then his power is greatly diminished and he probably fails too.  It was really only through the overwhelming power he gains from the Meta-Gnosis can he actually conquer the whole Three Seas, which is what makes the Ordeal possible.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2017, 09:02:19 pm
True, but he probably could have started with the anagogis. From there he could still learn the gnosis by either making that leap himself to some kind of gnosis-lite and then onto to the gnosis proper by subsuming the Mandate in some way.

If no Kellhus, Moenghus wins the holy war by a large margin and the only schools left are basically the Cishaurim and the Mandate.

Things might have worked out better with true son Kellhus spending most of the Holy War squirreled away in a prison somewhere in Sumna, breaking out, learning all the sorcery while Maithanet and Moenghus subsume the three Seas. Then there's this great Father/Son team that takes on the consult...

its just such a rabbit hole there's little use in such an exercise lol.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 14, 2017, 09:06:10 pm
Speaking of rabbit holes, you seem to have assumed that it was a given that Kellhus could learn magic; but as I understand it, there is no order to who is one of the Few and who isn't. It's more than likely that in Moenghus's plan, Kellhus was never meant to become a god-like wizard, but rather the ruler of the material world by possessing the empire that'd be born after the Holy War; it's also likely that Moenghus knew nothing of the Celmomian Prophecy.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2017, 10:09:53 pm
Quote from: Cuttlefish
Speaking of rabbit holes, you seem to have assumed that it was a given that Kellhus could learn magic; but as I understand it, there is no order to who is one of the Few and who isn't. It's more than likely that in Moenghus's plan, Kellhus was never meant to become a god-like wizard, but rather the ruler of the material world by possessing the empire that'd be born after the Holy War; it's also likely that Moenghus knew nothing of the Celmomian Prophecy.

Both are false. Moe was banking on Kellhus chosing the Gnosis. Remember Maithanet wrote Proyas a letter to make sure Akka was accommodated at any cost. It stunned Proyas. Gnostics was always part of the TTT and Akka was always meant to be his tutor.

And, is bet the house that almost everyone on Earwa new of the Celmommian prophecy. The prattle of crazy schoolmen and their ghosts. It was not a secret.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 14, 2017, 10:15:01 pm
Quote from: Cuttlefish
Speaking of rabbit holes, you seem to have assumed that it was a given that Kellhus could learn magic; but as I understand it, there is no order to who is one of the Few and who isn't. It's more than likely that in Moenghus's plan, Kellhus was never meant to become a god-like wizard, but rather the ruler of the material world by possessing the empire that'd be born after the Holy War; it's also likely that Moenghus knew nothing of the Celmomian Prophecy.

Both are false. Moe was banking on Kellhus chosing the Gnosis. Remember Maithanet wrote Proyas a letter to make sure Akka was accommodated at any cost. It stunned Proyas. Gnostics was always part of the TTT and Akka was always meant to be his tutor.

And, is bet the house that almost everyone on Earwa new of the Celmommian prophecy. The prattle of crazy schoolmen and their ghosts. It was not a secret.

But how did Moenghus know that Kellhus was one of the Few?

And I doubt the Celmomian Prophecy is that common; I don't think I remember any character mentioning it other than the Schoolmen. Certainly, nobody reacts with the same dread as Achamian did when Kellhus introduces himself as an Anasurimbor. In any case, it's also unlikely that Moenghus, who was more of an orthodox Dunyain compared to Kellhus, would've believed in a prophecy - at no point does he imply that he has lost faith in the principle of before and after.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2017, 10:32:35 pm
1) a given, I believe the few can recognize the few. Its a good question, I will say that. But, everything in PoN adds up to Kellhus gaining the gnosis.

2) In PoN they go on and on about the ramblings of mandate schools and the Consult. Proyas and Xinemus both knew what Akka thought when he first heard the name Anasurrimbor. And, Mandati went all over the Three Seas preaching the return of the Consult and I'm sure the Prophecy came about much. To me, it felt like common knowledge, especially among nobility. T hats how I took it.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 14, 2017, 10:49:16 pm
Quote from: Cuttlefish
Speaking of rabbit holes, you seem to have assumed that it was a given that Kellhus could learn magic; but as I understand it, there is no order to who is one of the Few and who isn't. It's more than likely that in Moenghus's plan, Kellhus was never meant to become a god-like wizard, but rather the ruler of the material world by possessing the empire that'd be born after the Holy War; it's also likely that Moenghus knew nothing of the Celmomian Prophecy.

Both are false. Moe was banking on Kellhus chosing the Gnosis. Remember Maithanet wrote Proyas a letter to make sure Akka was accommodated at any cost. It stunned Proyas. Gnostics was always part of the TTT and Akka was always meant to be his tutor.

And, is bet the house that almost everyone on Earwa new of the Celmommian prophecy. The prattle of crazy schoolmen and their ghosts. It was not a secret.

But how did Moenghus know that Kellhus was one of the Few?

And I doubt the Celmomian Prophecy is that common; I don't think I remember any character mentioning it other than the Schoolmen. Certainly, nobody reacts with the same dread as Achamian did when Kellhus introduces himself as an Anasurimbor. In any case, it's also unlikely that Moenghus, who was more of an orthodox Dunyain compared to Kellhus, would've believed in a prophecy - at no point does he imply that he has lost faith in the principle of before and after.
I think the frequency of the Few is much higher among the Dûnyain, and Moënghus probably gambled on that.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2017, 11:35:30 pm
I think i know how Moe knew. Kellhus is one of the few. I could be wrong, and correct me if I am, but the dreams Moe sent to Ishual. I think both the sender and the receiver have to be of the few for the Cants of Calling to work. And, I agree with Tleilaxu, Kellhus and Anasurrimbor's are subject or have a disposition to being the few.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 14, 2017, 11:53:35 pm
My own theory was also that it was something to do with the dream he sent to Kellhus at Ishual; but this is all a huge gamble on Moenghus's part. If the Cant doesn't work on those who don't possess talent for magic, and Kellhus wasn't of the Few - what then? Was he just going to try to think of another Dunyain who might possess the Holy War he was conditioning, until hitting one who happened to be of the Few? Doesn't seem like a Dunyain-esque plan. And I don't think we can say for a fact that Anasurimbors have an inclination towards being of the Few; of Kellhus's children, only one (and not the one that possessed most of the strength) had the talent. (I think Kelmomas had it too, right?)

But I think the notion of a Great Ordeal led by one who is not of the Few has merit. After all, didn't Kellhus beget a child from Esmenet as a contingency; a child that was not of the Few? Even without mastering the metaphysical, a Dunyain's power over the world is spectacular, and could possibly move Schools of magic to do his bidding against the Consult (which is what I expected Kellhus to do, but no, he wanted to solo them).

Another interesting thing to consider is whether Maithanet was one of the Few. I imagine there has been a dedicated thread to this before, and I don't remember if it was conclusively established whether he was or not; Achamian thought so in their first encounter because Maithanet could tell that he was a Schoolman, but in retrospect, he could've just read it off of his face.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2017, 11:57:04 pm
Yes, Mathenet was one of the few. Few recognizes the few.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 15, 2017, 12:00:33 am
Eh, but even then, Kellhus is still Kellhus. Even if he was thrown in prison with Cnaiur - well Moenghus Sr. did fine without the benefit of his name so it would have probably shaken out similarly regardless. These 'what if' scenario's get confusing quick.

Also, thinking on this, consider the fact that Kellhus knew for a fact that the Dunyain would end up possessing the Consult. True, some are weaker than others (like the ones the Survivor mentions, that were overwhelmed and just stopped functioning when the Consult besieged Ishual), but for the most part, there is nothing in the material world that the Conditioned can't conquer.

Anyway, I am getting really off topic with these. The question is, why was it Nau-Cayuti that spoke to Celmomas at his death? There are three possibilities, to sum up what was suggested:

a) It's the Gods speaking to him as if they are Nau-Cayuti. I don't see why the Gods would do that, though, it's not like they care to manipulate him or appease a dying man. They're not that nice.

b) He is just imagining it. Doesn't seem dramatic enough to be true; in fiction, stuff like this has to fit together.

c) It really was Nau-Cayuti. Which then raises the question - how did his soul end up there after becoming the No-God?

d) It was Kellhus or another Anasurimbor. We'll need more info on this before believing it, though.

Also consider that Celmomas considers the things Nau-Cayuti says as being "sweet", IIRC. He might consider it sweet because it confirms his line won't die out, or because the implication is that it is an Anasurimbor that will save the world.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 15, 2017, 12:05:50 am
Yes, Mathenet was one of the few. Few recognizes the few.

Ahem, at the risk of going further off-topic, I dug the scene out:

"But before any word could be spoken, hands guided the Prince, still staring, to one side, and Achamian found himself looking into the serene and surprisingly youthful face of Maithanet. The multitudes roared, but an uncanny hush had settled between the two of them. The Shriah’s face darkened, but his blue eyes glittered with . . . with . . . He spoke softly, as though to an intimate: “Your kind are not welcome here, friend. Flee.” And Achamian fled. Would a crow wage war upon a lion? And throughout the pinched madness of his struggle through the hosts of Inrithi, he was transfixed by a single thought: He can see the Few. Only the Few could see the Few."

Now, consider the fact that Achamian doesn't know about the Dunyain and their talents. Even though he was Worldborn, Maithanet could read faces well; he exposed the spies of the Emperor, he exposed skin-spies. It is entirely possible that he knew Achamian was of the Few because he could read it from his face, and Achamian, unaware that it was possible, thought he must be of the Few.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2017, 12:08:33 am
My opinion is B. It was the imagination of a dying father.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 15, 2017, 01:16:54 am
No, it explicitly stated in the text that Maithanet can see the few and even Proyas knows this. Ain't got time but if you need me to I will quote.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2017, 12:50:49 pm
No, it explicitly stated in the text that Maithanet can see the few and even Proyas knows this. Ain't got time but if you need me to I will quote.

Some confusion is going on here so lets slow down a bit.

Can the Few see the Few?
Kind of ... let me explain. The Few can see the Mark - this is why there are tests, like the Wathi doll, that schoolmen use to recruit new practitioners (normally children). You aren't marked until you actually use magic.
Remember that Achamian was shocked when Kellhus told him he could see the Onta, and further shocked when he was able to awaken the Wathi doll. If "the Few can see the Few" such a thing would have been obvious. So, no the Few can't see that other's are able to see the Onta, what they can see is if they have used magic and have the mark.

Was Maithanet of the Few?
It actually might not have been explicitly stated but its heavily implied.  Its of little consequence as he doesn't use magic.

How did Moenghus know Kellhus would be of the Few?

The dunyain use educated guessing - they are not omnipotent. That's why its called the Probability Trance, and the thing with probabilities is that sometimes things happen that are unlikely.
Moenghus knew that he himself was of the few (obviously) and likely surmised that there was either a genetic component of it (there is), a training/physical competent, that it was a mark of intelligence, or some weird combination of all these things. Given any of that, or all, or some of each, either way he guessed that any son of his but most any dunyain as well would be one of the Few. To answer your question, did he know? Of course not. He didn't walk up to Ishual, have a chat, run some tests on his son, etc. He made an educated guess.
The whole thing you guys are getting into with dreams is only tangentially relevant. Yes, both sender and receiver must be of the Few. I could be wrong, but I don't think Moenghus sent dreams to Kellhus. Part of the trouble with that method is you must know the location of the reciever - my guess is that the Pragma and other Leaders tended to sleep in the same place while the other peons did not. Moe sent dreams to everyone that he could find, shotgun approach to make sure the message was delivered.

Did Moenghus' plans demand Kellhus was a schoolman?
Hard to say. My guess is that they would have worked up through Shimeh regardless, so it doesn't matter. Kellhus didn't really need, or use, magic until he killed Moenghus - which I assume was not part of Moenghus' plan (that's a whole different debate though). Keep in mind Moenghus died because he got the probabilities wrong, just like Maithanet, just like Kellhus. The Anasurimbor, the Dunyain, have a long history of guessing wrong and their plans ending in catastrophic failure - they make mistakes.

Did TTT demand that Kellhus was of the Few?
Depends. Whose TTT? Moenghus'? Probably not, Moenghus was going to unite with his son and unite the world. Kellhus'? Yeah, probably, but I would imagine that if he wasn't of the Few he would have either devised a different plan or simply been subsumed by Moenghus. Non-Magi Kellhus is much less impressive.



Hope that clears things up.

Re: NC - There's no reason anything has to have meaning. Yes, its a fantasy book, but every word and event is not suffused with importance. This book/series specifically has red herrings all over the place. Its perfectly valid to assume something is as it appears. Not saying its right, just that "because its a book" isn't any better reasoning to pick or discard a possibility.
That said, I'm also aware my opinion on this particular subject makes for an uninteresting conversation, so I'll just watch as other's hash it out. If I think of anything exciting to contribute either way, I will of course interject :D .

I think sometimes we get caught up in debating right vs. wrong (my theory vs. your theory), instead of agreeing to a shared set of assumptions for a topic and seeing where it takes us (I'm probably more guilty than anyone of that). It might be more revealing if we could say "hey, for this topic, lets assume X is true. How does that affect the world if it is?", instead of needing to debate X every single time.

Great topic btw, turned into a fun thread.

Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 15, 2017, 02:44:58 pm
But how did Moenghus know that Kellhus was one of the Few?
So far I think it's important to note that of the four full-blooded Dunyain Anasurimbors (Moenghus Sr., Kellhus, Koringhus, and the Boy) three are confirmed as being of the Few (Moenghus Sr., Kellhus, and Koringhus). I'm not sure about the Boy, though. I want to say that he's also one of the Few, but I actually don't remember anything indicating that, at least at the moment.

Also interesting is the fact that Moenghus Sr., Kellhus, and Koringhus represent a direct genealogical line. If the Boy is of the Few, then this goes far beyond simple coincidence.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2017, 03:26:58 pm
Beginning any statement with 'Bakker has said' is irritating and suspect, but, well ... he did say: that there is a genetic component, a heritability, in Seeing the Onta, though it is stronger in Nonmen than it is in men. He also said that that the Dunyain breeding program has incidentally selected for traits that make it more likely for one to be of the Few.

Note that Men are likely very unaware of this heritability because Schoolmen of all schools are forbidden wives, so its not like they have been tracking the phenomenon.

Given the occurrence of Sight of the Onta in the general population, even disregarding Bakker's insight, its pretty clear that there seems to be a LOT of people in the Anasurimbor line that can See.

Likely, as I said prior, that someone of Dunyain intellect would figure that it was genetic in some way, and/or possibly occurs with a specific kind of training, and/or a byproduct of intelligence, all of which were in favor of Kellhus being of the Few. If not Kellhus, well, he'd get the job done up through Shimeh and then Moenghus would have the power to reach back to Shimeh with a cohort of Mandati (he'd tell them of the Consult and be their savior even if Kellhus wasn't able to weild the gnosis) and a legion of men, and select from them another person to be his uber-schoolman.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 16, 2017, 04:55:40 pm
Kellhus did receive a dream from Moe at Ishual.

ETA: sorry, I'll elaborate ad quote when I have time. Its in the book.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 17, 2017, 11:26:02 pm
Quote
He rose, blinked against the firelight. As with so many questions regarding his mission, the answer was incalculable. “Shimeh,” Kellhus said at length. “A city far to the south called Shimeh.” “He sent for you from Shimeh? But how’s that possible?” Kellhus adopted a faintly bewildered look that was not far from true. “Through dreams. He sent for me through dreams.” “Sorcery . . .”

Before this, Kellhus went into the PT to be sure wether telling Leweth the truth would hurt his mission. And, somewhere it says that all who had received the dreams sans Kellhus committed suicide. Moe, knew Kellhus was of the few, simple deduction
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 18, 2017, 12:37:53 pm
sans Kellhus
Well, in all fairness that quote doesn't elucidate the issue. Its true that he was sent to Shimeh by his fathers via sorcery, but he doesn't claim to have received the dreams themselves right there (from that quote at least, might happen before/after/whenever). If there really is a part that says that everyone who got the dream went to TTT except Kellhus, that'd be proof enough. Like I said, I don't remember either way, but fwiw I believe you.

Anyway, the greater point definitely stands: if Moenghus sent Kellhus dreams then he knew Kel was one of the Few.

Btw, it always seemed to me that when Achamian is calling Atyersus that he does do some hunting around in the dream-space to find the right dreamer. Like that once you get to the right building in the real world, you can zero in on the exact person … I dunno. Dream walking, or whatever they call it, is a strange subject - and I'm not sure I have a point to that lol.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 18, 2017, 03:32:59 pm
I know I could find the quote if I chose to. But, thats really besides the point.

If Moe sent dreams back to Ishual it would stand to reason that he had to walk his little dream world to see those that he could even send to, right? Kellhus is who he wants, needs to convince. Why wouldn't he be one of those who received the dreams? While in Ishual, Moe knew nothing of the few. He had to guess, or rather as you say, walk the dream world to know who would hear him. Logic alone, tells you Kellhus received the dreams, along with the text.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 18, 2017, 06:23:16 pm
TDTCB

Quote
Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone—the elder Dûnyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one by one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths beneath Ishuäl. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted. I’m alone. My mission is all that remains.

He alone remained...... I know Wilshire its not specifically stated. But, along with my other quote and your dream walking theory, I am of the opinion that Kellhus was sent dreams. There's a layer quote where he talks about seeing war and such. I am 99% sure Kellhus was one of the original of those sent dreams.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 18, 2017, 06:26:34 pm
Eh, I think he needed Kellhus either way - Few or not.
Personally, it's probably that Kellhus was the only one he figured he could 'convince' the dunyain to release.
Either way, he had to send dreams to a bunch of people so that they didn't just think "welp, that one broke, into the unmasking room with him".
But yes, given the dream sending, Moenghus certainly knew Kellhus was of the Few.

Thanks for the additional quote :) .
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 18, 2017, 06:39:16 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
]Eh, I think he needed Kellhus either way - Few or not.

Explain that to me. Because, I don't think that is the truth at all. Matter of fact, we know from their talk at kyudea, that isn't the case.

Moe, knew he screwed up by picking the Psukhe. He could not wield the power needed to defeat the Consult. Thats why he sent for Kellhus and made sure Akka was there to be his tutor. What good would Kellhus be without the Gnosis? I am.fairly certain they would've lost at Shimeh, let alone at having a chance against the Consult.

Back to Maithanet Nd him being of the few. He seen Akka because of his Mark. He is also the leader of the Thousand Temples which would never have a leader who used sorcery. But, it was conman knowledge that Maithanet could see the few. He was one of them. Nuat like the College of Luthemaye (sp).
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 18, 2017, 09:10:35 pm
Plenty of quotes here from Kyudea, that suggest Moe needed Kellhus the sorcerer in order to enact the TT.

Quote
“So you assumed taking up the Water would be no different, that becoming one of the Indara-Kishauri would make you godlike in comparison. And since the Cishaurim themselves scarcely understand the metaphysics of their practice, there was nothing you could learn that would contradict this assumption. You couldn’t know that the Psûkhe was a metaphysic of the heart, not the intellect. Of passion … “So you let them blind you, only to find your powers proportionate to your vestigial passions. What you thought to be the Shortest Path was in fact a dead end.”

If Moe hadn't chose the Psukhe, not knowing that the weaknesses the Dunyain do have, he would have never needed Kellhus.

Quote
“Of course, you had heard of the Consult,” Kellhus continued, ignoring his question. “And like most in the Three Seas, you thought them long dead—the stuff of Mandate delusions. But the stories you extracted from your captives … there was too much consistency, too much detail, for them to be fabrications.“The deeper you probed, the more troubling the story became. You had read The Sagas, and you had doubted them, thinking them too fanciful. Destroying the world? No malice could be so great. No soul could be so deranged. After all, what could be gained? Who follows paths over precipices? “But the skin-spies explained it all. Speaking in shrieks and howls, they taught you the why and wherefore of the Apocalypse. You learned that the boundaries between the World and the Outside were not fixed, that if the World could be cleansed of enough souls, it could be sealed shut. Against the Gods. Against the heavens and the hells of the Afterlife. Against redemption. And, most importantly, against the possibility of damnation."

This quote is two-fold in answering some question. Celmommian Prophecy. I believe it was widely known and at least part of the reason Mandati were taking to be fools. It also shows that Moe knew all about it and needed the strongest sorcerer alive to contest them.

Quote
“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?” “From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared.”

Another clue he needed a super human sorcerer, Kellhus.

Quote
“Only a true son of Ishuäl could succeed,” his father continued. “For all the Thousandfold Thought’s innumerable deductions, for all its elegance, there remained countless variables that could not be foreseen. Each of its folds possesses a haze of catastrophic possibilities, most of them remote, others nearly certain. I would have abandoned it long ago, were not the consequences of inaction so absolute. “Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son.”

Quote
“No. You were the only path.”

Defense rests its case.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 19, 2017, 12:35:36 pm
Crap, forgot to post this yesterday - it address much of what you posted:

The primary pitfall of the puske for Moenghus was that he had to blind himself. Because of this, he lost most of the advantage that the dunyain training gave him. That issue was compounded by his inability to actually properly use it. This mistake was what lead to him needing another Dunyain in the first place.

Because of that, he needed some other full blooded Dunyain to unite the three seas.
Once the holy war was over and a Dunyain crowed as Emperor, Moenghus could have then gone on to part 2 of this plan to save the world.

What was needed was Kellhus the place - meaning a Dunyain to forcibly unite and hold together the Three Seas long enough to mount the Great Ordeal and attack/defeat Golgotterath.

From Moenghus' point of view, Kellhus the man was just a cog in the wheel. That position could have been occupied by any other Dunyain, though I do think that place needed to be a Few Dunyain that could use sorcery properly.

From Moenghus' POV, there was nothing inherently special about Kellhus, was there?

Quote
“No. You were the only path.”
Thanks for pulling all those quotes. Very helpful :) . Shit, I need to go back and read that - such a good scene, the end of TTT.

This quote though, is it clear why?

I specifically didn't mention TTT up till here for a reason, because there's definitely a difference between Moenghus' version and Kellhus', and I think it adds a lot of confusion.

For Moenghus, he couldn't see the whole picture, just that there was a shaping of events that needed to take place.The reason Moenghus picked Kellhus is unclear - it could be that no matter how he computed the TT the Dunyain he needed was Kellhus. I still say that what Moenghus was someone to fill the role of Kellhus and it could have been anyone that fit thse parameters - with the possability that Kellhus was the only one available at the time that Moenghus knew of that could have done it.

Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 19, 2017, 02:26:15 pm
Plenty of quotes here from Kyudea, that suggest Moe needed Kellhus the sorcerer in order to enact the TT.

Quote
“So you assumed taking up the Water would be no different, that becoming one of the Indara-Kishauri would make you godlike in comparison. And since the Cishaurim themselves scarcely understand the metaphysics of their practice, there was nothing you could learn that would contradict this assumption. You couldn’t know that the Psûkhe was a metaphysic of the heart, not the intellect. Of passion … “So you let them blind you, only to find your powers proportionate to your vestigial passions. What you thought to be the Shortest Path was in fact a dead end.”

If Moe hadn't chose the Psukhe, not knowing that the weaknesses the Dunyain do have, he would have never needed Kellhus.

Quote
“Of course, you had heard of the Consult,” Kellhus continued, ignoring his question. “And like most in the Three Seas, you thought them long dead—the stuff of Mandate delusions. But the stories you extracted from your captives … there was too much consistency, too much detail, for them to be fabrications.“The deeper you probed, the more troubling the story became. You had read The Sagas, and you had doubted them, thinking them too fanciful. Destroying the world? No malice could be so great. No soul could be so deranged. After all, what could be gained? Who follows paths over precipices? “But the skin-spies explained it all. Speaking in shrieks and howls, they taught you the why and wherefore of the Apocalypse. You learned that the boundaries between the World and the Outside were not fixed, that if the World could be cleansed of enough souls, it could be sealed shut. Against the Gods. Against the heavens and the hells of the Afterlife. Against redemption. And, most importantly, against the possibility of damnation."

This quote is two-fold in answering some question. Celmommian Prophecy. I believe it was widely known and at least part of the reason Mandati were taking to be fools. It also shows that Moe knew all about it and needed the strongest sorcerer alive to contest them.

Quote
“When did you realize you didn’t possess the strength,” Kellhus asked, “that more was needed to avert the No-God’s second coming?” “From the very first I recognized that it was probable,” Moënghus said. “But I spent years assessing the possibilities, gathering knowledge. When the first of the Thought came to me, I was quite unprepared.”

Another clue he needed a super human sorcerer, Kellhus.

Quote
“Only a true son of Ishuäl could succeed,” his father continued. “For all the Thousandfold Thought’s innumerable deductions, for all its elegance, there remained countless variables that could not be foreseen. Each of its folds possesses a haze of catastrophic possibilities, most of them remote, others nearly certain. I would have abandoned it long ago, were not the consequences of inaction so absolute. “Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son.”

Quote
“No. You were the only path.”

Defense rests its case.

I don't think any of the quotes confirm the need for Kellhus's sorcery; The Thousandfold Thought, as I understand it and as I believe, is the Shortest Path applied on a much grander scale; for due to their isolation, Dunyain mastery over the circumstances is limited in scope, and the sheer size of the world required the invention of a new method, the Thousandfold Thought that was almost too much for even Kellhus. Naturally, only a Dunyain could master it; I don't believe magic is neccessarily a part of it, nor was Moenghus's understanding of magic strong enough to see the pathways Kellhus, in his sorcerous might, would pursue.

As for Moenghus needing Kellhus, it is true he would not have needed him had he not chosen Psükhe. But as I understood it, this because the Psükhe crippled him - sight is an important tool to the Dunyain, and his clear association with the Cishaurium by blinding himself would've kept him away from pursuing more promising paths, be it among the Mandati or the political echelons of either civilizations.

Crap, forgot to post this yesterday - it address much of what you posted:

The primary pitfall of the puske for Moenghus was that he had to blind himself. Because of this, he lost most of the advantage that the dunyain training gave him. That issue was compounded by his inability to actually properly use it. This mistake was what lead to him needing another Dunyain in the first place.

Because of that, he needed some other full blooded Dunyain to unite the three seas.
Once the holy war was over and a Dunyain crowed as Emperor, Moenghus could have then gone on to part 2 of this plan to save the world.

What was needed was Kellhus the place - meaning a Dunyain to forcibly unite and hold together the Three Seas long enough to mount the Great Ordeal and attack/defeat Golgotterath.

From Moenghus' point of view, Kellhus the man was just a cog in the wheel. That position could have been occupied by any other Dunyain, though I do think that place needed to be a Few Dunyain that could use sorcery properly.

From Moenghus' POV, there was nothing inherently special about Kellhus, was there?

Quote
“No. You were the only path.”
Thanks for pulling all those quotes. Very helpful :) . Shit, I need to go back and read that - such a good scene, the end of TTT.

This quote though, is it clear why?

I specifically didn't mention TTT up till here for a reason, because there's definitely a difference between Moenghus' version and Kellhus', and I think it adds a lot of confusion.

For Moenghus, he couldn't see the whole picture, just that there was a shaping of events that needed to take place.The reason Moenghus picked Kellhus is unclear - it could be that no matter how he computed the TT the Dunyain he needed was Kellhus. I still say that what Moenghus was someone to fill the role of Kellhus and it could have been anyone that fit thse parameters - with the possability that Kellhus was the only one available at the time that Moenghus knew of that could have done it.

Moenghus might've seen Kellhus as the only one who could pursue the Thousandfold Thought because he is Anasurimbor, the line confirmed by the Survivor as being the strongest, and because Kellhus himself seemed to be stronger than the rest - in the flashbacks to his childhood, he seems quicker than rest of his "class". In addition to that, Moenghus might just be biased in favour of his son - Moenghus himself admits that the Dunyain, despite their belief to the contrary, are not immune to the Legion Within. The Survivor confirms this even more clearly, when he realizes before his suicide just why he saved the crab handed boy - because it was his son, because he smelled Anasurimbor.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 19, 2017, 05:16:51 pm
Well, lets look at this way fellows. Would've sorcerless Kellhus and the Great Ordeal even made it to Golgottereath?

My answer, not a fucking chance. The Thousandfold Thought was a plan to destroy the Consult and save the world. We can argue semantics all day. Kellhus needed to be the baddest sorcerer to ever walk Earwa, to even have a chance.

ETA: I understand the reason Moe sent for Kellhus was that he blinded himself. But, he also knew Kellhus needed sorcery, hence assuring Akka as tutor, or Kellhus wouldn't have even united the Three Seas, let alone contest the Consult.

How do you think Moe planned to unite the 3seas? Waxing poetically? No, he thought by being blinded and learning the Psukhe he would surpass men in sorcery the same way. Just picked the wrong sorcery.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 19, 2017, 06:21:50 pm
Quote from:  Cuttlefish
Moenghus himself admits that the Dunyain, despite their belief to the contrary, are not immune to the Legion Within. The Survivor confirms this even more clearly, when he realizes before his suicide just why he saved the crab handed boy - because it was his son, because he smelled Anasurimbor.

And yet, people question Kellhus's love for Esme, and even Serwe for that matter.....
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 19, 2017, 06:34:36 pm
Quote
Thanks for pulling all those quotes. Very helpful :) . Shit, I need to go back and read that - such a good scene, the end of TTT.

This quote though, is it clear why?

I specifically didn't mention TTT up till here for a reason, because there's definitely a difference between Moenghus' version and Kellhus', and I think it adds a lot of confusion.

For Moenghus, he couldn't see the whole picture, just that there was a shaping of events that needed to take place.The reason Moenghus picked Kellhus is unclear - it could be that no matter how he computed the TT the Dunyain he needed was Kellhus. I still say that what Moenghus was someone to fill the role of Kellhus and it could have been anyone that fit thse parameters - with the possability that Kellhus was the only one available at the time that Moenghus knew of that could have done it.

Please do reread it, I think you'll see that what Moe needed was a Dunyain capable of sorcery. Also, some of Bakker's best writing undoubtedly.

Moe, knew the TT, it came to him out of nowhere. He just knew that being blinded and not being a powerful sorcerer effectively made him null. So, his obvious choice is his son. Who, as has been explained before is the strongest of the Dunyain. I don't think Its true Moe couldn't see the whole of the thought, again, go back and reread. He learned an abundance about the Consult through the Skin-Spies. Things we never even hear because Cnaüir walks in and Kellhus kills him. Moe knew more about the Consult plan than anyone in the 3seas. Only, he wasn't powerful enough as a sorcerer to carry out the plan. Thata why that quote, to me, puts the nail in the coffin as to why a sorceress Kellhus was needed.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 19, 2017, 06:52:17 pm
Maybe a bit off topic here, but does anybody feel that Moënghus actually loved his son?
Quote
"Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son."

Could it be? A tincture of sorrow in his father's voice? Kellhus turned from the hanging skin-spies, once again enclosed his father within the circle of his scrutiny.

Quote
Stepping from between his faceless captives, Moënghus approached, his expression a mask of blind stone. He reached out as though to clasp Kellhus's wrist or hand, but halted the instant Kellhus shrank back.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 19, 2017, 06:59:11 pm
Who knows, he admits that they're not without the Legion within, like they think they are. Never gave it much thought. But, if the Survivor and him saving his son is meant to show us anything, then I'd say yes. In their own Dunyainish way of loving.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 19, 2017, 07:04:44 pm
That all really implies that Moenghus though Kellhus was special though, and I don't agree.  Could he be? Sure. All the cited evidence though points to the need for a Dunyain that wasn't blind and of the Few. Ishual by all accounts should have been full of them.

Randomly, on that note, I wonder why the rest of the dream-contaminated Dunyain didn't go with Kellhus. Conspiracy level speculation here - but if the goal was to have Moenghus killed, wouldn't it be better that they all went out into the world? They could pinky-swear-suicide-pact beforehand that once Moe was killed they all drink some poison. Makes no sense to kill off a dozen perfectly capable Dunyain. A Cabal of Dunyain shock troopers could have just marched straight to Shimeh and fucked up Moenghus and that whole city, schoolmen or not.

Maybe a bit off topic here, but does anybody feel that Moënghus actually loved his son?
Quote
"Only one of the Conditioned could follow its path. Only you, my son."

Could it be? A tincture of sorrow in his father's voice? Kellhus turned from the hanging skin-spies, once again enclosed his father within the circle of his scrutiny.

Quote
Stepping from between his faceless captives, Moënghus approached, his expression a mask of blind stone. He reached out as though to clasp Kellhus's wrist or hand, but halted the instant Kellhus shrank back.
I think TTT Moenghus was approaching TUC Kellhus uncertainty. Maybe Kellhus was Moenghus' Esmenet.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 19, 2017, 07:12:51 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
That all really implies that Moenghus though Kellhus was special though, and I don't agree.  Could he be? Sure. All the cited evidence though points to the need for a Dunyain that wasn't blind and of the Few. Ishual by all accounts should have been full of them.

You don't think that the Anasurrimbor line wasn't special? Wow. I think there are many, many instances where this is verified by the Dunyain themselves, most notably the survivor and the Boy. I'm not going and looking for quotes because this is a common knowledge type of thing, I think your overlooking.

ETA: Dunyain Anansurimbor's
1. Kellhus, baddest sorcerer who ever walked Earwa and was a hairs width from accomplishing his goal.
2. Survivor. The Only Dunyain to survive the Consult at Ishual, mind you with his son on his back. Seems pretty special to me.
3. The Boy. Yet to be seen, but might become more powerful than the whole lot.
4. Moe. If not for one mistake, the story would be been about Moe, not Kellhus.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 19, 2017, 09:16:03 pm
Wilshire (also others please jump in, more opinions the better.)

If Moe didn't need a Dunyain that would be a mighty sorcerer, what would he need then to even put the TT into action?

TT into action, I mean to unite the 3seas. How else, but by sheer sorcerous power would you unite the Fanim and the rest of the 3seas? Diplomacy? Moe himself says Maithenet wouldn't be enough.

You do realize that Shimeh would've lost if not for Kellhus and his Cant of Translocation, right? Or, at the very least a battle that decimated both sides, but never united them.

And, lastly were forgetting that this was all basically pre-ordained. Moe says the thought came to him out of nowhere....can anyone say Ajokli? Kellhus, was special for a variety of reasons, the least him being an Anansurimbor. I can't comprehend how someone could say that any Dunyain would've been as capable. Especially when the Boy notes that the Survivor well surpassed any of the elders, in terms of reaching the Absolute. 

So, I'm asking what other possible way/person would there be to so what Kellhus was capable of doing? Heck, even as powerful as he was, some nations still never bowed to him. Give me a scenario where sans Kellhus the 3seas are even united....heck if the truly ever were.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: JerakoKayne on December 20, 2017, 03:45:43 am
Moe says the thought came to him out of nowhere....can anyone say Ajokli?

My favorite assertion in this thread so far, and one I enjoy very much!

Though my opinion is that this latest turn is running parallel to the thread's intent. Regardless of whether or not Moe sent for Kell, and why, it is my [edit:]interpretation that whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail (though I'm personally in team Moe needed sorcery, and it's obv non-defective Dunyain are Few. Why Kellhus? Is because without pride Anasurimbor Dunyain is objectively best Dunyain. Anasurimbor is the strongest of the twelve seeds).

Whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail. It's Drusas Achamian's indecision that keeps him alive. In the prophecy itself (per TGO dream, anyway) Kellhus himself is presented as "the end of the world".

Achamian's hesitation in turning him in is because he knew the Mandate would completely destroy him with their Plies (early TWP) and even the Conditioned wouldn't survive a Cant of Compulsion.

Whoever sent the Prophecy really, really wanted Kellhus to fail.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Dora Vee on December 20, 2017, 04:07:50 am
Well, they got what they wanted. I wonder who sent that dream?
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: JerakoKayne on December 20, 2017, 05:31:22 am

Whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail. It's Drusas Achamian's indecision that keeps him alive.

Achamian's hesitation in turning him in is because he knew the Mandate would completely destroy him with their Plies (early TWP) and even the Conditioned wouldn't survive a Cant of Compulsion.

Whoever sent the Prophecy really, really wanted Kellhus to fail.

On this note, Aurang states that all the prophecies, true and false, must be observed. And Achamian was trained by a Consult skin-spy (the-thing-that-is-called-Simas).
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 20, 2017, 05:36:21 am
Quote from:  Cuttlefish
Moenghus himself admits that the Dunyain, despite their belief to the contrary, are not immune to the Legion Within. The Survivor confirms this even more clearly, when he realizes before his suicide just why he saved the crab handed boy - because it was his son, because he smelled Anasurimbor.

And yet, people question Kellhus's love for Esme, and even Serwe for that matter.....

Oh, that's a debate I took part in. Several times in both series, it is very clearly implied that Kellhus is capable of feelings - sparing Cnaiür out of pity, crying when nailed to Serwe to name the two most prominent examples in the first series. Theopliano (probably butchered her name) herself puts it best; when likening emotions to tracks made in the snow, she mentions that she and father make the tracks hardest to see, but they still make those.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 20, 2017, 01:12:41 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
That all really implies that Moenghus thought Kellhus was special though, and I don't agree.  Could he be? Sure. All the cited evidence though points to the need for a Dunyain that wasn't blind and of the Few. Ishual by all accounts should have been full of them.

You don't think that the Anasurrimbor line wasn't special?
I said Kellhus wasn't special. What I meant was that he wasn't special insofar as its likely any other dunyain could have done what he did.

By all accounts, he was a bumbling fool who should have died in the woods. He got lucky, and got lucky, and got lucky, and eventually after being saved a dozen times and being spoonfed the most power one could imagine, he finally became what he was - then he died.

Kellhus the person was not special.


Wilshire (also others please jump in, more opinions the better.)

If Moe didn't need a Dunyain that would be a mighty sorcerer, what would he need then to even put the TT into action?

Already covered this above. To reiterate in short - he needed somone to lead an army to Shimeh. No sorcery required. Note, none was even used until the end. So, we should at least agree that he didn't need to be a sorcerer to unite the holy war and bring it to Shimeh.

TT into action, I mean to unite the 3seas. How else, but by sheer sorcerous power would you unite the Fanim and the rest of the 3seas? Diplomacy? Moe himself says Maithenet wouldn't be enough.
Again, covered above. In short: TTT doesn't care who wins the holy war. The important thing is that a Dunyain is at the helm of the New Empire.

You do realize that Shimeh would've lost if not for Kellhus and his Cant of Translocation, right? Or, at the very least a battle that decimated both sides, but never united them.
I do realize that the Fanim would have won, yes. Again, the TT proceeds without a hiccup - unite humanity under one religion. It would have "united" them the same way - nothing like nearly 30 years of constant war to unite a peoples.

Besides, the religion is irrelevant because the Dunyain at the helm changes it to suit his needs.

And, lastly were forgetting that this was all basically pre-ordained. Moe says the thought came to him out of nowhere....can anyone say Ajokli?
It came to Inrilatas in his cell, it came to Maithanet, it came to Kelmomas.
Could have been Ajokli, could have been anything.

Kellhus, was special for a variety of reasons, the least him being an Anansurimbor.
Like what?
If he was special, it wasn't for anything he did. He accomplished nothing that wasn't given to him by Moenghus or Ajokli, and he ultimately failed. Any dunyain could have been handed the pre-laid plans made by Moenghus and been taken up by Ajolki and have done just as well.

I can't comprehend how someone could say that any Dunyain would've been as capable.
Its about looking at it more objectively. FWIW, I can see why you might feel that Kellhus was special.

Especially when the Boy notes that the Survivor well surpassed any of the elders, in terms of reaching the Absolute. 
The Boy was how old during the war against the Consult? He didn't remember anything. And all the he remembers was what Koringhus taught him - all lies.

Regardless, Survivor being a badass doesn't say much of anything about Kellhus either way, at least in this regard. He didn't use magic, which is really what most of this is about.

So, I'm asking what other possible way/person would there be to so what Kellhus was capable of doing? Heck, even as powerful as he was, some nations still never bowed to him.
Yup, as I already have said, Kellhus didn't do anything. He was handed the Holy War, the Three Seas, the Outside, the Thousandfold thought, and the Gnosis.
Any Dunyain that was spoon fed all those advantages could have done exactly what Kellhus did.

Give me a scenario where sans Kellhus the 3seas are even united....heck if the truly ever were.
Scenario 1:
Literally any dunyain could have done it. Here, super human guy, here's the plans and a play-by-play book for how to take over the world, oh and I already set up all the pieces. Basically Dominos, and Kellhus couldn't do it. Any Dunyain could have done that as well.

Scenario 2:
Moenghus especially was a true mastermind, except for the whole blinding himself thing. He had TTT planned out beginning to end, and he definitely didn't plan to lose or to be killed.
On that note, TTT ultimately failed, so its not such a great thing to hang one's hat on at this point.  Everyone who has 'grasped it' is dead, and likely everyone that did 'grasp it' entirely thought they were special and they would be the one to save the world. None of them did. The Thought was a broken tool.

Scenario 3:
Koringhus. If Kellhus wasn't an idiot and went around revealing himself to the Consult and getting Ishual destroyed (aside, ultimately this leading to his own death and failure as it caused the Dunyain to rule the Consult...), there was a whole line of Anasurimbor better, faster, stronger than him.

Scenario 4:
Conphas. Kellhus didn't do much of anything except fail given every advantage imaginable. You don't need a super human to do that. Conphas had already united the three seas with treaties with Fanayal and had already divided the spoils of the holy war. Would Conphas have defeated the Consult? No, but neither did Kellhus, or Moenghus, so what's the major difference?

Scenario 5:
Cnaiur. He was gearing up to be a badass King of Tribes that might have been able to sweep across the Three Seas post-holy-war and "united" them much the same way Kellhus "united" them - with fear and violence.


Granted, the last two are a bit of a stretch, but when we know the plan ended in abject failure and death, the bar is set pretty low.

I appreciate the discussion, MSJ :) . Even if I know no one reads big posts, at least its fun for me (us, hopefully).
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 20, 2017, 02:33:20 pm
@Wilshire I agree with your assertion that the main purpose of summoning a Dunyain was to lead the army, not master magic, but I'm fairly convinced that you're wrong about Kellhus not being special. Three points that I've mentioned here before:

1 - Dunyain are not equals. The Survivor reminisces about the Dunyain, who, confronted with the siege of the Consult, simply stopped functioning. Some Dunyain are clearly weaker than the others.

2 - Anasurimbor line is more powerful. The Survivor remarks on this. He could be biased, but I don't think he is.

3 - Kellhus was quicker than rest of the Dunyain children. There is one notable flashback, where the Pragma takes them out to the woods and asks them what he sees - Kellhus is the only one to answer that he sees conflict, of tree roots fighting for space. Maybe it's not definitive, but I saw the flashbacks as clearly implying that Kellhus was somehow ahead of his peers.

And it's rather unfair to say that Kellhus was a bumbling fool. He has a sensory overload when he first gets out of Ishual - as far as we know, this could be the case for pretty much every Dunyain, as they've learned to pick off every detail and have been living in a very isolated space; the world is too big even for them. He does require coincidences to survive, but same could be said for any Dunyain - despite all their might, the Dunyain are not infallible and the world is overwhelmingly big and complex.

Edit: Also, it is fair to say that the Holy War would've failed without Kellhus. Especially in the second battle (whose name I forget), which was almost a defeat until Kellhus recognized that Cnaiür's plan wasn't working and intervened. Not to forget, his miracle of water that saved the Holy War later down the road.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 20, 2017, 03:22:51 pm
1 - Dunyain are not equals. The Survivor reminisces about the Dunyain, who, confronted with the siege of the Consult, simply stopped functioning. Some Dunyain are clearly weaker than the others.
....
And it's rather unfair to say that Kellhus was a bumbling fool. He has a sensory overload when he first gets out of Ishual
Ok so then Kellhus is "special" - weaker than the rest because a stick confused him.

2 - Anasurimbor line is more powerful. The Survivor remarks on this. He could be biased, but I don't think he is.
Agreed.

3 - Kellhus was quicker than rest of the Dunyain children.
I was better at some things then my childhood peergroup, and much worse at others. Not always a huge predictor.

There is one notable flashback, where the Pragma takes them out to the woods and asks them what he sees - Kellhus is the only one to answer that he sees conflict, of tree roots fighting for space. Maybe it's not definitive, but I saw the flashbacks as clearly implying that Kellhus was somehow ahead of his peers.
Agreed.

And it's rather unfair to say that Kellhus was a bumbling fool.
He went out into the woods, in the winter, without a coat and without knowledge of foraging, hunting, or trapping, without knowing where he was going.
Arrogant. Hubris. Idiotic.

He has a sensory overload when he first gets out of Ishual - as far as we know, this could be the case for pretty much every Dunyain, as they've learned to pick off every detail and have been living in a very isolated space; the world is too big even for them.
Noted above. Some do, some don't. Assuming that its the strongest ones that break is... silly.

He does require coincidences to survive, but same could be said for any Dunyain - despite all their might, the Dunyain are not infallible and the world is overwhelmingly big and complex.
A clever man would seek out survival knowledge prior to entering into a survival state.

Some of the brilliant things that Kellhus gets himself into in 2 books:
Nearly dies from exposure, finds a ruined city for shelter just before he passes out.
Nearly dies again from exposure and hunger, he is saved by Leweth.
He goes to Atrithau, does some standard mindtricks and gets a little band to go south, nearly dies by sranc attack.
Gets rescued just as he nearly dies from blood loss by guy who randomly showed up.
Fails to see Moenghus' condition path in Cnaiur, screws that whole thing up and creates a lifelong enemy that nearly kills him several times.
Goes to the Holy War, nearly gets killed/captured again, randomly saved by random events again.
Joins holy war, finds Achamian, gets lucky that he's a skeptic and doesn't report him to the Mandate.
Gets lucky at the first battle, says some random stuff that magically makes things work out.
Nearly dies on the circumfix (his own admission - he doesn't know how he's going to survive), saved by crazy lunatic.


Was it a hard journey? Yes. But someone as brilliant and important as Kellhus makes himself out to be should have fared better. Doesn't seem to me that he did an exceptional job - I think its closer to typical dunyain than otherwise.


Edit: Also, it is fair to say that the Holy War would've failed without Kellhus. Especially in the second battle (whose name I forget), which was almost a defeat until Kellhus recognized that Cnaiür's plan wasn't working and intervened. Not to forget, his miracle of water that saved the Holy War later down the road.
Who would have lost? Conphas was actively working towards using it for his own ends. So was everyone else. Conphas would have done a superb job had it not been for Kellhus. It took Maithanet, Moenghus, and Kellhus to circumvent Conphas.

So, yes, of course it would not have done what Moenghus intended - that's why he called a Dunyain from Ishual. For Moenghus to succeed, Moenghus needed a Dunyain at the helm (again pointing out, to outwit a human).

As for the water Miracle, it wasn't actually a miracle. He found an underground river, and I assume any dunyain could have done that.

Kellhus was special not for anything he did, but because of what was given to him by others. Did he do unique and powerful things? Yes. I just don't see why literally any other Dunyain (with two functioning eyes) wouldn't have done the same or better.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 20, 2017, 03:56:27 pm
Ok so then Kellhus is "special" - weaker than the rest because a stick confused him.

How do you know that the same would not have happened to any other Dunyain? How do you know that Moenghus wasn't overwhelmed when he first left?

Agreed.

He went out into the woods, in the winter, without a coat and without knowledge of foraging, hunting, or trapping, without knowing where he was going.
Arrogant. Hubris. Idiotic.

He went out the way he was sent; if he didn't have any survival skills, it is because the Dunyain didn't teach him any - it is doubtful whether the Dunyain themselves had any to begin with.

Some of the brilliant things that Kellhus gets himself into in 2 books:
Nearly dies from exposure, finds a ruined city for shelter just before he passes out.
Nearly dies again from exposure and hunger, he is saved by Leweth.
He goes to Atrithau, does some standard mindtricks and gets a little band to go south, nearly dies by sranc attack.
Gets rescued just as he nearly dies from blood loss by guy who randomly showed up.
Fails to see Moenghus' condition path in Cnaiur, screws that whole thing up and creates a lifelong enemy that nearly kills him several times.
Goes to the Holy War, nearly gets killed/captured again, randomly saved by random events again.
Joins holy war, finds Achamian, gets lucky that he's a skeptic and doesn't report him to the Mandate.
Gets lucky at the first battle, says some random stuff that magically makes things work out.
Nearly dies on the circumfix (his own admission - he doesn't know how he's going to survive), saved by crazy lunatic.

Nothing to imply that any other Dunyain would've fared better - Moenghus himself had been taken captive by the Sranc, and only just survived. He led himself to dead ends twice - first by scarring his arms, that made going to the Nansur impossible, and secondly by blinding himself. And I am going to go out on a limb and assume dying was not a part of his plan, so ultimately, he failed far more spectacularly than Kellhus. The failings of Kellhus could easily be the failings of any other Dunyain - in fact, other Dunyain could fail way worse than he did. He went against great odds and ultimately he came out on top (at least until the second series reached its conclusion), but that doesn't mean he was capable of mastering anything.


Who would have lost? Conphas was actively working towards using it for his own ends. So was everyone else. Conphas would have done a superb job had it not been for Kellhus. It took Maithanet, Moenghus, and Kellhus to circumvent Conphas.

So, yes, of course it would not have done what Moenghus intended - that's why he called a Dunyain from Ishual. For Moenghus to succeed, Moenghus needed a Dunyain at the helm (again pointing out, to outwit a human).

What good would have Conphas's deal been, had the Holy War lost first two of its battles, both of which were won thanks, in some part, to Kellhus, and failed to gain any advantage or land? Conphas would've gone back home, assuming he could, with whatever troops he had left, and wait for the Fanim to strike at a much diminished Three Seas and possibly conquer it all.

As for the water Miracle, it wasn't actually a miracle. He found an underground river, and I assume any dunyain could have done that.

Possibly, yes. But Conphas couldn't.

Kellhus was special not for anything he did, but because of what was given to him by others. Did he do unique and powerful things? Yes. I just don't see why literally any other Dunyain (with two functioning eyes) wouldn't have done the same or better.

Because other Dunyain are probably weaker than him, and couldn't have gone as far as he did. Possibly, at least. We don't precisely know, but by the time the first trilogy reached its conclusion, Kellhus had gone leagues ahead of them and had no reason to consider there might be others more suited to his purpose; I doubt there were any to begin with.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 20, 2017, 04:34:21 pm
I'm not sure I understand where we are diverging in opinion.

I think we can see there's not conclusive evidence either way, that Kellhus may or may not have performed exactly the same as another dunyain in the same place.
You seem to think I believe Moenghus was extraordinary - I do not. He failed, just like all the other Dunyain failed.
That said, he didn't have the benefit of having his daddy lay the path before him and a God endow him with power. So yes, we have many examples of Dunyain failing, epicly, typically at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives. Kellhus' failure the most spectacular so far.

Maybe the difference between us is this: I see other Dunyain, ie Moenghus and Survivor, Consult, etc., accomplish much on their own. But when I really look at Kellhus' journey, all I see is how he gets lucky and has his hand held throughout. Maybe that's not how you see it?
If not that, any other idea's as to why we're not on the same page?

For Conphas, his whole goal was to cripple the Holy War and show up at Shimeh with his full army in-tact. It was all planned out. The Holy War was supposed to fail.
I know he wouldn't have found water. If I'm not mistaken, it was because Kellhus thwarted Conphas in the first battle, which were supposed to be won by Conphas, that the water-bearing armada got waylaid.

This is a tricky subject because it goes down a rabbit hole of 'what-ifs'. What if Kellhus wasn't there, or Maithanet, who brought in the SS, or Moenghus. We'll barely be able to keep track of which "if" we're talking about...
Basically though, everything the Holy War accomplished was pretty much because Moenghus, and Maithanet, set up Kellhus. Kellhus, for his part, did exactly what any Dunyain was expected to do, except for going bonkers (I blame Ajokli) for hearing voices and ended up killing his father who was on his side and trying to help him. Moenghus, sans Ajokli, could have used Kellhus or any other Dunyain to do what Kellhus did.

Kellhus was special not for anything he did, but because of what was given to him by others. Did he do unique and powerful things? Yes. I just don't see why literally any other Dunyain (with two functioning eyes) wouldn't have done the same or better.

Because other Dunyain are probably weaker than him, and couldn't have gone as far as he did. Possibly, at least.
I obviously don't agree, but I don't see any way to square that.

We don't precisely know, but by the time the first trilogy reached its conclusion, Kellhus had gone leagues ahead of them and had no reason to consider there might be others more suited to his purpose; I doubt there were any to begin with.
Just rehashing now, probably the end of this speculative thread unless someone else has something to add. Kellhus was leagues ahead because of Moenghus and perhaps Ajokli, not because he was anything noteworthy in his own right.

Thanks for the conversation, Cuttlefish :)
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Rots on December 20, 2017, 05:23:14 pm
@Wilshire - this is all very, very, Slatepitch-y of you. I mean why doesnt RSB just put in <average Dunyan here> throughout the 7 novels whenever Kellhus is referenced? Why not put in <avg noble family that figures throughout millenia of pivotal and critical roles> rather than type "Anasurimbor" over and over.

We should just have some lame baseball analytics for DAR (dunyain above average) and LAD (league average dunyain) instead of all these pesky names and specifics. Kellhus and the Anasurimbor line are special because RSB spends thousands of pages telling us that they are special. This isnt a story about the halcyon days of the Bob Smith dynasty and what befell them. If we are to take your Slatepitch seriously we would then have to throw out all that has come before and there is too much Darkness in that direction.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 20, 2017, 06:15:20 pm
I dont know what Slatepitch is.
I am fully aware that changing fundamental assumptions leads to different conclusions, and that yes its a fiction book so the main characters are special because they are the main characters.
What I'm not sure about though is if you know this is just for fun?
Yes of course we can all just say 'take book at face value, lets go home' - but I'd prefer to have a conversation, its much more entertaining for me. I've been around for much to long, so making new assumptions and looking for evidence to support it is how I get my fix ;) . Sometimes something valuable comes from it, sometimes not.
"I'm right, you're wrong, agree to disagree" doesn't have the same interest to me as what just transpired here.

And, clearly, I still disagree that there are thousands of pages that say Kellhus is special. I have, as detailed at length above, an opposite opinion actually.

I'd love it if you'd elaborate on why you think and feel the way you do on the subject :) .
Which pages and words in particular make you believe so passionately? Which information from the books or elsewhere have you found supporting your opinion?
Also, are you big into baseball, or sports analytics (I assume slatepitch and  the other acronyms are derived from sports terminology)?
(btw, I'm glad my posts have moved you to post. Its not every day we get an appearance from Rots).
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TaoHorror on December 20, 2017, 07:14:34 pm
The title, Prince of Nothing, has more meaning beyond he wasn't the Prince of Atrithau. The "debate" on how "special" he was is not the relevant one to have ( although, quite interesting/fun, I admit ), but more of introspection from the reader to figure out why we view Kellhus the way we do and what does it mean to us that we feel the way we do about his failure. That "hook" is coming more from our own darkness than from Bakker ... can you find it's source?
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 20, 2017, 07:21:08 pm
The title, Prince of Nothing, has more meaning beyond he wasn't the Prince of Atrithau. The "debate" on how "special" he was is not the relevant one to have ( although, quite interesting/fun, I admit ), but more of introspection from the reader to figure out why we view Kellhus the way we do and what does it mean to us that we feel the way we do about his failure. That "hook" is coming more from our own darkness than from Bakker ... can you find it's source?

:) This guy gets it.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 20, 2017, 08:00:02 pm
Quote from:  TaoHorror
The title, Prince of Nothing, has more meaning beyond he wasn't the Prince of Atrithau. The "debate" on how "special" he was is not the relevant one to have ( although, quite interesting/fun, I admit ), but more of introspection from the reader to figure out why we view Kellhus the way we do and what does it mean to us that we feel the way we do about his failure. That "hook" is coming more from our own darkness than from Bakker ... can you find it's source?

Great conversation going on here, I like it.

But, Kellhus death or failure, really means nothing to me. It wasn't a surprise, in fact the closer it got to TUC coming out the more I thought he would be caught unawares. He's dead, and apparently.....not done. So, it don't mean much to me at all right now.

What I do know is that 7 books worth of learning how Kellhus mastered the World basically has led me to believe he was very special. Probably, no undoubtedly, the most powerful being ever to walk Earwa. And, Ajokli did not grant him any powers until the GR. Kellhus plundered the Bells, had Ciphrang hanging from his belt. Added a 2nd innutteral and completely changed the face of sorcery. Without him, The Ordeal doesn't come close to the Ark and a dumb mistake from defeating the Consult outright.

I agree with a lot that Wilshire posted about PoN Kellhus and him needing a conditioned path, but Moe knew he would need that. After killing Moe, nothing was conditioned for him anymore. And, that's when I thought he shined the brightest, in regards to his intelligence and decision making.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Rots on December 20, 2017, 09:02:51 pm
I dont know what Slatepitch is.
I am fully aware that changing fundamental assumptions leads to different conclusions, and that yes its a fiction book so the main characters are special because they are the main characters.
What I'm not sure about though is if you know this is just for fun?
Yes of course we can all just say 'take book at face value, lets go home' - but I'd prefer to have a conversation, its much more entertaining for me. I've been around for much to long, so making new assumptions and looking for evidence to support it is how I get my fix ;) . Sometimes something valuable comes from it, sometimes not.
"I'm right, you're wrong, agree to disagree" doesn't have the same interest to me as what just transpired here.

And, clearly, I still disagree that there are thousands of pages that say Kellhus is special. I have, as detailed at length above, an opposite opinion actually.

I'd love it if you'd elaborate on why you think and feel the way you do on the subject :) .
Which pages and words in particular make you believe so passionately? Which information from the books or elsewhere have you found supporting your opinion?
Also, are you big into baseball, or sports analytics (I assume slatepitch and  the other acronyms are derived from sports terminology)?
(btw, I'm glad my posts have moved you to post. Its not every day we get an appearance from Rots).

Slate.com is a news/opinion website that is (in)famous for its contrary for the sake of being contrary takes, and that is what i feel you are doing here. I am, thankfully, a former sport fanatic. I now more productively, and effectively spend my time doing other things then caring about sports but i can still speak the lingua franca.

I am not going to play the "pull a quote out of 7 books and defend a specific line reading" game here. Ill just say that, again, the scions of a single house throughout the 7 books are seen as special because the books are about those very people. You are asking me to prove a negative, imo. I think the character of Kellhus outran RSBs ability to contain him and thus we saw a dramatic reduction in Kellhus POV chapters in these books because of that. I remember RSB mentioning that writing the Kellhus chapters were especially difficult because obviously Kellhus can only be as smart as RSB but i think we can all agree book Kellhus >> intellect than his creator, no? I think RSB will limit Dunyain POVs in TNG also because of this.

If you dont think Kellhus is anything special then ok. I guess im not all that interested in non-canonical readings. As ive previously mentioned i hope the series ends with TUC. Ill certainly read TNG the second if/when it comes out but im fine with the series as is.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 20, 2017, 10:41:13 pm
I don't think Wilshire is being contrary for the sake of it. He is the type of guy that wants proof. Usually, that involves quoting (I know it's tiresome, but to prove a point....) and the like.

Though I will agree that I am a bit dismayed with Wilshire's take on the Anasurimbor. To me, and others in the thread, we seem to think RSB goes to great lengths to express the importance of said bloodline and that it was cream of the crop.among the Dunyain. I don't understand his take that any Dunyain would do, either.

I've already quoted it, so I won't again, but even Moe said Kellhus was the only/shortest path. We have to remember also the metaphysics of this world. Was Kellhus always destined for his role just like Kelmommas? I think so, without a doubt. Thats why I can't buy, "any Dunyain would do.".

Also, as I said in a previous post, Wilshire is correct in Moe having to condition his path. But, I don't see it as it being giving to him. I see it the opposite way. That the journey and trials were so difficult, that even when conditioned, it would take a "special" person to walk that path and not fail. A perilous path indeed. So perilous, that a Dunyain who made mistakes he could not undo, went through pins to make sure his son did not do the same. And, I feel Wilshire is even being a bit unfair in his evaluation of PoN Kellhus. Kellhus deduced a whole lot from very little. If anything reread The Trackless Steppe section of TDTCB, starting at the mound and ending when saved by the Conryinians. Kellhus was no slouch in his improvsation and hand to hand combat. Of course, he needed Cnaüir to tea h him war, that was part of Moe's conditioning, imho. All in all, I think Wilshire could give the man a little more cred. Yet, he doesn't have to and I am enjoying this thread immensely.

ETA: I love long posts Banhammer! ;)
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TLEILAXU on December 20, 2017, 10:42:04 pm
Quote
I think the character of Kellhus outran RSBs ability to contain him and thus we saw a dramatic reduction in Kellhus POV chapters in these books because of that
That's what you do when you deal with post-human intellects/beings, you tell their story from the POVs of more baseline humans.

Quote
I think RSB will limit Dunyain POVs in TNG also because of this.
I hope not. Really stoked for more Dûnyain after TGO revealed that not only are they Bene Gesserit rip-offs, they also made their own axolotl tanks. Curious to see if they will start creating new Tekne creatures/artifacts, and also curious about potential flashbacks to their lives in Ishuäl.

Quote
I've already quoted it, so I won't again, but even Moe said Kellhus was the only/shortest path. We have to remember also the metaphysics of this world. Was Kellhus always destined for his role just like Kelmommas? I think so, without a doubt. Thats why I can't buy, "any Dunyain would do.".
It's really quite simple imo. Moënghus (not the Simpsons character Moe) went into the probability trance (emphasis on probability) -> Thousandfold thought; the Anasûrimbors are prodigies among Dûnyain -> Moënghus needed Kellhus to maximize the probability of success.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 20, 2017, 10:51:06 pm
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
It's really quite simple imo. Moënghus (not the Simpsons character Moe) went into the probability trance (emphasis on probability) -> Thousandfold thought; the Anasûrimbors are prodigies among Dûnyain -> Moënghus needed Kellhus to maximize the probability of success.

Yea, that's been my stance. Wilshire needs the convincing.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TaoHorror on December 21, 2017, 02:38:58 am
Hey, I thought of something for the Kellhus is a super cool awesome dude camp of thought on this ... he was the first to not experience the goad when looking into the IF.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2017, 02:58:09 am
Tao, as much as I am in the Kellhus is special camp....that wasn't because of him. Its because he was being inhabited by Ajokli at the time. Hence, seeing his self as a descending hunger, a soul muncher, one of the 100.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: H on December 21, 2017, 12:22:28 pm
Could it be that we are conflating the idea of Kellhus being "special" and Kellhus being "exceptional?"

Kellhus is clearly "special," in that he is an Anisurimbor, he is one of the Few, he was a "prodigy" among the Dunyain (whatever that means).  I don't think every Dunyain is all of those, although many probably are a couple of those.  In this sense, I do think Kellhus is not an "average" Dunyain.  Surely Dunyain abilities would most probably follow a bell curve?  Certainly then, Kellhus would inhabit the right side, whether or not he is at the top or only near the top is probably irrelevant in the grand scheme of things though.

However, this doesn't preclude that Kellhus is exceptional in every case.  Clearly Dunyain training fails to prepare him for a great deal of things, even right off the bat Kellhus nearly dies in the wilderness.  Is that a weakness of Kellhus himself, or his training?  We don't know, probably some of both though.  So, was Kellhus exceptionally suited to achieve Moe's goal?  There is no way to prove one way or the other.  Kellhus is flawed and has weaknesses.  What we are left to wonder then is about what the average ability level of the average Dunyain is.  And then ask, would that be sufficient to achieve what Kellhus achieved?

I don't think the average Dunyain would have been able to achieve what Kellhus did.  I think one would have had to have been in the top, say, 15 to 20% in terms of raw mental ability, not to mention physical ability too.  Since we can only guess that the variance, I'd guess that their selective breeding would have yielded a very tall (and so narrow) bell curve.  This means that the tails will be correspondingly shorter.  So, there are few below-average Dunyain, but also few above-average (at least significantly so) if we presume that Dunyain breeding was working (and we probably should).  We also have to consider that there is (presumably) a "right wall" of literal human limit, but (and this might go right back to the point of Anisurimbors being special) that might be confounded with the mixture (and possibly selection for) Nonman blood.

TL;DR: Kellhus was a prodigy and was probably somewhat exceptional, but this doesn't mean he is exceptional in all ways.  The average Dunyan could probably have come close, but not as close as Kellhus did.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 21, 2017, 12:43:31 pm
Slate.com is a news/opinion website that is (in)famous for its contrary for the sake of being contrary takes, and that is what i feel you are doing here.
Ah. Thanks for the explanation. I don't know what to say other than that's not what i'm doing lol. Its not contrary for the sole purpose of being contrary. I am not a troll (re: Nixon Voice)

I am not going to play the "pull a quote out of 7 books and defend a specific line reading" game here. Ill just say that, again, the scions of a single house throughout the 7 books are seen as special because the books are about those very people. You are asking me to prove a negative, imo.
Quote or don't, I just wanted you to expand a bit. (and fwiw I feel like I gave myself the task of proving the negative). So, good enough for me

I think the character of Kellhus outran RSBs ability to contain him and thus we saw a dramatic reduction in Kellhus POV chapters in these books because of that.
He has some interviews out there where he mentioned he didn't want to put any Kellhus POVs for pretty much this reason. The problem was that people liked Kellhus too much, so he had to include some bits of him being a jackass to uphold some disbelief. Imagine how people would have reacted with no Kellhus POVs through to TUC lol.

If you dont think Kellhus is anything special then ok. I guess im not all that interested in non-canonical readings. As ive previously mentioned i hope the series ends with TUC. Ill certainly read TNG the second if/when it comes out but im fine with the series as is.
Totally fair.

@MSJ
I do certainly appreciate quotes, as much for my sake as anyone else's, but (generally speaking) I mostly just want a bit of exposition that at least leaves open the possibility of commentary and discussion.


There's absolutely a more charitable way to read Kellhus than what I posited here.
I think I might do some re-evaluation of Moenghus next :).

Oh, for posterity, it turns out I made a thread 4 years ago about Kellhus in TDTCB (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1164.msg13371#msg13371) specifically, though for a slightly different reason.

The average Dunyan could probably have come close, but not as close as Kellhus did.
Very succinct. I like it.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Cuttlefish on December 21, 2017, 02:29:18 pm
The problem was that people liked Kellhus too much, so he had to include some bits of him being a jackass to uphold some disbelief. Imagine how people would have reacted with no Kellhus POVs through to TUC lol.

That's interesting, I thought I was the only person in this forum who liked him
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Wilshire on December 21, 2017, 02:43:27 pm
The problem was that people liked Kellhus too much, so he had to include some bits of him being a jackass to uphold some disbelief. Imagine how people would have reacted with no Kellhus POVs through to TUC lol.

That's interesting, I thought I was the only person in this forum who liked him

Specifically, I was referring to beta readers who read TDTCB without the benefit of any Kellhus POVs.

Generally, there are definitely plenty of people here who like Kellhus. You are not alone!
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TaoHorror on December 21, 2017, 03:07:56 pm
Tao, as much as I am in the Kellhus is special camp....that wasn't because of him. Its because he was being inhabited by Ajokli at the time. Hence, seeing his self as a descending hunger, a soul muncher, one of the 100.

Work with me! Yeah, it's been discussed ad nauseam, but still can't pinpoint when the horns took over, sorry about that.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: TaoHorror on December 21, 2017, 03:10:04 pm
The problem was that people liked Kellhus too much, so he had to include some bits of him being a jackass to uphold some disbelief. Imagine how people would have reacted with no Kellhus POVs through to TUC lol.

That's interesting, I thought I was the only person in this forum who liked him

( raises hand ) ... I want to have Kellhus' baby!
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2017, 03:13:17 pm
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Work with me! Yeah, it's been discussed ad nauseam, but still can't pinpoint when the horns took over, sorry about that.

Ok, ill work with ya. Maybe he had become strong enough of a soul to become a Ciphrang/God on the Outside. Matter of fact, he probably was now that I think on it.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: Dora Vee on December 21, 2017, 04:24:13 pm
I didn't care about Kellhus either way until the Unholy Consult.
Title: Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2017, 04:44:21 pm
Quote from:  Dora Vee
I didn't care about Kellhus either way until the Unholy Consult.

Well, I think its less that anyone cared about him, and more about what his intentions were.