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News/Announcements / Re: New Bakker Website
« on: November 08, 2018, 03:18:39 pm »
Needs some merch! I would totally buy a Chorae.
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I just realized, rereading this now that I think I misunderstood the intent of the tread.
I mean, my earlier post asked about if sins unseen still damn, which I actually think I am wrong on, because I twisted the question in my head. The Nonmen dug deep for reasons, one of which was to avoid the sight of the gods. So, indeed, it seems logical that sins committed out of sight are unknown. But that wasn't the question.
I think the question was, does being out of sight keep you from being damned? And to this, I think the answer is actually still no. It's why it is important that the No-God stops the cycle of souls, but doesn't actually "blind" the gods. Sin marks you. Once marked, you stay that way, until absolved somehow or you die. What the No-God does isn't absolution though, it's annihilation.
The Fanim do not consider the Gods to be Gods, they call them demons in a religious sense, and their views on Ciphrang as actual existing entities are unknown (at least I don't currently remember them being expressed).
Psatma is a good point, yes, and she is much closer to Kellhus than Harweel because of her direct line to the divine. That said, she makes a clear distinction between the Gods and Ciphrang. She is a believer. Kellhus isn't.
My point is, when Kellhus talks about the Outside and its agencies, his words cannot be viewed in the context of common beliefs. They should be viewed metaphysically, using cutting edge knowledge about the workings of Earwa. Harweel or even the priests of the Thousand Temples can neither corroborate nor dispute Kellhus, they are not in possession of enough information to do so. Someone like Psatma is a better counterpoint, but her arguments are inherently tainted by her beliefs, which are irrational by definition. The Nonmen would also serve as a source of relevant information here.
"If he were a demon, then Zeum should arm for immediate war, now, before he achieved his immediate goals, for demons were simply Hungers from the abyss, insatiable in their pursuit of destruction."
Knowledge and ignorance are really the only things that we are shown makes sin. I think MSJ can help you out with that one.
Sorcery, on the other hand, we have no idea if it makes you damned or not. We know it makes you marked, but we have less information on The Mark than we do on damnation. I suspect the two phenomenon are largely separate - it just so happens that most people use magic to kill people, and schoolmen/quya tend to be knowledgeable people. Both attributes leading to damnation - sorcery is merely the means, not the cause.
Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.That is precisely why I made a distinction here. People talk about Ciphrang feasting on souls. They most certainly do not talk about the Gods that way, and Ajokli is a God. Now, Kellhus does refer to the Gods in all kinds of manners that mark them as no more than Ciphrang on a bigger scale, but Kellhus is the only one in-universe who does that.
Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE. Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.While I agree it's what Harweel meant, I don't think he and Kellhus are talking about the same thing at all. Kellhus is just clearly in possession of much more information pertaining to the Outside. His perspective is not at all equal to Harweel's, it's the difference between the informed and the uninformed here.
My thought is that it has something to do with her personally. Thinking back to the idea that knowledge is what makes sin, Serwa is painfully aware of her actions and their repercussions. She's aware of the falseness of her father, that he isn't a god but a man playing god's game. Shes aware that all the men in the ordeal is damned and does nothing to stop or, etc. etc. Her Ciphranginess comes from her quasi-dunyain ability to know her actions
Self inflicted wounds doesn't sound like something a Dunyain would do.
I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not. So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur. I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.
Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell
I'm increasingly starting to disregard Bakker's proclamations regarding his work. Anyway, if the No-God is unaware and unconscious, then whence its questioning? I mean sure, I could program my computer to periodically "ask" the same questions asked by the No-God, and that wouldn't mean my computer has consciousness or self-awareness, but to claim that's what's going on with the No-God is simply... lame. Perhaps the soul within the No-God is a separate entity from the No-God? I think I like that interpretation best of all.I completely understand your problem with the premise, but it is what it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
Bakker's just using it basically as is.