This connection has only occurred to me twice. Until now, that is. Here is my evidence for considering Cunoroi/Dunyanic interaction.
"To embrace mystery was one thing, to render it divine was quite another. What the Nonman said sounded too much like Kellhus, and too little like what Achamian knew of Nonmen mystery cults." p. 495-496, TJE
"We are Many!" the Erratic roared. "We are legion! What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability! A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One." p. 890, WLW
And now, while I was looking for a response to Blackstone's 5 tribes question:
Legion: A Dunyain term referring to the preconscious sources of the conscious thought. p. 462, TTT Glossary LE
So... Did the Nonmen found the Dunyain order? Did the Nonmen move on Ishual on force or stumble upon it? Did the Dunyain send another son to dominate, to condition Ishterebinth long ago?
Aside, have the Dunyain Pragma conditioned the very World from their fastness? Kellhus might simply be the final run on permutations considered for millennia.
Madness, that has been something stuck in my craw for some time. *What* does Akka know about Nonmen mystery cults? Do we ever get some elucidation there?
Or will this require us meeting the Intact.
Hmm...
Crackpot theory:
Maybe that's why the Consult now control Ishterebinth and Ishual is destroyed. The Nonmen came across the Dunyain and tried to adopt their philosophies and mental control to cope with the trauma of their erraticism. The Consult got frightened and reacted quickly, dominating Ishterebinth and destroying Ishual. (They'd certainly have the resources) Kellhus is actually sending his daughter and Mog to meet up with the Ishterebinth resistance movement that is allied with the few remaining Dunyain and together they'll regain control of the Mansion, honor the Niom, and retake Dagliash.
Sci - What is a nonman mystery cult? I thought they worshiped the cracks between the Gods, which doesn't really sound like a mystery cult so much as a way of avoiding damnation.
I think the Nonmen mystery cults probably reflect ancient human mystery cults of our own world. Orgies, Drugs, and living Transcendence ;).
However, sciborg, Bakker has made a definite pattern of only allowing in-context narration from our POVs. Like how Achamian clearly knows about the 144,000 of legend yet never mused upon this once until WLW or the Judging Eye - something which clearly actually has to do with historical prophecy. Now these could be things he learned in the interim. But I feel like he'd didn't do anything but Dream and chronicle for twenty years.
I just assume Achamian knows basically everything and will let us know all in good time.
Well, I doubt he has much reason to think of some obscure legend about 144,000 souls unless it comes up in his life.
Quote from: sciborg2Madness, that has been something stuck in my craw for some time. *What* does Akka know about Nonmen mystery cults? Do we ever get some elucidation there?
Or will this require us meeting the Intact.
Achamian continually knows more than we the readers are ever privy to. Need-to-know paranoia runs so deep in this man it is narrative.
Well, we have a good candidate for the founding of the Dunyain and perhaps that candidate had a good reason to do so.
Nil Giccas. The connection of his philosophy of Legion could predate the existence of the Dunyain. We know that The Tutelage ended because of the rape of Omindalea when Nil Giccas refused to turn over the male nonman who'd done the deed (perhaps also Nil Giccas?)
Ishterebinth was the seat of Nil Giccas and shares a prefix with Ishual (exalted grotto) and is the closest civilization to Ishual. Nil Giccas was a great friend of the anasurimbor celmomas and may have informed him of Ishual and offered it as a gift, or they may have conspired together in its construction reasoning that the best way to hide from the Consult was right under their nose.
Let's suggest that Nil Giccas never wanted the tutelage to end, and had started an ascetic cult in secret. However, he didn't want to tutor men on sorcery but on theology, I think he hoped that men would master it the way they mastered the gnosis. When Sauglish fell, he gathered those of his cult that survived and led them to Ishual.
Kellhus has figured this all out. He never knew about Ses' map, and just figured that the best way to help Akka and Mim find Ishual was to give them the most powerful Quya as their guide, particularly as he'd helped to found it.
Alternate/side theory: After the rape of omindalea, Nil Giccas took in the child. However, he could not raise it amongst nonmen at Ishterebinth because a child nonman, and female nonman would be immediately noticed. So he constructed an exalted grotto for the only nonman female to live. he promptly bedded her and eventually produced the anasurimbor line. The anasurimbor kept their seat in this secret fastness for several centuries before they ventured out, conquered, and became the ur-king of the umerian empire. The place was known only to their family, which is why ganrelka returned there to try and hide out the apocalypse.
Alternate crackpot: When legend says that Nil'Giccas was embittered by the loss of his sons in 2132, perhaps legend means Nil'Giccas half-human sons--anasurimbor princes--rather than cunoroi sons. :)
Well, look to the prologue of TDTCB. I started re-reading it today. M confronts Kellhus after killing his Sranc, observes him after hearing his name, says "I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power, eh?" (p. 27) Granted, he could easily be talking about Kell's silence at the time, but it seems a bit too, mm, convenient in that light. Given the events later in the series and this conversation, perhaps there's something more. The entire prologue is a mirror of the latter part of the series anyway: ex. Leweth and Aurang's calling the world an outrage, etc.
I'll buy that there could be some Nonman influence on the Dunyain philosophy, but if there is it was all from prior to the apocalypse. The Dunyain had no idea that Nonmen existed when Kellhus left Ishual, as evident from Kell's reaction to (Mekeritrig?). Prior to entering Ishual, the Dunyain knew magic existed and no doubt knew that Nonmen did as well, but they erased it from their history.
The Anasurimbor existed long before Ishual did. One of the Anasurimbor's built it during the Apocalypse.
Well, Blackstone, I'll just suggest that unless - probably until - we are able to understand more of the Dunyain hierarchy, we just don't know what the Dunyain knew. Were Kellhus and Moenghus even among the upper tiers of the Dunyain considering their ages and the ages of the Pragma? Or are they more pawns than otherwise?
As it stands we just know what Kellhus knew. As far as POV time goes, that ain't much.
As far as connections between the Nonmen and the Dunyain go, I always wondered if there is not a bit Nonmen blood in the Dunyain people. I remember Kelhus considered having children with normal women a bit problematic and choose Esmenet because she was a good fit. And even with her, some of his offspring is pretty weird. Also the Nonmen tried having children with human concubines after the womb plague if I remember correctly. Maybe the Dunyain bred their people for compatibility with the Nonmen.
Quote from: lockesnowFrom a Bakker post on that forum (this never made it into the official published appendix):QuoteThe Siqu are the Nonmen advisors to the ancient Norsirai Kings during the Nonman Tutelage...
You sent me digging for this one. I thought I would post this little teaser of what to expect in the apendices to TTT:
820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman
Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II
(787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first
daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the
house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees
to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to
return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II
expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire.
Omindalea conceives by the union and dies
bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-
1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave
conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted
by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir.
- The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of
the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a
consonantal alphabet, c.835.
Well, the Dunyain must all have some NonMan blood by mingling with the Anasurimbor line. As for their history prior to Ishual, they don't know it themselves as they burned all their books and destroyed all references of the past. So their philosophy might be an influence by NonMan culture that they can't trace, or their shared genetics driving them to draw similar conclusions :).
This actually makes a lot of sense. Kellhus was sent out to kill Moenghus, but the Dunyain could have already considered the route Kellhus would follow. The domination of the Three Seas and Ishterebinth could be one, large precalculated play, the end-game of which could be the domination of Golgotterath (to destroy it, appropriate the Tekne, or leave Earwa using The Ark, who knows).
However then when you look at Kellhus' character and how woefully uninformed he was at the beginning of The Darkness That Comes Before, it becomes harder to believe that they would be a part of it; unless he was raised that way for that specific purpose.
It seems to be a bit of a stretch to suppose that the Dunyain could calculate Kellhus' movements exactly 20 years in advance, and account for any possible deviations in which he might die or just do something else. However if there was anyone who do it, it would be them.
I always thought it was him who destroyed Ishual, or he simply told the consult where it was so that they could do so; or after 'launching' their Kellhus rocket, the Dunyain simply let themselves all die as their purpose had been served.
It is difficult to figure out Kellhus' goal in all of this, when by all rights none of it should even matter to him. The Dunyain aren't compulsed by anything (power, wealth, love, etc, mean nothing to him, much less the destruction of Earwa), so it leaves the question of who exactly is calling the shots behind the Dunyain; is it a Nonman, the consult, or a third party?
It is safe to speculate that Kellhus knows that damnation exists, so now that he is a shaman, perhaps he too wants to escape judgment (the only thing more absolute than the Dunyain mode of thought)?
My head hurts now so I'm going to revisit this later.
Quote from: AceAs far as connections between the Nonmen and the Dunyain go, I always wondered if there is not a bit Nonmen blood in the Dunyain people. I remember Kelhus considered having children with normal women a bit problematic and choose Esmenet because she was a good fit. And even with her, some of his offspring is pretty weird. Also the Nonmen tried having children with human concubines after the womb plague if I remember correctly. Maybe the Dunyain bred their people for compatibility with the Nonmen.
I wouldn't doubt this. I think in the glossary of The Warrior Prophet there is mention of one successful crossbreeding between humans and Nonmen. S/he could have very well been an ancestor of the Anasurimbor line. Too bad Mimara was already knocked up, or I would posit that she might be carrying Nil'giccas' child (correct me if that is the wrong name, I haven't read the books in a while).
Quote from: lockesnow
Kellhus has figured this all out. He never knew about Ses' map, and just figured that the best way to help Akka and Mim find Ishual was to give them the most powerful Quya as their guide, particularly as he'd helped to found it.
If he has access to Seswatha through Akka, he has access to Seswatha through the Mandate, which is part of his empire. If he wanted to, he could learn everything he wanted about Seswatha, and I assume he has (if I’m reading this access properly).
The hybridization event referenced was the only one of its kind recorded. It occurred with the pairing of a male human and a female cunuroi. The resulting child was a daughter, named Cimoira (Which sounds superficially like Mimara but it's probably nothing meaningful).
Given real world cross-species fertilizations, it's possible that that particular gender pairing (human male/cunuroi female) is the only way to get viable offspring. Ligers (Lion/tiger) require a specific gender combination to work, for example; though I can't remember the specifics.
From the prologue and some of Bakker's interviews, personally I would doubt any direct nonman connection. The initiation of the dunyain seems to be from war survivors tired of the ways of the world and wanting to shut out all external influences, including powerful beings, magic, lies, etc.
And Bakker said in an interview that there is no dunyain hierarchy (I'll add - accept for maybe the obvious adult/teacher and child/student relationship that we've seen in flashbacks).
Bakker is a lying liar who lies, clearly, Transcendiot ;). Pragma, a title, denotes a sort of hierarchy - perhaps, specifically the one you highlighted.
While I'm interested in the idea of Nonmen founding the Dunyain, I offered my evidence in suggestion that the Dunyain/Nonmen interaction happened after the Apocalypse. That in the millenia since, the Dunyain have conditioned Ishterebinth - before the Three Seas.
Also, The Sharmat & Borric, you, sirs, are wrong. Though everyone does seem to forget Sirwitta - who, I've come to believe after rereading the Cuno-Inchoroi, was the first to discover the Inverse Fire.
Nonmen Tutelage - The great period of Norsirai-Cunuroi trade, education, and strategic alliances, beginning in 555 and ending with the Expulsion in 825 (following the famed Rape of Omindalea).
My italics on that one.
Though, Borric, you are right in saying that the quoted entry never made it into the Glossary.
Also, from Kuniuri: (he [Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I] lived to the age of 178, the reputed result of the Nonman blood in his veins).
Not off topic at all; 'Dunyain and the Nonmen' sounds like a great band name...
Wait is Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I an entry published somewhere? Or is that another one of those secrets that were taken out? I feel like I have read that (Maybe on the wikia that has a few smatterings of information, mainly a compiled timeline). I wonder how long it would take the effects of nonman blood to wear off through the generations, and for that matter, what other effects aside from a long life? 178 is pretty old, maybe 3x the lifetime of a normal man would be my guess. 60 sounds like a reasonable lifespan.
I can't even remember if it's specifically said what the Rape of Omindalea was. I didn't take it as a literal rape. Even if it was, you'd think offspring resulting from it would be worth a specific mention.
Well, I quoted the canon available, excepting this:
Nanor-Ukkerja I (1378-1556) - "Hammer of Heaven" (Kuniuric from Umeritic nanar hukisha) The first Anasurimbor High King, whose defeat of the Scintya in 1408 would lead to the founding of Kuniuri and begin what most scholars regard as the longest-reigning dynasty in recorded history. (p591, TTT Glossary)
You know, TTT is a really interesting book to have around lol. Its probably two bucks as a used book store. Or Bakker gets paid at full price book stores ;).
The Sharmat, the only piece of this which is missing is the entry that Borric quoted on page 2 of this thread - that as far as I'm concerned based on the old Three-Seas, I'd suggest, is at least semi-canon. At least on par with interview answers?
Could still just be myth and rumors. The appendices aren't objective.
Quote from: The SharmatCould still just be myth and rumors. The appendices aren't objective.
Yeah this topic has been discussed several times throughout these forums.
And to be honest I got TTT at a used book store for $2 the year it came out. For some reason they had like 10 copies of it. They have never had another copy of TTT that I've seen since then, though a the first 2 books of the series keep showing up from time to time and then disappearing. Makes me happy to seem them come and go.
A Dunyain rules in Ishterebinth... This is my newest obsession :twisted: .
Quote from: MadnessA Dunyain rules in Ishterebinth... This is my newest obsession :twisted: .Please, continue
Well, there are the two quotes I mentioned in the starting of this thread.
However, I was randomly reading Bakker the other night, looking for theories in imbibe, and I read this, which includes the latter quote:
"I am Incariol ... Cleric! ... You think me the cripple! ... You think Cleric the ruin of someone whole! But you are wong, Seswatha! I am the Truth ... We are Many! ... We are legion! What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability! A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One ... Only when memory is stripped away! ... Only then is Being revealed as pure Becoming! Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our Soul! ... Only then does the Darkness sing untrammeled! Only then!
'And yet you seek memories!'
To be! Being is not a choice!
'But you claim Being is deception!'
Yes! ... That is Becoming" (WLW, p890).
I was actually underwhelmed by this scene the first time I'd read it. As I've reread and reread TSA since WLW's release, I've grown to actually achieve some level of understanding but initially I simply ascribed this passage to a description of Erraticism - foolishness, on my part.
I'm slowly realizing it isn't.
The quote above reflects the beginning of the fight between Achamian and Nil'giccas... or is it Cleric?
If memory binds as Bakker, and pretty much all cognitive psychology agree, then our "selves" have no narrative hold on individuality without it. So in conditions of anterograde amnesia - inability to make new memories - it's likely that some kind of "most recently saved," or last longstanding change in cortical organization, self exists in a temporal isolation far worse than our own. That is, every moment, person, thing, would be perpetually new, though you would engage these circumstances with many of the idiosyncrasies of some "you pre-amnesia" - as far as I, someone not afflicted, can imagine based on many first and second hand descriptions. Wonder or horror. But the brain has no other baseline to construct from.
Now Bakker twists this slightly with Erraticism, suggesting reflections of some of the stranger things described in research. Its evident that learning is still possible, despite anterograde amnesias - theorized and documented as reflecting different neural structures for memory. In the case of Nonmen, episodic memory seems to rely on visceral emotional experiences, trumping the damage and forming new memories or, at least, giving the Nonmen excess to past memories. Otherwise, Nonmen would truly be just raging Alzheimer patients - throwing sorcery instead of things.
The problem is that Cleric is describing a unity of self, some kind of coherent narrative, which is providing him with an understanding of his present... something that would seem impossible for traditional Erratics who rely entirely on their "elju," or book.
Is this an idea the Nonmen have developed in the millennia of trying to maintain conscious sanity?
It actually gives me shivers to think about this as it changes the game considerably. Cleric would be something, someone, entirely new, a novel identity. And this reads very much like someone trying to justify his existence over Nil'giccas'.
How might that have transpired? The Nonmen aren't about becoming a whole another mental race, they are dead set on vengeance, on reclaiming their past.
But if a Race of Thought-Dancers found the Nonmen, they could help the Nonmen develop strategies in abstraction, in order to "combat their failing memories". And they could use these new entities, these super-powerful creatures, unchained from any moral, philosophic, or historical constraints of the Nonmen, however they wish...
"Only then does the Darkness sing untrammeled! Only then!"
If the Dunyain truly ruled in Ishterebinth in this fashion, one or a number, and created new "selves" from the fractured psyches of the Nonmen, then they effectively have their own Dunyain/Skin-Spy/Quya, who could deal with the Great Ordeal and the Consult as if they still were Nonmen... WhAAaOooOOOoooO - I really wish there was a crazy rolling smiley face.
And now I shall bow out. I hope you all enjoy my Nerdanelling for the day. Put that in yer pipe and smoke it!
Back to my own writings 8-).
An interesting idea that I rather like. But (there is always a but):
Dunyain ruling Nonmen, presumably in Ishterebinth, would cause a few problems.
I wish we knew more about the Dunyain, but from what we 'know' (have been led to believe at least) is that the Dunyain are not a political entity at all. They do not want, nor need, outside influence. Thus the isolation of Ishual.They have no other purpose other than attaining The Absolute.
Sorcery? All evidence destroyed. Apparently not deemed necessary to achieve their goal.
War? Who needs war when your only desire is to be isolated from every other form of humanity.
Religion/History? Nothing but forms of control. Not useful for the Dunayin.
Politics? No need for politics when everything is known by everyone.
They desire to be hidden, so they wouldn't often be sending scouts around the area. If they found some kind of settlement, they would probably run away never to return, and probably exile and/or kill the fellow that found it. Contamination and all that.
Even if they did stumble upon the Nonmen, why keep it hidden? Kell didn't know what sranc or Nonmen were (right?), so obviously it was at least not common knowledge. What would be the gain of keeping the majority of their populace in the dark, so to speak? The only thing I can think of is that the ruling class has some sort of agenda that is well hidden. Again though, need more info to do more than speculate on that.
Then we have the Inchoroi, who have been ruling Ishterebinth for a long time. They would notice some super smart 'slaves' that infiltrated the ranks of the rabble the Nonmen may be keeping around. Especially when they started trying to do what they must do in order to control all circumstance.
Also, controlling Nonmen with normal Dunyain techniques would probably be at least a bit effective than when used on humans. Not really having much of a history or religion or much of a political structure themselves, there would be much less levers to control them with.
Though I do certainly agree that passage as a lot in it upon further inspection, I see a different path, though my theory is much less thought out than yours, as is typical.
I find it more likely that the Dunyain and Nonmen had once been close, or that they had some common goal and worked together to achieve it (The Absolute or something of that nature). However as more and more Nonmen lost their memories, the Dunyain found them as more of a burden than and asset, and started leaving the Nonmen behind. Then first apocalypse hits and severs, quite cleanly, the remaining ties they used to have. They had been looking for a new home for some time, somewhere isolated, and blah blah blah, suddenly Ishual.
At least we can agree that the words chosen for this monologue cannot be ignored.
Legion, Truth, Darkness.
Being -> becoming, once the past dies. Rather similar to The Absolute.
As is stripping away memories, when you consider that only by going beyond all memory, to the very beginning of thought and being can one have a self moving soul.
When the past dies: If tall the past dies, what is before you?
I believe I mentioned in this thread previously that I limit my theory of this Dunyain takeover of the Nonmen to the last twenty years.
Also, the quote from TWP, where Aurang tells Sarcellus that there is little that Nil'giccas does that they (the Consult) do not know is hardly "the Inchoroi are ruling Ishterebinth."
Seriously though, Wilshire, I'm basically just spouting fantasies lol. Thought out theory... or madness?
I will counter though with the inevitable realization that even if there is no hidden heirarchy within the Dunyain, one of them, at some time, is going to advocate something... progressive.
Like the fact that the Dunyain are ignoring fundamental variables of reality in their self-mastery. That both Dunyain that have left Ishual have mastered so much more circumstance. He who commands all attains the self-moving soul, no?
Quote from: MadnessSeriously though, Wilshire, I'm basically just spouting fantasies lol. Thought out theory... or madness?Didnt mean to offend, just messing around.
Here, though, theory and madness are pretty much the same thing.
Something progressive? 2000 years of isolation and then they suddenly decide to be progressive and take over the Nonmen. That seems like a bit of a snap judgment, which they are not typically prone too.
Sorcery: Why awaken the gods to you when it would be so much easier to hide. Damnation or not, the Dunyain of yore must have known something of the gods. They probably just decided it would further isolate them. Wouldn't want any pesky scrying, in or out. It would just be distracting. And with goals that span millennium, distractions are not what you want.
Inchoroi: I guess I could have over stepped that statement. Still though, who power in Earwa is the one that everyone sees? Its always someone behind the throne, and I took Aurang's statement to mean much more than simply having a few spies following around Nil'.
You dont seem interested in this topic though so I guess i'll cease and desist.
You're mistaking something ambiguous in my writing for apathy and offense, I think.
I'm absolutely interested in this, and really most any TSA topic. I wasn't offended in the least, just thought you shouldn't downplay the strength of your own theory in comparison to mine.
I think that the mediating moment - if all is as it seems, which is increasingly unlikely - is Moenghus the Elder leaving Ishual, when Sranc stumble upon the mountain fastness fifty years ago, to assess the threat of exposure. He returns to the Gates and allegedly is turned away because he's been tainted by the outside world.
This is apparently a new event - exiling one of their membership. Pretty novel.
After this, in terms of novelty enchroaching on the Project, there is then a flurry of activity, unlike Ishual has seen in 2000 years. They send one of their best, a prodigy even among the Dunyain according to Bakker, to simply murder his father and then be useless to the Project. Or when the world came knocking, they realized that they can't ignore variables they are ignorant of that might exist, that affect them and their world even in their mundane isolation - like, say, the Outside?
Lol, don't let my wacky communication make you feel like I'm not interested... Probably no one is more avidly following speculation here at TSA than myself.
Outside sure, discovery sure. But it took Kell the apprehension of the consult, war, and sorcery to realize TTT. Assuming, as I do, that TTT is the inevitable choke point, the nexus of events, that the probability trance always leads (when all variables are know), I still dont see the dunyain taking over the Nonmen. Not in 20 years, not in 50. This for a few reasons.
It would take a lot of time for the rest of the Dunyain to reach TTT, mainly based on the assumption that they would have far less exposure, and fewer teachers, than Kell. It took Kell almost his entire journey to reach it, and even then it was something he was actively seeking out since his father was pointing him in that direction.
If not TTT, then what drove the Dunyain to such extremes (maybe a different definition of TTT), if TTT how did they achieve their understanding and why did it lead them to the Nonmen?
As for sending out their prodigal son, I think this can be explained by Moe's decades headstart. Only a true adept would be able to catch up and destroy him. That, and, perhaps a hope that Moe would have a the slightest weakness in the face of his son who he so desperately sought.
The Thousandfold Thought is something else entirely, which I'm not attempting to invoke here. I think, actually, that it would be impossible for the Dunyain to realize the Thought simply because of their isolation and their ignorance of all the variables you suggest and more.
However, they exiled a member because he threatened their perspectives... they send another because he threatens their isolation... this begs questions. If the Dunyain have ignored things, which threaten their isolation, have they also ignored things, which are crucial in the algebra of the Logos? The Dunyain of today's Earwa are much different than the Dunyain of two millenia past.
Again, fantasy. I'm basically looking for things, which might make this theory evident, so I'm going to cherry-pick any ambiguity.
You're probably right, after all.
However, all I'm saying is that it would be easy for a Dunyain to manipulate the minds of Nonmen - to create new identities out of fractured psyches.
We really don't know why the Dunyain would do anything - it strikes me as mighty stupid to embody outdated memes that ignore novel, contradictory information, which the Dunyain are explicitly following. We, as the reader, know they are wrong to isolate themselves, if they actually wish to use the Logos to escape circumstance.
What would or did the Dunyain do when they figured that out? It's not dependent on realizing the Thousandfold Thought, which itself accounts for "all" circumstances, apparently, as analogous of the Golden Path.
Unless the nonmen are akin to Toydarian from starwars, and mind tricks dont work on them. =P
From what I can tell, magic and the outside are poorly understood in 4000 Earwa as it was in 2000. There isn't a ton of extra knowledge out there that would be new to the current Dunyain that the old would have missed. A lot of this is because of the first apocalypse, which really stalled human development in all things.
Why do we know their isolation was wrong? I submit that it was the correct decision. The dunyain of past knew all the variables. Afterall they witnessed the first apocalypse. They probably made a very informed decision on what was the shortest path to a self-moving soul. And who is to say that their entire purpose was to avoid the world until a self-moving soul was achieved. Perhaps they saw that regardless of which path the world took, their involvement was not necessarily or pertinent.
Though I doubt the Dunyain of yore had the mental capabilities required to obtain TTT or even a proper probability trance as we see today.
Lol damn Toydarian.
If they aren't wrong about isolation, then all Kellhus has accomplished, including the Thousandfold Thought is worthless to the Project.
Whereas, I'd hazard, that Kellhus is as close to a self-moving soul as we've seen thus far.
Is he really though? Or does he have so much outside stimuli, so much outside influence pressing in onto him even has he pushes out, that he is actually further from The Absolute than any other?
By trying to control everything, he gains nothing. A self-moving soul is not the absolute control of circumstance, but the control of self above all influences. By isolating themselves for so long, the Dunyain have limited the number of variables they need to control to entirely remove themselves form the sphere of influence that is the world, the past, the present, the future, and the outside. Kell must rise above more, because by acting onto more forces, more forces are in turn acting on him.
I also think that Kell is worthless to the Project. Utterly. He is so contaminated, so currupt, so involved in saving the world the the dunyain mission is all but forgotten to him. A true Dunyain does not care about the end of the world, the lives of millions, the fate of the universe, only that they remain outside of everything.
You have me at a crux...
A self-moving soul comes before any and all circumstance, which might affect it. The God or Gods have been theorized as the self-moving soul, not that that has particular bearing.
This seems to necessitate exposure to those circumstances?
The god/gods may be important but my grasp on that particular subject is limited so I've been avoiding it. I agree they could be considered self moving.
Yes I guess it would be rather disappointing to reach some point of absolute knowledge, to master all that is known, only to realize that there is still darkness. Like checking off everything on your to-do list, like for household chores, only to find out you forgot about a whole section of your house.
But I have argued elsewhere that perhaps the Dunyain actually know of this limitation, or at least the Dunyains of old did. Why then the isolation? Because they saw that trying to solve this Absolute equation with every variable would make an answer impossible to find. However, if you ignored some parts of the equation, it allows you to come up with partial answers, partial liberation from the events of before and after. Then, with your new found knowledge, they could go back and solve the rest of their problem, with only the most elusive elements remaining unknown.
Or it was planned as some kind of iterative method, where although there is not enough information to solve it outright, if you assume a value or two for a couple unknowns, you can get an answer. This answer can then be plugged back into your equation and ran again, getting a slightly more correct answer until you get out the same number you put in. Sorry for the vague math but its the best I could do.
My point I guess is that the Dunyain may have been trying to become self-moving souls in steps:
Step one, mastery of self and past (emotions, thoughts, histories and the like).
Step two, mastery of others (war, politics, other species).
Step three, the metaphysical (god/gods, magic, the outside).
In this way they can solve slightly less complex issues, and then use that base knowledge to help them master the more complex. Slowly controlling everything without being overwhelmed the the shear immensity of their own task. The old Dunyain would have seen this as the shortest path, making a whole population working on one step at a time was seen as faster than creating specialists in every field and then trying to combine knowledge once each individual became a master of a different subject.
Well, in favor of some of your ideas, then I guess its possible the current Dunyain higher-ups may have decided that they had gone as far as possible without more variables and began probing the world for the lost knowledge they would required. Like the Standard Model and the Higgs Boson, they knew something was missing and what it should look like, but they had no real knowledge of what they would find until they had found it.
Wow that got a lot more complex than I originally thought.
Makes alot of sense actually, Wilshire.
It would be why isolation is paramount until the second step is reached.
Excepting this from TDTCB - Kellhus' perspective:
“The Dünyain have hidden from the world for two millennia, and they would remain hidden, if they could, for all eternity. Yet thirty-one years ago, while I was still but a child, we were discovered by a band of Sranc. The Sranc were easily destroyed, but as a precaution, my father was sent into the wilderness to ascertain the extent of our exposure. When he returned some months later, it was decided that he must be exiled. He’d been contaminated, had become a threat to our mission. Three decades passed, and it was assumed he’d perished.”
The Dünyain frowned. “But then he returned to us, returned in a way that was unprecedented. He sent us dreams.”
“Sorcery,” Cnaüir said.
The Dünyain nodded. “Yes. Although we didn’t know this at the time. We knew only that the purity of our isolation had been polluted, that its source had to be found and eliminated.”
Cnaüir studied the man’s profile, which gently rocked to his horse’s canter. “So you’re an assassin.”
“Yes.”
When Cnaüir was silent, Kellhus continued, “You don’t believe me.”
How could he? How could he believe one who never truly spoke but steered and maneuvered, maneuvered and steered, endlessly?
“I don’t believe you.”
Kellhus turned to the surrounding expanses of grey-green plain. They had passed beyond the rolling pastures of the Kuoti and now crossed the great tablelands of the Jiünati interior. Aside from a small stream ahead and the thin palisade of brush and poplars along its sunken banks, the distances were as bland as an ocean’s. Only the sky, filled with clouds like sailing mountains, possessed depth.
“The Dünyain,” Kellhus said after a time, “have surrendered themselves to the Logos, to what you would call reason and intellect. We seek absolute awareness, the self-moving thought. The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance. And only the Dünyain possess this knowledge, plainsman. The world slumbers, enslaved by its ignorance. Only the Dünyain are awake. Moenghus, my father, threatens this" (TDTCB p383- 384).
We can debate the validity of Kellhus' perspective all day but Kellhus seems to drop much truth with Cnaiur throughout the books, using it it to confound the barbarian with "lies" of truth, as Cnaiur and ourselves pretty much think everything Kellhus says is a lie.
Now, obviously, we've also debated hierarchy in the Dunyain and how much influence Kellhus actually has when he's in Ishual. We know of at least that Pragma and Initiate are two of the titles taken by the Dunyain.
Does this denote as well a hierarchy of information availability?
Into the realm of almost pure speculation now. A fun place to go, since we've gone about as far as possible without.
First though, based purely on the text you quoted, it would seem they dunyain don't want/need all the variables to complete their project. But that would really be an anticlimactic end to this conversation.
I agree all of Kell's words are subject to some debate of validity, but like you said we could debate it all day and I dont find that particularly interesting. For this purpose I think I'm just going to say that this passage is truthful.
To me there must be some kind of hierarchy. There simply must be, if nothing other than age and accumulation of experience separating out the casts. Still though, someone or some group must control the training. Probably the elders, the wisest, the most experienced, the best of the best. Like I said, even if all things were almost equal, age for the dunyain may be the main factor separating these categories, as the young must be taught.
Im assuming, then, that there is a hierarchy beyond simply being an initiate and then suddenly passing a test or two and becoming a fully empowered dunyain. I guess then, as children are taught about the logos, the Project, etc. so too must other information be revealed in steps. Making some kind of information gradient, with low concentration down at the bottom where the young are, and approaching 'all knowledge' only at the extreme heights of their order. I think this is reasonably likely.
Just like how children are not thrust into the thousand thousand halls until they have apprehended the Logos, the probability trance, and mastery (more or less) of their own body and mind, so too must other information be revealed slowly as to not overwhelm each subject.
In this way I don't think it is necessarily some kind of big conspiracy of hidden agendas, but rather just a natural unfolding of cause and affect. After all, "the more you know, the more you know you dont know", and, "Keep it simple, stupid."
This assumes that Kellhus is a top-tier Dunyain, though not yet a Pragma himself apparently. That he doesn't know about sorcery or the Outside as he doubts the existence of these things with Leweth and with Cnaiur.
But then you are right, Wilshire, the Dunyain give up everything. They repudiate history, culture, and society... So the ancient Dunyain likewise probably thought nothing of ditching the Gods, the Outside, sorcery.
I just think this is an error. Turning their backs on the world, ultimately solved nothing - if things are as they appear - and one of their number reaps all the rewards of their training while Ishual and the rest of them lie destroyed...
I dont think Kell was at the top at all. Not even close. He was a prodigy yes, but certainly not some kind of higher up. What King gets sent out as an assassin? I think his 'training' was largely unfinished, but as they say, the Dunyain had no choice but to send him.
Well, the Pragma withholding information is not a new idea.
However, the issue you raise is that to stay isolated and complete the Project, if it depends on isolation, the Dunyain should be afraid that Kellhus would return too?
They probably didn't expect him too. Best case scenario for them is that Moe and Kell kill each other. Worst case, Moe wins and they go to some plan B if they had one.
Even if he did kill Moe, Kell certainly wouldnt think that he could simply walk back to Ishual and be accepted. He likely knew it was a suicide mission. Perhaps this is what drove him to TTT. Just a task to occupy his mind, knowing that if he returned to Ishual he would either be killed or they would all die trying. He knew he could never achieve the goal of the Project, so he decided to tackle the most difficult issues confronting his childlike brethren.
I find it really, really difficult to believe that the Dunyain, ancient or modern, did intend to just stay in Ishual for all eternity with the Project... o.O
I agree. But what was their purpose? A war against the gods? Go all Philip Pullman and kill God and free humanity from heavens tyranny.
"Dunyain - A severe monastic sect that has repudiated history and animal appetite in the name of finding enlightenment through the control of all desire and all circumstance. Though the origins of the Dunyain are obscure (many think them the descendants of the ecstatic sects that arose across the Ancient North in the days preceding the Apocalypse), their belief system is utterly unique, leading some to conclude their original inspiration had to be philosophical rather than religious in any traditional sense.
Much of Dunyain belief follows from their interpretation of what they consider their founding principles. The Empirical Priority Principle (sometimes referred to as the Principle of Before and After) asserts that within the circle of the world, what comes before determines what comes after without exception. The Rational Priority Prince asserts that Logos, or Reason, lies outside on the circle of the world (though only in a formal and not an ontological sense). The Epistemological Principle asserts that knowing what comes before (via Logos) yields "control" of what comes after.
Given the Priority Principle, it follows that thought, which falls within the circuit of the before and after, is also determined by what comes before. The Dunyain therefore believe the will to be illusory, an artifact of the soul's inability to perceive what comes before it. The soul, in the Dunyain world view, is part of the world, and therefore as much driven by prior events as anything else. (This stands in stark contrast to the dominant stream of Three Seas and Ancient North thought, where the soul is taken to be, in Ajencis's words, "that which precedes everything.")
In other words, Men do not possess "self-moving souls." Far from a given, such a soul is an accomplishment for the Dunyain. All souls, they claim, possess conatus, the natural striving to be self-moving, to escape the circle of before and after. They naturally seek to know the world about them and so climb out of the circle. But a host of factors make outright escape impossible. The soul men are born with is too obtuse and clouded by animal passions to be anything other than a slave of what comes before. The whole point of the Dunyain ethos is to overcome these limitations and to become a self-moving soul - to attain what they call the Absolute, or the Unconditioned Soul.
But unlike those exotic Nilnameshi sects devoted to various other forms of "enlightenment," the Dunyain are not so naive as to think this can be attained within the course of a single lifetime. They think of this, rather, as multi-generational process. Quite early on they recognized that the instrument itself, the soul, was flawed, so they instituted a program of selective breeding for intellect and dispassion. In a sense the entire sect became a kind of experiment, isolated from the world to maintain control, with each prior generation training the next to limit of their capabilities, the idea being that over millenia they would produce souls that could climb furthur and furthur from the circle of of before and after. The hope was that eventually they would produce a soul utterly transparent to Logos, a soul capable of apprehending all the darknesses that come before" (TTT Glossary, p549-550).
"History (Dunyain) - The movement of human events through time. The significance of History for the Dunyain is found in the fact that past circumstance dominate and determine present actions, such that individuals continually find themselves "coming after," which is to say, at the mercy of events over which they have no control. The Dunyain believe that utter detachment from history is a necessary precondition for absolute awareness" (TTT Glossary, p 565-566).
Copied this from TTT Glossary. Sorry for any mistakes.
This might help us in our current speculative purposes. Bolded is my initial cherry-picking ;) - trying to help and recognize my biases. It reflects my opinions on their need to control all circumstance and the interpretation and selection of principles by generations following the ancient Dunyain. Also, much of what is written here, reflects in a major way the conversation happening in The Dunyain and Buddhism (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/the-dunyain-and-buddhism-t1247336.html), which blew up after KRST IS joined the Second Apocalypse.
The whole thing says you must first know everything that has come before in order to escape the cycle of before and after.
But then right at the end, the dunyain chose to isolate themselves from history as it was deemed that being apart of it subjected you to its control. Not to know all history and therefore come before it, but to remove themselves from it to stop its influence.
This does not sound like the rest of the entry.
Did the original dunyain deem that the use of magic would subject them to some kind of inescapable linkage to the chain, as history was seen?
Running out of source material for our use, Wilshire... Not to mention, as we've noted, that it's all subject to ambiguity and debate.
I agree with you about the History (Dunyain) entry. But maybe the ancient Dunyain weren't so informed yet and the founding principles were incomplete. Perhaps, the Pragma have not isolated themselves, or certain adepts, from the world as the others are led to believe.
Quote from: WilshireInto the realm of almost pure speculation now. A fun place to go, since we've gone about as far as possible without.
To me there must be some kind of hierarchy. There simply must be, if nothing other than age and accumulation of experience separating out the casts. Still though, someone or some group must control the training. Probably the elders, the wisest, the most experienced, the best of the best. Like I said, even if all things were almost equal, age for the dunyain may be the main factor separating these categories, as the young must be taught.
Following the inner logic of the shortest path means that every trained Dunyaini should, given the same set of circumstances take the exact same actions. If they can't do that they are failures. What need is there for hierarchy?
All paths are not equal. This is the lesson of the Thousand Thousand Halls. Those Dunyain who are not equally prepared by the same set of training die in the Labyrinth. Also, the Pragma have the ability to shape "circumstances" within Ishual. So they could always conceal a greater set of circumstances, no? Hierarchy of informatic availability?
Like Herbert's Mentat, or a broader example: any spy network. They are only as good as the information they receive. Doesn't matter how much information you are receiving if it is all false. False information leads to false conclusions.
Everyone in Ishual is taught, from birth until some later point of 'absolute' knowledge. You cannot simply just "know" everything, it takes time and energy. If you want to teach a child, say, advanced multivariable calculus, you would start with basic skills (algebra mainly) until he or she was ready for the next step.
Thus the millennial task, the training, the need for a hierarchy. Some form of control must be exerted to properly teach and mold each new generation of Dunyain. Carnal pleasures must be squashed, minds must be trained, emotions extinguished, bodies mastered.
In Ishual, I'd imagine that measure is unceasing. One does not suddenly become all knowing, all Dunyain. Each achievement is overshadowed by the achievements to come.
Without some trickle down of information, everyone would go "mad" like Kellhus "did". Information overload is apparently possible even for the Dunyain. The most elder Dunyain, the ones with the most experience, would be the only ones who have had enough time to fully be able to comprehend their own task. This, again, necessitates the need for some hierarchy.
I think the idea of 'ruling' the nonmen would have to be adjusted in wording. That's an end in itself sort of goal, which is nothing to do with Dunyain. As the Maithenet ('scuse the spelling) passage says about him and it applies to the rest of the Dunyain, they have no interest in power for it's own sake.
Unless that power furthered the Project. Unless the absence of that power caused an end to the shortest path.
That's not 'ruling', as I understand the word. 'Ruling' isn't a means to an end word, in how it commonly seems to be deployed. On the other hand Scott might use that word in the book if it were the case and he describing. But I think it's use would obscure the subject matter.
Everything is a means to an end if the subject is Dunyain. Did Kell set out to rule the three seas? By your argument, no, because his goal was to save the world (or something like that). But does he rule? Yes. He is the leader of the whole shebang. Ruling is just as easily a means to an end as it is the goal, it just depends on what the original goal of said ruler is.
I would say he does not rule. He rules no more than a chess player rules his pieces.
I guess I'm trying to preserve the word 'rule', in a way, for it's familiar human feeling. I can't think of old, benevolent kings 'ruling' and consider Dunyain 'ruling' in the same way.
To sweep the pieces from the board would be nothing. While even a tyrant king clutches his property with a fierce want.
I'd have to disagree with you there, but I see your point.
The end, I think, Wilshire, is that we can safely conclude that world domination, if only for control and exclusion of variables, is part of an eventual Dunyain plan based on the... generous readings of ambiguity we've done here?
Thought I'd verb some a little more adjective on these nouns.
So I've been thinking about the Dunyain, Consult, Kellhus triad and the quest for Ishual - one we undertake from Achamian's perspective.
The Consult have been hunting the Ancient North for twenty some odd years, searching for any word of the Dunyain. They've gotten pretty much the same intel as Cnaiur, Achamian, and the world got as of The Thousandfold Thought and the Compendium - excepting the Consult has full range in the North.
How long would it really take the Consult to find Ishual? This opens up into discussions of the relations between the Consult and the Nonmen? Are there boundaries?
I'm going to guess that in force, the Dunyain would do little more than surprise the Consult, even with the Thousand Thousand Halls.
Thoughts?
Madness - Just a clarification.
On an earlier page you referenced Aurang's reference to the Nonman leader of Ishterebinth. You quoted it as Nil'giccas, but that's not what he said. He referenced Nin'Ciljiras.
But then in WLW someone w/ the Great Ordeal (I forget who) references Ishterebinth again and puts it back to Nil'giccas as if they wrongly believe he still leads there.
Since we know that NG as Cleric is certainly not there anymore by TJE, what does this all mean?
Since Aurang's quote is in either TWP or TTT does this not strongly imply that Cleric has not been leading Ishterebinth this whole time? It feels that way to me. But if that is the case it suggests to me that Cleric left the mansion totally on his own and only then could possibly have been found by Kellhus and placed with the Skin Eaters. Kellhus wouldn't have traveled to Ishterebinth if he has at all until long after Aurang's quote about Nin-Ciljiras leading.
The only other possibility I can think of is that Aurang's quote is somehow misleading. It implies that Nin'Ciljiras is ruling there, but I suppose it doesn't prove it outright.
You're completely right. Nin'Ciljiras is the leader Aurang references in TWP. It does imply that Nil'giccas has been wandering for a long time.
The Nonmen Emissary is actually the one who suggests that "Nil'giccas" sends his regards to the Ordeal.
Quote from: MadnessThe Nonmen Emissary is actually the one who suggests that "Nil'giccas" sends his regards to the Ordeal.
Hmmm...that seems like it means something, but I'm at a loss as to what.
We assume that Kellhus knows about Cleric being w/ the Skin Eaters, but we don't know it for certain. I think it's a safe assumption though.
So why would the Nonman emissary give his regards from Nil-giccas if he no longer leads and hasn't for some time especially if Kellhus knows this? Do the Nonmen not realize that Kellhus knows about where Nil-giccas is? If so, is this some kind of formality or is it some kind of deception?
Personally, I've been on the deception wagon until this most recent bender of ideas.
Kellhus must know about Cleric being Nil'giccas - there is no other conceivable way for the Captain to be Cleric's book otherwise. Kellhus would need to feed the Captain information about his Nonman companion.
If the Nonmen still retain their own agency, then perhaps it means that they don't intend to support the Ordeal in any way until the Humans honour the Niom and take Dagliash - they're waiting for Kellhus to show convince them he can win before siding against the Consult.
However, if the Consult rule, or even treat, openly in Ishterebinth, as Nil'giccas seems to suggest to Achamian in the Library, then the lie takes on a different character.
I really do assume that Kellhus knows that Cleric is Nil'giccas and he no longer resides in Ishterebinth.
Lol, thirdly, if a Dunyain rules in Ishterebinth... well, that is something else entirely.
Quote from: MadnessThe end, I think, Wilshire, is that we can safely conclude that world domination, if only for control and exclusion of variables, is part of an eventual Dunyain plan based on the... generous readings of ambiguity we've done here?Thoughts:
Thought I'd verb some a little more adjective on these nouns.
So I've been thinking about the Dunyain, Consult, Kellhus triad and the quest for Ishual - one we undertake from Achamian's perspective.
The Consult have been hunting the Ancient North for twenty some odd years, searching for any word of the Dunyain. They've gotten pretty much the same intel as Cnaiur, Achamian, and the world got as of The Thousandfold Thought and the Compendium - excepting the Consult has full range in the North.
How long would it really take the Consult to find Ishual? This opens up into discussions of the relations between the Consult and the Nonmen? Are there boundaries?
I'm going to guess that in force, the Dunyain would do little more than surprise the Consult, even with the Thousand Thousand Halls.
Thoughts?
I feel like hunting in the north for clues towards the Dunyain would be rather fruitless, after all, nobody really knew about the Dunyain and certainly none of those that did were left wandering the northern wastes, passing down tales of mysterious people in the mountains.
The forests with the most game would be in the south, where some hints and clues about the dunyain yet remain hidden. Perhaps they even went to the library. Why not?
There is always the Nonmen to be concerned with though. They knew that Nil' was rutting around in the south , but he's crazy anyway so no need to question him. Maybe there remained some information remained to be found in Ishterebinth, but this would go back to the foundations of the Dunyain, and whether it was in any way involved with the Dunyain.
In any case, Ishual was a rather well guarded secret, I don't know if the consult found out anything or not.
However, this doesn't mean the Consult didn't find the Dunyain. I think its very likely did. From a birds' eye view, a castle sitting between two mountains, big enough to rise above the forest landscape, wouldn't be so hard to spot. They didn't need to know what they were even looking for. The act of looking would have been good enough, even a needle in a hay stack could be found if you just remove each piece of hay one by one until the needle if found.
Now for the Dunyain and the Consult. I can't say. Sure if the Consult came in, guns blazing, swarms of sranc and bashrag, Quya and all that, then the Dunyain would lose a pitched battle. But nothing is so simple. There had to be contingency plans set in place.
An assault on a Dunyain controlled fortress would be devastating. The consult would pay dearly, and I remain unconvinced that all of them were slain. But I like the Dunyain so I'm leaning towards their survival.
Inchoroi have a lot of experience fighting interior battles, having fought the Nonmen through the Ark for a couple hundred years - if they remember, that is.
Even in the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, where the Dunyain have complete advantage, I think they would lose, without help or by wiles...
Also, the Consult know after TTT that the Demua mountain range is the go-to location for Ishual.
Just to add, and I might be totally off on a tangent with this, but when we had finished the first trilogy, and were eagerly awaiting The Aspect Emperor, I seem to remember we had a few indications (hints from the author) that Achamian would meet a female Dunyain, who would travel with him in the far North. If this is true, then perhaps Achamian is shortly to find her. For mine, it is the Consult have destroyed Ishual; this is totally consistent with the Consult's search at the end of The Prince of Nothing; in addition, Kellhus had no percentage in confronting his Dunyain fellows, whom (we assume) only wanted to be left alone. The Dunyain are peerless fighters, but against the Consult's numbers and sorcery they would have stood no chance (they should have stood a chance of course, by simply insisting that sorcery is impossible). Maybe the Consult took a few Dunyain prisoners (these might prove to be far more deadly adversaries to the Ordeal than Shaeonnara).
I think the female Dunyain is Serwa and not some survival from Ishual which means that Akka and Mimara will end up to Ishterebinth and meet her,and Sorweel,there.
Quote from: Mog KellhusI think the female Dunyain is Serwa and not some survival from Ishual which means that Akka and Mimara will end up to Ishterebinth and meet her,and Sorweel,there.Agreed. She is, after all, half Dunyain.Quote from: MadnessInchoroi have a lot of experience fighting interior battles, having fought the Nonmen through the Ark for a couple hundred years - if they remember, that is.
If they remember... hmm. I'd have to say its something that I haven't really thought about before. The Nonmen, as its said, were not meant to be immortal and so went mad with the too many memories that their brains could not handle. What makes the Inchoroi immune to this effect? I suppose it can be explained away by the Tekne , but its still an interesting thought.
Also, I agree that they would lose, but surely a few could have escaped. Why not?
I guess sranc would be better than blood hounds so simply running away wouldnt work.
Heh.
It's so obvious how badly all of us want to see more Dunyain.
The more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards the Consult having destroyed Ishual than Kellhus. The opening line of the book about how one cannot war against a secret is potentially very telling. They've been looking since the Holy War, and they didn't have to look very far.
Mimara tells Acka in WLW something like how Esmenet had told her that the only thing that scared the Consult more than Kellhus was the idea that there could be more like him. They were obsessed with finding Ishual.
I really hope that somehow we see more Dunyain whether there were a few survivors or whether it wasn't the Consult or what have you.
That quote "the only thing they fear more than Kellhus is an army of him" or something along those lines, is one of the original reasons I thought the Consult destroyed Ishual. Still do, in fact.
I feel like Kell destroying Ishual sounds too much like hate for me to consider it without more information.
Lol, I do remember the female Dunyain thing, anor. Popular theory used to be Moenghus' brood partner or... Kellhus' Mother... but I too think that Theo and Serwa satisfy the "female" Dunyain teasers.
However, the Dunyain remain a central aspect of this mystery - including the specific narrative lacing that Trisk and Wilshire are mentioning.
Whether historically or presently, they have answers... and we and Achamian will have them :evil: .
Quote from: TriskeleHeh.the quote is: "one cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten"
It's so obvious how badly all of us want to see more Dunyain.
The more I think about it the more I'm leaning towards the Consult having destroyed Ishual than Kellhus. The opening line of the book about how one cannot war against a secret is potentially very telling. They've been looking since the Holy War, and they didn't have to look very far.
Mimara tells Acka in WLW something like how Esmenet had told her that the only thing that scared the Consult more than Kellhus was the idea that there could be more like him. They were obsessed with finding Ishual.
I really hope that somehow we see more Dunyain whether there were a few survivors or whether it wasn't the Consult or what have you.
and Ishuals walls are no longer raised.
And what about the timing of Seswatha's dream that led to the "not being forgotten" of Ishual's walls? Did Seswatha, as an almost self moving soul, wanted this to happen?
Seswatha as a self moving soul? Not in the Dunyain sense I assure you. Kellhus might be have been "almost" self moving at one point, but the Dunyain are/were still years and years away from achieving their goal. I doubt that some random schoolman from before the first apocalypse was even sniffing at obtaining The Absolute.
As for timing of dreams and revealing Ishual, a good point. Will need further consideration.
I agree, that's why I said "almost", my mistake; I should have said "soul in transit through dreams of gnostic sorcerers across time".
Lol, I really enjoy metaconception across languages :). Never heard a better description for Seswatha's current embodiment. You're suggesting, Feanor, that Seswatha as he exists as an incarnation in the Dreams has agency himself, the ability to make decisions and affect change?
Change to the 'current' which inevitably effects 'future'. Would he violate the cycle of before and after? Could what came after, 'Dream Seswatha', effect what came before? If before is the past remembered, then the dreams the Mandate have are the Past, and Seswatha could manipulte the dreams, manipulate the past from the future.
Just a thought.
Yeah, Madness, something like that. When the Scarlet Spires tortured Achamian, he wasn't the strong man, but Seswatha. He sowed some will. And who else is deciding the timing of the dreams? I think that's a kind of self, showing what he thinks it must be shown to whom he considers (and when and where). Of course, maybe I'm wrong and the one who's handling this information (the what, the when, the who and the where) is someone else... but who?
But I don't see the violation of the cycle of before and after here. If Seswatha manipulate the Dreams, its' just that, a lie about the past to change te present/future. The past doesn't change because of that deception. Or perhaps I misunderstood you Wilshire.
Supposing the Dreams change, reflecting the circumstances of the Dreamer, then I can imagine that Seswatha's life, again, is a cypher. That is, the "ultimate existence of the Dreams," their whole narrative, could simply exist like Plato's Forms, without agency, and Achamian's global position or the ebb and flow of his daily circumstances determine which Dream of X he dreams.
You know... people in our world posit that there are individuals who can access the total knowledge of everything a human mind has ever known ever, if not the sum-total knowledge of existence itself. Edgar Cayce, I think, is the most famous proponent of this idea.
Maybe this is what Seswatha's "Heart" actually is... a living harddrive, RAM, an OS to the Outside.
Both can be. In both there is a sum of "information", (Ses/Kayu lifetime memories). In the one that I described, some self, (Seswatha's reminiscent soul? what about Nau Kayuti part?), decides what piece of info to show, to whom and depending when and where. In the other, the one you bring out now, it's in the dreamer the ability to focus on that piece of info, unconsciously I asume. Interesting. I'm starting to consider your conjecture likelier.
What you said about accesing that whole amount of data remind me of Sheldrake and his morphogenetic fields. But then again, gnostic sorcerers are not mice, and they don't seem to dream the same dream, specially Akka. Maybe there is something in between.
Lol, I'm only vaguely familiar with Sheldrake's work and most of it is by proxy. However, from what I understand, Morphogenetic Fields are exactly analogous to this "sum-total body of knowledge existing somewhere" that we are talking about.
You just blew my mind
Note of Interest: Sheldrake killed this thread.
QuoteNote of Interest: Sheldrake killed this thread.
He killed his own thread too :) with no chance of reincarnation.
Lol. The no-dog did it.You just pipped me!!
Dunyain and Nonman--the first thing that comes to mind is a quya held in a chorae cage, forced to be a Dunyain breeder for the last 2 millenia.
I have to throw my vote in with the Dunyain have hierarchy party. I'm thinking it's even more than that--the pragma pass down the secret mission, pragma to pragma, that Seswatha gave them: to avoid sorcery, to select for the few (using this old wathi doll), to name all the kids anasurimbor.
Madness, I love your idea about the Dunyain reforming erratic nonmen with new personalities!
Isn't it strange that 'Ishuäl' is an Ihrimsu word and not Kuniuric?
I don't think the Dunyain themselves know of any secret mission, that kind of knowledge would interfere with their program, which coincidentally selects for the Few. And we know of Dunyain that are not called Anasurimbor. Whoever sent them to Ishual (or the first generation of Dunyain) had them destroy any records or knowledge that would interfere with their breeding program, that includes sorcery and anything about their true mission (supposing that they had one other than attaining the Absolute), I think.
But props for coming up with the Foundation parallel Madness, I can definitely see some inspiration there if in fact it turns out that Seswatha created them.
Lol or her ;).
But +1, SOA.
I love the nerdanels that once you get into Ishual's Thousand Thousand Halls, the Dunyain are in a Battle Royale Cannibal Deathmatch. Also, the one that started this thread in my mind, that the Dunyain have previously conditioned Ishterebinth.
I'm afraid the mystery of the 'Dunyain feminine' doesn't come to the fore until The Aspect-Emperor...
Lol or her ;).
But +1, SOA.
I love the nerdanels that once you get into Ishual's Thousand Thousand Halls, the Dunyain are in a Battle Royale Cannibal Deathmatch. Also, the one that started this thread in my mind, that the Dunyain have previously conditioned Ishterebinth.
Sorry, Bakker's misogyny seems to have rubbed on me :p. Seriously though, in the long run i doubt the Dunyain would bother with anything outside their interest and the only thing they might want from the NonMen is genetic material (which they probably already have through the Anasurimbor line).
Speaking of Dunyain women. I thought this comment from Bakker was very interesting,QuoteI'm afraid the mystery of the 'Dunyain feminine' doesn't come to the fore until The Aspect-Emperor...
I've seen speculation that he was referring to Kellhus's children here, but I disagree, I think there is a reveal coming concerning Dunyain women now that Achamian and Mimara are in Ishual.
@ Nskoghar - I have no evidence, but just a growing feeling that Kellhus was deceived about the true nature of the Dunyain. They conditioned him for a specific task while hiding many secrets. Who knows? TUC will tell us!
@ SkiesOfAzel - I don't think that the Dunyain would have any problem with one tyrant soul. Their whole mission (apparently) has been to breed/train/experiment to one day produce the God--abnegation of self-interest seems like a corner stone of their way. Or did I read you wrong? I agree with Curethan that becoming God just seems pointless to me, the point where totality and nullity are indistinguishable.
I think they do know, they just don't care. Their motivation was fear of the unknown in the first place and you can only fight the unknown by make the world static and finite since you can't really make yourself infinite. Simple (and very human) narcisism, their whole existence is an irony.
Wondering if one of Bakker's long term plans for impressing the reader with Dunyain intelligence is to give us a measure by how much more awesome the nonmen are. 30,000 years of studying the gnosis might crumple Kellhus at the gates of Min-Uroikas.nah, if knowledge and experience were cumulative ad infinitum there would be no erratics. Nonmen don't spend 30,000 years in study, they spend 30,000 years with their head pressed against a wall trying not to think. Their brains and souls are not honed tools the way Dunyain do it, so they wouldn't spend 30,000 years sharpening a mind or soul on a whetstone of study. Additionally, to extend the metaphor, sharpen a blade enough and eventually your blade is gone, sort of like going erratic.
About the Nonmen magic points, the Gnosis is a tool that hasn't evolved for thousands of years. They are awesome with the Gnosis not because they have honed their minds with logic, but because as philosophers they have a natural affinity for the abstract. It's easier for them to recall their soul's past even if their brain can't store their own memories. Kellhus is a special case, since he has embraced both science and the abstract. He is conceptually (and probably even genetically) a hybrid.
I hope so very much too, Nskoghar... So much Dune to riff off of with Dunyain women.
At this point it could go either way. Which is interesting because that is one of the main issues in interpreting Plato's Republic because it allows for both gender equality or gender subordination...[/quote]
And then based on Dune:(click to show/hide)
Perhaps Ishuäl birthed the Dûnyain the way the Ark birthed the Inchoroi.At that point, why don't we just say that Ishual/Thousand Thousand Halls IS the Ark, and the Horns broke off and landed farther north than the rest of the ship.
At this point it could go either way. Which is interesting because that is one of the main issues in interpreting Plato's Republic because it allows for both gender equality or gender subordination...
And then based on Dune:(click to show/hide)
You should check out that thread :P.
Kellhus is a descendant of Su-Joroit?
Kellhus is a descendant of Su-Joroit?
Possibly. Your logic makes some sense. Do we know much about Su-Joroit other than that one anecdote? Maybe he conceived a child...
Truth - except that we're maniacs who demand to know the intricacies of Nonman socioculture ;).
Perhaps Ishuäl birthed the Dûnyain the way the Ark birthed the Inchoroi.